Why wasn't Duke Williams active?

[Don Otreply]

I too am a big McDermott fan, but It certainly is odd that they won’t use him, even though he has proved more useful than guys they are putting on the field every game... Oh well, guess I will have to live with Sean’s failing on this issue, ?

 

Go Bills!!!

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Buggyfresh said:

When and where? Do you have links? I have never heard one report of anyone associated with the Bills saying “he sucks” all though I have heard the reason they are playing players such as Foster and McKenzie over him are due to them wanting more speed and wanting the offense to run quicker. I have not heard one bad thing said about him and I watch Bills one drive and Good Morning Football every day and listen to multiple podcasts.

no, they don’t say “he sucks”,they phrase it this way (every week):  “Duke Williams Inactive”.

 

come on...this team has a handful of passing TDS over the past 4 weeks.  Their receivers drop a ton of balls.  And yet Williams can’t get on the field. 
 

they never “said” Zay, or Benjamin sucked but it’s obvious they concluded this.  

[Yav]

Maybe they want him for this NE so there is no tape on him? Maybe they want him for playoffs? Maybe he’s not working hard in practice and not earning a spot? 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am a coach McD fan....but I certainly dont agree with everything he does

meh. You also thought our WRs would be good last year. Sooooo

[MDH]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

We don’t need three WRs to bring the safety over.  Brown and McKenzie are fast too.
 

Foster brings more value?  3 catches on the season is value?  How many receptions do our TE’s have because of Foster?  Come on, they are barely registering in the stat sheet themselves, and the production they do have wasn’t the result of Foster being on the field. 

This was just a puzzling answer to me.  I was a big supporter of Foster, but let’s face it, he has been less valuable than Lee Smith this season so far who has one more catch than him and at least comes in on blocking assignments on down and short plays.  

 

 

I also think Duke brings near zero value. So yeah, Foster isn't super productive but between his ST value (where Duke has zero) and his deep threat value, it's more than Duke's value Imo. Duke has a good catch radius and is pretty good with contested balls but is a threat nowhere past 10 yards down the field and struggles to gain any separation. To me, fans like him because when they see him he makes plays, but they aren't watching him on all the balls that aren't going his way, which is 97% of the plays. He adds near zero value on any of those plays. And despite what fans think, those plays matter too.

 

EDIT: I'll also add that this week, when the Bills are likely to see a ton of cover 0, Foster is a must field. Despite Josh's struggles, the best way to stop cover 0 is throwing it deep outside. Foster gives the Bills that option. Hit a couple of those and they'll quickly abandon cover 0.

Edited December 21, 2019 by MDH

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I too am a big McDermott fan, but It certainly is odd that they won’t use him, even though he has proved more useful than guys they are putting on the field every game... Oh well, guess I will have to live with Sean’s failing on this issue, ?

 

Go Bills!!!

ouch

16 minutes ago, MDH said:

 

I also think Duke brings near zero value. So yeah, Foster isn't super productive but between his ST value (where Duke has zero) and his deep threat value, it's more than Duke's value Imo. Duke has a good catch radius and is pretty good with contested balls but is a threat nowhere past 10 yards down the field and struggles to gain any separation. To me, fans like him because when they see him he makes plays, but they aren't watching him on all the balls that aren't going his way, which is 97% of the plays. He adds near zero value on any of those plays. And despite what fans think, those plays matter too.

 

EDIT: I'll also add that this week, when the Bills are likely to see a ton of cover 0, Foster is a must field. Despite Josh's struggles, the best way to stop cover 0 is throwing it deep outside. Foster gives the Bills that option. Hit a couple of those and they'll quickly abandon cover 0.

if only Josh hit just one of those.

as soon as you miss it? Def loads the box, and game gets ugly

just ask Josh

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, MDH said:

 

I also think Duke brings near zero value. So yeah, Foster isn't super productive but between his ST value (where Duke has zero) and his deep threat value, it's more than Duke's value Imo. Duke has a good catch radius and is pretty good with contested balls but is a threat nowhere past 10 yards down the field and struggles to gain any separation. To me, fans like him because when they see him he makes plays, but they aren't watching him on all the balls that aren't going his way, which is 97% of the plays. He adds near zero value on any of those plays. And despite what fans think, those plays matter too.

 

EDIT: I'll also add that this week, when the Bills are likely to see a ton of cover 0, Foster is a must field. Despite Josh's struggles, the best way to stop cover 0 is throwing it deep outside. Foster gives the Bills that option. Hit a couple of those and they'll quickly abandon cover 0.

Duke is a way better blocker than Foster.  That’s has more value on plays he’s not being targeted than having Foster run the same decoy route McKenzie can run too.  
 

And Duke was targeted more frequently than Foster and has double the production in just 3 games.  
 

And sorry...the separation thing is so over exaggerated.  He got separation plenty of times, including on a game winning TD.  He wouldn’t be on the 53 if he couldn’t get separation.  Don’t know why people keep making this false claim.  You don’t need 4.45 speed to get separation.  
 

In fact, 40 time speed has almost nothing to do with separation.  But people here just say he can’t because they quote his 40 time.  And most importantly, the value of a guy like Duke is that he can be open and a target in tight coverage or highly contested situations, especially in the Redzone and near the goal line where many throws are high point throws, fades, and back shoulders too.  

Foster brings no value there, you know the area of the field you score points.  Duke can be a target there and also block for runs, screens or QB runs too.  

[MDH]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And sorry...the separation thing is so over exaggerated.  He got separation plenty of times, including on a game winning TD.  He wouldn’t be on the 53 if he couldn’t get separation.  Don’t know why people keep making this false claim.  You don’t need 4.45 speed to get separation.  
 

 

 

No, you need route running. You need to understand leverage. You need more than just speed, though that helps.

 

If he could get separation on a regular basis he'd be on the active roster every single week. Every week. You must think McDermott is an idiot if he has a big, sure handed WR who gets regular separation yet he keeps him on the bench.

 

Imo you dramatically overvalue how good Duke is. There's nothing I can say to you that will convince you.

 

I will say this, with more experience Duke can become a productive WR. Get better at routes and body control and I could see him being productive in the future. Obviously the coaching staff doesn't think he's there yet.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

meh. You also thought our WRs would be good last year. Sooooo

I was wrong about zay and foster

 

happy?

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I was wrong about zay and foster

 

happy?

don’t forget about Benjamin! 

[transplantbillsfan]

At this point I don't think Duke will be active the rest of this season or in the playoffs.

 

Basically, I don't think we see Duke play another meaningful game with Buffalo.

 

Daboll clearly thinks he doesn't fit in his offense. Right or wrong, I'm sure that's what he thinks.

 

I don't personally agree. I think a hungry big bodied WR with reliable hands who is a good run blocker is a young QB's best friend in ANY offense, but Daboll is our OC, not me.

 

I think we've seen Duke take his last snap with the Bills barring injury or an EXTREMELY outside shot that Duke Williams is the proverbial rabbit Daboll is waiting to pull out of his hat for the right game, which would only really either be tomorrow or the 1st playoff game... but I just kinda doubt it.

Edited December 21, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, MDH said:

 

No, you need route running. You need to understand leverage. You need more than just speed, though that helps.

 

If he could get separation on a regular basis he'd be on the active roster every single week. Every week. You must think McDermott is an idiot if he has a big, sure handed WR who gets regular separation yet he keeps him on the bench.

 

Imo you dramatically overvalue how good Duke is. There's nothing I can say to you that will convince you.

 

I will say this, with more experience Duke can become a productive WR. Get better at routes and body control and I could see him being productive in the future. Obviously the coaching staff doesn't think he's there yet.

This is where you are wrong, in fairness with me at least.  I am not over valuing Duke.  I am assigning him some value where guys like Foster are providing no value.  
 

If Duke averages 2 rec a game and gets 1 TD every 3 games, then that’s substantially more value than Foster, Smith or Roberts have provided.  I like Roberts, so not trying to pick on him because at least he has some value as a KR although it’s been a bit disappointing this year, but i think that’s more on our blocking more than him.

 

And Duke IS averaging 2 rec a game and one TD every 3 games like I said above.
 

You see I am not over valuing him, I am saying he’s done more in less opportunities.  He has provided more value already.  I will take that over no value any day of the week.

 

But if anyone speaks up for Duke, you guys over exaggerate it as if we claim he’s our savior.  All we are saying is it would be nice to have a WR for those tight spaces and tough yards a few times a game.  Our top 3 guys average 5’10” and 180ish pounds.  We got a monster for a QB, give him one big WR for those spots where one is useful.

 

I was very high on Foster after last year, but the reality is the staff has lost faith in him or he’s severely regressed (or both)...so if he’s not gonna do anything, activate the guy who is hungry and physical out there who can also help our run game with his blocking.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Livinginthepast]

8 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

But you didn't state and option you stated" I don't understand the logic of keeping Duke inactive when he could be improving this receiving corps right now."   That sounds like you are stating a fact to me.  And yes you are correct  too that you don't know what the coaches think, but expecting them to make some type of statement to the fan base is insane.  When someone has only caught a total of 6 passes, to state he has caught 90% is not very statistically valid if you actually understand statistics.

Ok lets just go through this. You quoted me and bolded my "opinion" statement, then pretentiously said:

 

"so  your comments are really based on nothing more than an opinion based on little facts compared to the knowledge the Bills coaches have of the situation" 

 

Now you respond with the above and say " But you didn't state and option you stated". ??

 

I assume you meant to type OPINION not option. So my original statement you called an OPINION  isn't an opinion now?   I was asserting a fact?  huh? Make up your mind and WTF Dude, who cares either way? I have an opinion and you can have an opinion, that's the beauty of this forum. But you couldn't leave it at that. You follow up with  two pieces of brilliance:

 

"but expecting them to make some type of statement to the fan base is insane." So expecting the coaches or the GM of a pro sports franchise to comment on player personnel decisions is "insane". These guys literally do this multiple times on a daily basis. They constantly update the status of players, injuries, firings, cuts and signings. So yes it might be nice to explain why a productive player isn't being used in a inconsistent offense.

 

then you conclude with this MENSA special: 

 

"When someone has only caught a total of 6 passes, to state he has caught 90% is not very statistically valid if you actually understand statistics." 

 

Its not statistically valid? Huh? According to Pro Football Reference.com, Duke has been TARGETTED (ie thrown to) 7 times in 3 games. He CAUGHT 6 of the 7 passes thrown his way. One of them was TD.   That works out to 86% of his passes caught (I was a whopping 4% off) . Please explain how this "not very statistically valid"? Is your math different from the rest of us? Its not like he was thrown to once!  He's only been given a shot in 3 games  (one of which he got hurt in). But apparently I just don't "understand"  how stats work?

 

Perhaps if Duke played more and started the season on the active roster we would have a true judgement on him and he would have more targets but he hasn't been given the chance and no reason has been clearly explained as to why.  I just don't understand the illogical hatred of some in TBD of player who won us a game this year and has been strangely not allowed to contribute when he has shown he can perform. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Livinginthepast

[JoPoy88]

18 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Ok lets just go through this. You quoted me and bolded my "opinion" statement, then pretentiously said:

 

"so  your comments are really based on nothing more than an opinion based on little facts compared to the knowledge the Bills coaches have of the situation" 

 

Now you respond with the above and say " But you didn't state and option you stated". ??

 

I assume you meant to type OPINION not option. So my original statement you called an OPINION  isn't an opinion now?   I was asserting a fact?  huh? Make up your mind and WTF Dude, who cares either way? I have an opinion and you can have an opinion, that's the beauty of this forum. But you couldn't leave it at that. You follow up with  two pieces of brilliance:

 

"but expecting them to make some type of statement to the fan base is insane." So expecting the coaches or the GM of a pro sports franchise to comment on player personnel decisions is "insane". These guys literally do this multiple times on a daily basis. They constantly update the status of players, injuries, firings, cuts and signings. So yes it might be nice to explain why a productive player isn't being used in a inconsistent offense.

 

then you conclude with this MENSA special: 

 

"When someone has only caught a total of 6 passes, to state he has caught 90% is not very statistically valid if you actually understand statistics." 

 

Its not statistically valid? Huh? According to Pro Football Reference.com, Duke has been TARGETTED (ie thrown to) 7 times in 3 games. He CAUGHT 6 of the 7 passes thrown his way. One of them was TD.   That works out to 86% of his passes caught (I was a whopping 4% off) . Please explain how this "not very statistically valid"? Is your math different from the rest of us? Its not like he was thrown to once!  He's only been given a shot in 3 games  (one of which he got hurt in). But apparently I just don't "understand"  how stats work?

 

Perhaps if Duke played more and started the season on the active roster we would have a true judgement on him and he would have more targets but he hasn't been given the chance and no reason has been clearly explained as to why.  I just don't understand the illogical hatred of some in TBD of player who won us a game this year and has been strangely not allowed to contribute when he has shown he can perform. 

 

 

 

 

the sample size is too small, that’s why people are saying it’s not statistically valid. Numbers are hard dude

[Livinginthepast]

4 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

the sample size is too small, that’s why people are saying it’s not statistically valid. Numbers are hard dude

So apparently is reading my post and seeing where I addressed that.  The stats only tell us what he has done in his targets. Nobody is saying he's going to catch 90% of targets over the course of the season. But we don't know what he might have accomplished and probably wont ever know now. That's a shame.  but hey keep that hate on!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

31 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Ok lets just go through this. You quoted me and bolded my "opinion" statement, then pretentiously said:

 

"so  your comments are really based on nothing more than an opinion based on little facts compared to the knowledge the Bills coaches have of the situation" 

 

Now you respond with the above and say " But you didn't state and option you stated". ??

 

I assume you meant to type OPINION not option. So my original statement you called an OPINION  isn't an opinion now?   I was asserting a fact?  huh? Make up your mind and WTF Dude, who cares either way? I have an opinion and you can have an opinion, that's the beauty of this forum. But you couldn't leave it at that. You follow up with  two pieces of brilliance:

 

"but expecting them to make some type of statement to the fan base is insane." So expecting the coaches or the GM of a pro sports franchise to comment on player personnel decisions is "insane". These guys literally do this multiple times on a daily basis. They constantly update the status of players, injuries, firings, cuts and signings. So yes it might be nice to explain why a productive player isn't being used in a inconsistent offense.

 

then you conclude with this MENSA special: 

 

"When someone has only caught a total of 6 passes, to state he has caught 90% is not very statistically valid if you actually understand statistics." 

 

Its not statistically valid? Huh? According to Pro Football Reference.com, Duke has been TARGETTED (ie thrown to) 7 times in 3 games. He CAUGHT 6 of the 7 passes thrown his way. One of them was TD.   That works out to 86% of his passes caught (I was a whopping 4% off) . Please explain how this "not very statistically valid"? Is your math different from the rest of us? Its not like he was thrown to once!  He's only been given a shot in 3 games  (one of which he got hurt in). But apparently I just don't "understand"  how stats work?

 

Perhaps if Duke played more and started the season on the active roster we would have a true judgement on him and he would have more targets but he hasn't been given the chance and no reason has been clearly explained as to why.  I just don't understand the illogical hatred of some in TBD of player who won us a game this year and has been strangely not allowed to contribute when he has shown he can perform. 

 

 

 

 

 

So are you saying if he was targeted 70 times he'd catch 60?  That's why it's not statistically valid, typically the minimum sample size to have any validly is 4, so at 6 it's just over the minimum, not a high degree of confidence its repeatable.    By your standards the best receiver on the team may be Lee Smith as from what I recall he was targeted once and caught it and it even went for a TD.

 

I think there's been a pretty clear reason given why he's not given chances, in the coaches view, the ones who see him every day realize he's not as good as the other WR on the team.   That seems pretty easy to figure out, but you seem to need a better explanation.

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

don’t forget about Benjamin! 

There were a lot of ppl wrong about Benjamin......I still feel that TYPE of WR is exactly what we need

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

The real question is, if they were never going to use him, why did they promote him? Send him back to the practice squad. Or they should have left him there. I think the main point people are making is, why? Why did they bring him up, activate him, have him not harm the team, and then never play him again. He has one of TWO touchdowns caught by a receiver whose last name does not start with B this season.  

 

They promoted him and gave him an opportunity by playing him for 3 games.  Evidently in those 3 games, he didn't show them enough that they wanted to see, so he hasn't been active since.

 

Why should they leave Duke on the practice squad and make him a Saturday 4 pm decision, when they can allow him to earn more money on the roster and if they want/need they can activate him up to an hour before game time?

 

What would putting him back on the practice squad achieve except to displace someone else and to deprive him of NFL bennies/money?

 

Article about Duke: https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/news/williams-embracing-his-role-but-confident-and-ready-to-help " I'm just going to continue to do that this offseason, I'm just going to work my ass off, so when I do come back next season, I'll be put in a position to really show what I can do. "

[StHustle]

38 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

Cause he is not good enough.

 

But how do you come to that conclusion? Because he isnt active or becasue you watched his tape? How do you explain this:

 

Season totals for the following players:
Foster:  3 rec, 0 TD
Roberts: 3 rec, 0 TD 
Lee Smith:  4 rec, 0 TD

 

Nobody can make any intelligent argument that any 3 of these guys has made game changing plays. Roberts simply hasnt done enough on returns to justify his spot. His couple big returns is quite average for a season and he way too often doesnt even make it to the 25 when coming out of the endzone. 

 

Meanwhile...

Duke:  (In his only 3 games played)  6 rec on 7 targets and a GAME WIINNING TD.

[JoPoy88]

6 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

So apparently is reading my post and seeing where I addressed that.  The stats only tell us what he has done in his targets. Nobody is saying he's going to catch 90% of targets over the course of the season. But we don't know what he might have accomplished and probably wont ever know now. That's a shame.  but hey keep that hate on!

You didn’t address it, you dismissed it. There’s a difference. And there’s no hate on my end - I trust the team AND the team’s coaches. Including the coaches’ decisions on active rosters, etc. so who’s hating? The “shame” belongs entirely to you. ?