Stallions Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) ** UPDATE** Posters have furnished Revenue numbers for the Bills in 2019 - see below-! The 2019 version of the Bills drew (tickets sold) 570,713 fans to New Era Field. That was an average of 68,839 per game. The only game close to a sell-out was in week #4 vs. the Patriots with a crowd of 70,317. Current capacity is 71,857. The Bills averaged over 8 games a 95.8% capacity rating which was 16th in the NFL. Among the 16 below us were the Jets, Giants, Dallas and Green Bay. GO BILLS! Edited December 31, 2019 by Stallions 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB48 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 so with a much better HOME schedule next season will ticket prices increase dramatically? That's the only way the team can make more $ with 95.8% seats sold?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Stallions said: The 2019 version of the Bills drew (tickets sold) 570,713 fans to New Era Field. That was an average of 68,839 per game. The only game close to a sell-out was in week #4 vs. the Patriots with a crowd of 70,317. Current capacity is 71,857. The Bills averaged over 8 games a 95.8% capacity rating which was 16th in the NFL. Among the 16 below us were the Jets, Giants, Dallas and Green Bay. GO BILLS! Green Bay? All we hear is that all tickets are spoken for for the next 100 seasons 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB48 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I have to add that the Bills were ranked 28th in NFL REVENUE for the 2019 season at $386 mil. Dallas was at $950 mil and the Pats 2nd at $600 mil. The Pegula's rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 37 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Green Bay? All we hear is that all tickets are spoken for for the next 100 seasons Attendance, not sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, ArtVandalay said: Attendance, not sales. They don't want to see that team in person? They prefer to eat the season tickets? Edited December 31, 2019 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 40 minutes ago, LB48 said: I have to add that the Bills were ranked 28th in NFL REVENUE for the 2019 season at $386 mil. Dallas was at $950 mil and the Pats 2nd at $600 mil. The Pegula's rule! I'd love to see the profit margin. Dallas has to pay for that ridiculous stadium and the Bills are just nickel and diming some renovations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said: I'd love to see the profit margin. Dallas has to pay for that ridiculous stadium and the Bills are just nickel and diming some renovations. This info, "operating income", is published every year by Forbes. The Cowboys destroy the Bills every year. last year it was vey a factor of 5. The Bills margin was 32nd in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: This info, "operating income", is published every year by Forbes. The Cowboys destroy the Bills every year. last year it was vey a factor of 5. The Bills margin was 32nd in the NFL. I wouldn't expect the Bills to top them but the gap to be less. How does Forbes publish this? Is it estimates? They are private companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Just now, ArtVandalay said: I wouldn't expect the Bills to top them but the gap to be less. How does Forbes publish this? Is it estimates? They are private companies. They have done it every Fall for years. I don't know how they do it, but the NFL teams don't challenge their numbers. The Cowboys are massive earners, despite the stadium debt. The Bills make Jerry Jones pin money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Billieve Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ArtVandalay said: I wouldn't expect the Bills to top them but the gap to be less. How does Forbes publish this? Is it estimates? They are private companies. Most Forbes lists are not very rigorous. Often just a single piece of data from publicly available information. Most of their richest person lists are created using the sum of stock value without examining debts or other assets. They will sometimes make adjustments if people complain and offer evidence but this rarely happens. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 4 hours ago, LB48 said: so with a much better HOME schedule next season will ticket prices increase dramatically? That's the only way the team can make more $ with 95.8% seats sold?? Pricing power in that outdated stadium with fans exposed to the elements is minimal. A few more attractive games could see somewhat higher pricing, but not by a whole lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: They have done it every Fall for years. I don't know how they do it, but the NFL teams don't challenge their numbers. The Cowboys are massive earners, despite the stadium debt. The Bills make Jerry Jones pin money. Bills, although last #28 in revenue at $386 MM, are actually 18th in Operating Income with $82 MM just under KC. Middle of the pack. Very good operation, an improvement from the revenue ranking I expected from them running lean in comparison. Again, this is Forbes and private companies so this is likely estimates. https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#header:operatingIncome_sortreverse:true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 minute ago, ArtVandalay said: Bills, although last #28 in revenue at $386 MM, are actually 18th in Operating Income with $82 MM just under KC. Middle of the pack. Very good operation, an improvement from the revenue ranking I expected from them running lean in comparison. Again, this is Forbes and private companies so this is likely estimates. https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#header:operatingIncome_sortreverse:true Yes, that's 1/5th the operating income of the Cowboys. So even with large debt to service, the Cowboys bury most teams in profits, and the Bills despite little if any debt, make a small fraction of Dallas's take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Yes, that's 1/5th the operating income of the Cowboys. So even with large debt to service, the Cowboys bury most teams in profits, and the Bills despite little if any debt, make a small fraction of Dallas's take. Well the Cowboys are the #1 team in the league. But, as i said before the gap is far less between the two when looking at operating income. Revenue: Dallas $950 MM vs Bills $386 MM is a $564 MM difference, Dallas ranked #1, Bills #28, 27 spot difference. Operating Income: Dallas $420 MM vs Bills $82 MM is a $338 MM difference, Dallas ranked #1, Bills ranked #18, 17 spot difference. When looking at actual operating income, Buffalo closes the gap between the two teams by $226 MM and 10 ranking spots. A significant difference. That's what I'm referring to. Obviously not near Dallas who has twice as much operating income as the #2 team the Pats with $240 MM... but the operating income figures are much closer than revenue due to the Bills low overhead. When you consider the market difference of 7.2 MM Dallas market vs Buffalo's 1.2 MM outta quite extraordinary. Buffalo actually makes more money per fan at $96 per fan than Dallas does at $89 per fan -- that's a solid and profitable operation. 12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: This info, "operating income", is published every year by Forbes. The Cowboys destroy the Bills every year. last year it was vey a factor of 5. The Bills margin was 32nd in the NFL. 18th not 32nd. @LB48 Edited December 31, 2019 by ArtVandalay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 13 hours ago, ArtVandalay said: I'd love to see the profit margin. Dallas has to pay for that ridiculous stadium and the Bills are just nickel and diming some renovations. 5 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said: Well the Cowboys are the #1 team in the league. But, as i said before the gap is far less between the two when looking at operating income. Revenue: Dallas $950 MM vs Bills $386 MM is a $564 MM difference, Dallas ranked #1, Bills #28, 27 spot difference. Operating Income: Dallas $420 MM vs Bills $82 MM is a $338 MM difference, Dallas ranked #1, Bills ranked #18, 17 spot difference. When looking at actual operating income, Buffalo closes the gap between the two teams by $226 MM and 10 ranking spots. A significant difference. That's what I'm referring to. Obviously not near Dallas who has twice as much operating income as the #2 team the Pats with $240 MM... but the operating income figures are much closer than revenue due to the Bills low overhead. When you consider the market difference of 7.2 MM Dallas market vs Buffalo's 1.2 MM outta quite extraordinary. Buffalo actually makes more money per fan at $96 per fan than Dallas does at $89 per fan -- that's a solid and profitable operation. I was responding to your first post. It would require great effort to lose money as an NFL owner. It's guaranteed income--no matter how good or bad your product is. That's why Pegula bought the team--plus it's lots of fun to own one. I wouldn't use market population as the number of fans for a team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Using the Forbes provided (estimated?) figures I took that #18 overall operating income figure a step further and ran the ROV for each team. Return on Valuation, using it as a similar metric to ROA (Return on Assets) since Forbes is providing valuations and not assets. ROV is your operating income as a percentage of your valuation, basically a way to compare the profitability of different sized/valued teams. The Buffalo Bills actually rank 7th in the NFL in Return on Valuation at 4.3%. Dallas is #1 at 7.6% followed by NE 5.9%, Hou 5.7%, NO 5.5%, Phi 4.9%, Bal 4.8%, then the Bills - remaining NFL teams are below the 4% threshold. That's outstanding. The bottom 5 ROVs are: Chi 1.8%, Cle 1.5%, GB 1.4%, Oak 1.0%, LAR 0.8%. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Yes, that's 1/5th the operating income of the Cowboys. So even with large debt to service, the Cowboys bury most teams in profits, and the Bills despite little if any debt, make a small fraction of Dallas's take. Cowboys make more in operating income than 12 teams (including the Bills) make in revenue. The Bills do a great job translating those dollars to operating income tho, plus our owner is filthy rich so it doesn't matter much. Edited December 31, 2019 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 hours ago, matter2003 said: Cowboys make more in operating income than 12 teams (including the Bills) make in revenue. The Bills do a great job translating those dollars to operating income tho, plus our owner is filthy rich so it doesn't matter much. yrs this was posted above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB48 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 6 hours ago, ArtVandalay said: Using the Forbes provided (estimated?) figures I took that #18 overall operating income figure a step further and ran the ROV for each team. Return on Valuation, using it as a similar metric to ROA (Return on Assets) since Forbes is providing valuations and not assets. ROV is your operating income as a percentage of your valuation, basically a way to compare the profitability of different sized/valued teams. The Buffalo Bills actually rank 7th in the NFL in Return on Valuation at 4.3%. Dallas is #1 at 7.6% followed by NE 5.9%, Hou 5.7%, NO 5.5%, Phi 4.9%, Bal 4.8%, then the Bills - remaining NFL teams are below the 4% threshold. That's outstanding. The bottom 5 ROVs are: Chi 1.8%, Cle 1.5%, GB 1.4%, Oak 1.0%, LAR 0.8%. THANK YOU for all the great data & information in your posts! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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