Is Josh really getting the coaching he needs?

[dickleyjones]

8 hours ago, Stallions said:

Is there any doubt in your mind that Josh needs more practical, game relevant PRACTICE??  There should be no melt-down events in any game if he’s totally prepared to play the position.  I’ve seen that type of play from Rob, J.P. and EJ.  It’s a red flag for even the rawest rookie.

Where is Allen’s QB coach Ken Dorsey?  He supposedly helped Cam Newton with the Panthers. 

Josh has been working for 2 years in CA with Jordan Palmer’s private Company “QB Summit”.  They stress footwork and include ‘yoga on the beach’!!  Jordan Palmer completed 11 passes in the NFL career and is really a spiritual guru rather than a coach/trainer.   Josh has said he’s going back for a 3^rd year.

 

Per Jordan’s web-site:

 

The quarterback rooms I’ve been in have been filled with names such as Jason Campbell, Jay Cutler, Blaine Gabbert, Chad Henne, Carson Palmer, EJ Manuel, Josh Mccown, Jimmy Clausen and many others. I’ve lifted with linemen, ran with wideouts and studied with coaches. The experiences I’ve gained over my career have shaped me into the coach I am today.  The emotional side of the game is the common thread that is woven into every aspect of the QB position. We help QBs to self-generate confidence, handle success and adversity, and challenge themselves to use their platform for good.

 

Personally, I think it’s all BS! 

Your first sentence says it all. He needs practice and the coaches are giving it to him even if it decreases their chance of winning. How else can you learn to play vs the elite strength and speed that playoffs bring? This was the most difficult challenge of this young guy's life and the coaches put the game in his hands. He had it won several times, made some mistakes, and overall gained the crucial practice you mentioned. I'm betting everything is going to look slower to Josh going forward and that he will learn to make better decisions and better judgements of the opposing defender's abilities.

[tumaro02]

Considering his significant improvement in nearly all if not all of the relevant stats in year two over year one I would say he is getting the coaching he needs. If his 2019 stats were offered as a measuring stone BEFORE the season all would have been well satisfied. Now that the season is over and in retrospect, some claim to have wanted more. He will never satisfy those people who have a Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers image in their head because they were conditioned to view those profiles as the standard. Even PFF has had to recalculate the way they view Allen. The Farve model seems to be what we might expect from him moving forward and I would be well satisfied if that ends up happening. If he improves as much in year 3 as he did in year 2 he will silence even more critics. He will never silence them all. Too many have much invested in his demise, along with many on this forum.

[dpberr]

Keep in mind Josh Allen is a young man learning on the job on how to be a professional football player. In some ways, he's no different from an employer bringing on a talented high school grad or college grad to work in the office or the shop.  You might have the most talented carpenter prodigy in seven counties worth of vocational schools.  However, he's still going to struggle.  You have to hone the talent into skill, and experience removes hesitation and promotes confidence.  

 

A lot of the teachable moments will come through failure and often under pressure.  

 

I think the wildcard game against the Texans was an amazing teaching opportunity and a lesson in adversity. He will progress because of it.  

 

Same really goes for Ford, Knox, Oliver.  I expect all of the rookies to be more polished in year two, doing a lot less dumb things.  

 

 

[Casey D]

4 minutes ago, dpberr said:

Keep in mind Josh Allen is a young man learning on the job on how to be a professional football player. In some ways, he's no different from an employer bringing on a talented high school grad or college grad to work in the office or the shop.  You might have the most talented carpenter prodigy in seven counties worth of vocational schools.  However, he's still going to struggle.  You have to hone the talent into skill, and experience removes hesitation and promotes confidence.  

 

A lot of the teachable moments will come through failure and often under pressure.  

 

I think the wildcard game against the Texans was an amazing teaching opportunity and a lesson in adversity. He will progress because of it.  

 

Same really goes for Ford, Knox, Oliver.  I expect all of the rookies to be more polished in year two, doing a lot less dumb things.  

 

 

Totally agree.  Not playing in a major college program, Josh never got any real coaching until he hit the NFL-- same is true for Oliver.  That's why he was a project as he had no real training to play the most difficult position in sports.  Given where he started, the kid has made remarkable strides, and I can't understand how some   people can't see this.  I've watched this team for 45 years, and I know a fraud from the real deal, and Allen is the real deal.  His athletic ability, combined with his intelligence, determination to win, heart and charisma give him everything he needs to be great.  For those that can't see that, you will eventually.  He'll be more than good enough to win a SB if the rest of the team has sufficient talent.  I know we live in a world of instant results and gratification, but that's not how it was ever going to be with Josh.    

[buffaloboyinATL]

9 hours ago, Stallions said:

Is there any doubt in your mind that Josh needs more practical, game relevant PRACTICE??  There should be no melt-down events in any game if he’s totally prepared to play the position.  I’ve seen that type of play from Rob, J.P. and EJ.  It’s a red flag for even the rawest rookie.

Where is Allen’s QB coach Ken Dorsey?  He supposedly helped Cam Newton with the Panthers. 

Josh has been working for 2 years in CA with Jordan Palmer’s private Company “QB Summit”.  They stress footwork and include ‘yoga on the beach’!!  Jordan Palmer completed 11 passes in the NFL career and is really a spiritual guru rather than a coach/trainer.   Josh has said he’s going back for a 3^rd year.

 

 

So our QB spends his off season continuing to try and get better and hires a private coach to help him continue to improve and that's a bad thing? Consider the alternative, he could spend the off season filming commercials for Progressive, Hulu, etc... 

[Rc2catch]

Some of the stupid decisions Josh takes heat for are the same things everyone loves Mahomes for. The wild throws across their body running to the right and throwing over the middle. Mahomes throws some dumb passes that don’t always work too. I watched him throw one across his body over the middle against the raiders and it was an easy pick the guy dropped. 
Some of Mahomes weird flips of the ball when under pressure could just as easily be fumbles. But... they did work so he’s praised where Allen’s have not so it’s fair to throw some shade his way. Mahomes is playing at a higher level in a better passing scheme so don’t take it as I’m putting Allen on the same tier right now. It’s a young guy thing to try and force a play. And sometimes when it works it’s amazing. We could have Kyle Orton back there sliding after running 8 yards when we need 10 cause he’s scared to be hit. Allen deserves his criticism but we shouldn’t pretend like other quarterbacks don’t do some of those scratch your head kind of plays. Their games are just more polished and they’ve established themselves where Allen has not yet. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

The coaching staff failed Josh Allen in that 2nd half. The Bills were up 16-0 and Josh  still threw it 46 times. He’s not that type of QB and he never will be IMO. His usage rate is way too high.

 

Josh attempts should be no higher than 25-30. Get that run game going with Singletary and make him the focal point of the offense. That will open up the play action and can we please put some screens in the playbook!!  

 

May we inject a few facts? 

 

Through the end of the 3Q - which ended with the Bills still leading 16-8 - Josh Allen had completed 16 of 25 passes (64%). 

 

Therefore, of 46 passes, he threw 21 passes in the 4Q and OT, after they lost the lead. 

 

Now, I can critique the playcalling in the 4Q and OT - I think they should have "Motored" more - but frankly, if the Bills have to limit Josh's passes to 30 per game to win, they need to move on at QB.

[BigBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

May we inject a few facts? 

 

Through the end of the 3Q - which ended with the Bills still leading 16-8 - Josh Allen had completed 16 of 25 passes (64%). 

 

Therefore, of 46 passes, he threw 21 passes in the 4Q and OT, after they lost the lead. 

 

Now, I can critique the playcalling in the 4Q and OT - I think they should have "Motored" more - but frankly, if the Bills have to limit Josh's passes to 30 per game to win, they need to move on at QB.

 

The other solution may be to use him like Lamar Jackson but without his speed, but he has power. Push him into a passer who rushes knowing he won't lost past his rookie contract but see if the result can be different because at this point I will never see him as a pure passer. I don't think anyone could see him passing 40 times and the Bills winning. He's not a gun-slinger for touchdowns type of QB.

[ArtVandalay]

14 hours ago, Stallions said:

Is there any doubt in your mind that Josh needs more practical, game relevant PRACTICE??  There should be no melt-down events in any game if he’s totally prepared to play the position.  I’ve seen that type of play from Rob, J.P. and EJ.  It’s a red flag for even the rawest rookie.

Where is Allen’s QB coach Ken Dorsey?  He supposedly helped Cam Newton with the Panthers. 

Josh has been working for 2 years in CA with Jordan Palmer’s private Company “QB Summit”.  They stress footwork and include ‘yoga on the beach’!!  Jordan Palmer completed 11 passes in the NFL career and is really a spiritual guru rather than a coach/trainer.   Josh has said he’s going back for a 3^rd year.

 

Per Jordan’s web-site:

 

The quarterback rooms I’ve been in have been filled with names such as Jason Campbell, Jay Cutler, Blaine Gabbert, Chad Henne, Carson Palmer, EJ Manuel, Josh Mccown, Jimmy Clausen and many others. I’ve lifted with linemen, ran with wideouts and studied with coaches. The experiences I’ve gained over my career have shaped me into the coach I am today.  The emotional side of the game is the common thread that is woven into every aspect of the QB position. We help QBs to self-generate confidence, handle success and adversity, and challenge themselves to use their platform for good.

 

Personally, I think it’s all BS! 

Tom Brady's guru and mentor Tom Martinez didn't play a single snap in the NFL nor ever coach in the NFL.

[warrior9]

I think people expect the world of Josh Allen and fail to realize, Josh is who he is as a football player. 

 

Josh has absolutely STUD moments and can carry a team on his back. He makes throws that maybe 2 other QB's can make (see the throw to Devin Singletary against Hou). He is an ultra competitor that can win the NFL. He is also the QB that will make bad throws and bad decisions by trying to force things/plays. I don't know that he'll ever be "polished." We have to live with that. I think Josh's good outweigh the bad. 

 

I love Josh Allen and his game. I'll live with him taking risks because I feel as though our defense will be able to keep us in many games. 

[Nextmanup]

Why do Bills fans want to look at anyone and everywhere OTHER THAN JOSH ALLEN HIMSELF to explain Josh Allen's performance? 

 

I don't get it.

 

It's like your car won't start, so you accuse the maid of not washing the kitchen floor well enough.

 

WTF?
 

 

[BillsfanAZ]

Allen needs more experience and offensive playmakers. He is the least experienced of all the QB's in his draft class and has made dumb mistakes. He went to junior college and then Wyoming. His development is way behind Mayfield, Darnold, Jackson, and Rosen. He progressed from his rookie season and he will progress again.  Allen picking up 4th downs with his legs and 4th quarter comebacks comes from the same competitive fire that causes him to try to do too much.  Singletary, Ford, and Knox will progress too. Another veteran offensive playmaker such as TE or WR that Allen can trust will help. The Bills need to progress along the Oline as well. There were too many miscommunications and defenders running free at Allen. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

15 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

The coaching staff failed Josh Allen in that 2nd half. The Bills were up 16-0 and Josh  still threw it 46 times. He’s not that type of QB and he never will be IMO. His usage rate is way too high.

 

Josh attempts should be no higher than 25-30. Get that run game going with Singletary and make him the focal point of the offense. That will open up the play action and can we please put some screens in the playbook!!  

I think that Mcdermot and company don't think singletary is an every down back.

[Chaos]

There is a strategic part of this question and a tactical part. 

First the strategic part. There is more than one approach to coaching a young QB.  The Raven's built an unconventional offense around their unconventional QB, and it has worked out very well so far. 

The Bills seem  committed to developing Allen into a conventional QB.   This has not worked as well as with the Ravens, but it is working out so far as well.  The reality is that the Bills have among the weakest WR's, RB groups, TE's and offensive lines among all the playoff teams.  Even so, Allen led the rag tag group to the second highest total points in regulation among all the wild card weekend teams.  This was without the benefit of particularly good starting position too. 

Allen has unconventional talents. There is an argument that an approach more similar to the Ravens might make sense.  But it is certainly less than 100% certain. 

Tactical Coaching is something else.  I think we can assume that no coaches Allen to drop back 15 yards behind the LOS when pressured.  But since I am not in the rooms, I don't know if Allen is being given proper advice on how to handle these situations, or simply can't execute.  

I do know this though.  Allen's college experience is much less.  Hear are his passing attempts in College vs the other young guns. 

Allen 649
Jackson 1086
Mahomes 1349
Darnold 846

Mayfield 1497

Add to the discrepency that the Defense's Allen faced were the furthers from the NFL of the group.

Not making excuses for Allen, but part of learning is game reps.  And that includes college game reps. It is reasonable to believe Allen has more room for improvement than the others simply because  he has less experience. 
 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Chaos

[BaaadThingsMan]

Josh is coming soon

[Bruce Harper]

I thought he made a lot of progress this year.  As a Jets fan, I think the Bills have top-notch coaching.  He is who he is.  You are going to have to live with his weaknesses, along with his strengths.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Bruce Harper

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Bruce Harper said:

As a Jets fan, I think the Bills have top-notch coaching.  He is who he is.  You are going to have to live with his weaknesses, along with his strengths.

As a Bills fan, I can safely tell you that you are wrong. 

[Bruce Harper]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

As a Bills fan, I can safely tell you that you are wrong. 

 

I will defer to your familiarity but what I see (as someone who only sees him a couple of times a year) is a guy who led his team to the playoffs,  who completed nearly 60% of his passes and had a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio, improving significantly over his rookie year.   Based on that, I'm inclined to think the coaching staff did a pretty good job with him.  But you guys see him every week so I will shut my trap.  

[BigBillsFan]

The problem with the argument of "Josh" led his team to the playoffs is you would have to believe if he was replaced another QB couldn't do the same thing.

 

Let's use the 7-9 Raiders and the 10-6 Bills. I don't think anyone would think if David Carr was on this team we would be worse, but in fact be better. We certainly would have won the Browns game.

 

Even better is Drew Brees from 2014-2017 when the Saints went 7-9 every year. Do I think that Drew Brees would have done better than Allen? Of course.

 

A QB can only influence a team for about 4-6 wins above average replacement (e.g. Cassel in NE), but they certainly can be responsible for losses from turn-overs (e.g. Winston in TB).

 

A better question is are we better with Gardner Minshew over Allen. I'm not saying we are, but if the question could be asked then he didn't lead the team, it was the defense and limiting turn-overs.

 

To the OP's question, no I don't think he is. I think Daboll is a clown. The Eagles game showed me he has no idea what he's doing.

Edited January 7, 2020 by BigBillsFan

[DuckyBoys]

I think getting him better play makers for 2020 will make the whole situation better.  I'm sure he did start stressing and trying to do it all in that second half.  Then you have some negative plays and things start to snowball in his mind.  With more experience he'll calm down some more and once you surround him with better talent I think we'll see more stable Josh Allen.  Guy wants to win and yeah he tried some over the top stuff (hurdled another defender).  I like Singeltary but clearly we can use another young back with upper echelon athletic talent.  We dont have a big physical pounder at rb not do we have a break away threat.  Get a physical WR who will allow Beasley to me the 3rd down slot guy and Brown to me more of the take the top of wr.  Listening to the end of the year presser I think they know they need more complementary football around Josh Allen.