Alphadawg7 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You may find it silly but that is the way it has been. You don't like the convention but that is a separate debate. The debate here is while it is a convention is it safe for one team to unilaterally ignore it. And the answer is no, it's not. That’s just it, that’s not the situation. This was end of half, game was not “over”. That’s the point. Any of the 22 players on the field half a**ing on a live play like that are choosing to put them selves at risk. So the OL needs to lineup prepared for an all out blitz, even if it doesn’t come. Just like the defense needs to be ready for a fake. Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Getting a kick out of Alphadawg's trolling....truly is funny. EV-REE-BODY, except for the Dawg, is rightfully pointing out how it was bush league, pathetic, and dangerous (dangerous to the Bills in this case, because the D-line certainly wasn't expecting Balt to come at them). And like many others have stated, it leaves Balt liable to get blown up on ALL "Victory" formations (and that's exactly what it was) going forward. I sure hope that other teams do indeed go "full blast" on them, to include a LB bull-rushing the center and smashing Lamar before he has the chance to kneel down. In Dawg's demented logic, it would be perfectly fine! ETA: The Bills should have done the above on the last play of the game. If McDummy was a good coach, then he would have ordered it. It certainly would have been justified, given the Ravens previous actions. Edited December 10, 2019 by John in Jax Words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Bush league and a dumb idea for multiple reasons. First, it violates the spirit of the kneel down play, which is simply to signify to the opposing defense that you do not intend to run a play. It's bush because it takes advantage of the defenders' willingness to hold up and not rush. So it's bush for that reason. But worse off, it puts your team in a situation where in the future no defender should every honor the spirit of the kneel down and instead should just bull rush the OL and QB. Let them deal with it. But what makes this the dumbest play ever, and everyone gives Harbaugh credit, is that the play went to a backup RB with 40 carries at a 3.6 ypc average, not Jackson or Ingram. Stupid all around and it would be as stupid if McD did it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: It’s the same thing. The DL isn’t expected to come hard if the QB is signaling to set up for a spike. Again, it’s the defenses job to be ready...period. Everything else is just an excuse. End of game is different, but this was a love play. Be ready or get burned, end of story. Except it’s not, so there’s that too. May not be common, but it’s happened a few times the last couple of years. Then again, it’s pointless to discuss anyway, because this was NOT at the end of a game. Every single one of you whining 100% would have loved this play if McD did it and scored off it. But yet it didn’t work for them, it just looked desperate. And if McD did this I would not have loved it, I would have said it was stupid. So you are wrong. But I’m not “whining” about anything so maybe I’m not included in your 100%? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksm27 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 So is somebody going to provide the guidelines around when it’s okay and isn’t okay to fake a kneel down? I.e., with less than a certain amount of time left on the clock, or with the score discrepancy being over a certain number of points, or being over a certain number of yards from scoring range? No, wait, let’s just create an equation to decide when it’s okay or not okay - then we can just leave it all to algorithms and analytics!!! OR.....and this may be a lil crazy, but hear me out..... Maybe we do none of that and just let professionals play the game fully within the bounds of the rules as was the case on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I promise you that I wouldn't. I love John Harbaugh. I'd hire him tomorrow and have long since argued he is 2nd only to Belichick in the league. But I think it was a bad move. Agreed on all points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 I don't have an issue with it. It is trying to break a big play before the half by catching a defense lapsing mentally. Now tactically was it a good move? I don't think so. I think it is more likely that you fumble or something else bad happens than you breaking a big play there. But is it bush league or somehow going against an unwritten rule? No, it is just a let's try and keep them honest play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Anyone got a clip of the play? Not finding anything posted yet... 4 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Absolutely 100% victory formation Thanks for posting Yeah, thats a dick move. Alpha has been so adamant that they "were still competing" I was starting to think I remembered the play wrong. But that is totally 100% the common victory formation which signals they are going to just run the clock so dont go 100% in order to avoid injury. Makes me almost wish they had the ball to end the game so our DL could blow Jackson up on the actual kneel down and be totally justified. Edited December 10, 2019 by DrDawkinstein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Process Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) At first I didn't have an issue with it, but after some thought it was bush league. Is it bush league and classless for a defense to pop the o-line and tackle the QB on a normal kneel down? Then it's bush league to run a fake. There's an unwritten agreement that when an offense gets in victory formation, defense let's up and doesn't attack. It's not like running a fake QB sneak.. completely different situation. Edited December 10, 2019 by Process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 28 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Makes me almost wish they had the ball to end the game so our DL could blow Jackson up on the actual kneel down and be totally justified. They did do a kneel down at the end of the game. As I said in a post a few above yours, McDummy should have turned the D-line loose on that play. Post Game Presser could have gone like this, regarding the matter: Media (to Coach McD): What was that at the end of the game? Wasn't that a dirty play by your defense? McD: Did you see the end of the first half? Media: Yes. McD: So when they line up in that formation, is there any guarantee that they are just going to kneel down? Media: Uhhh.... McD: NEXT QUESTION! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Yea Schiano is the only one I remember. And he got roundly criticised. And rightly so. You wanna run a play? Fine, run a play. But don't line up to kneel and run one. I think it risks player safety. I promise you that I wouldn't. I love John Harbaugh. I'd hire him tomorrow and have long since argued he is 2nd only to Belichick in the league. But I think it was a bad move. Schiano did it at least a couple of times. And we should have done it at the end of the game. Not only was the ravens playing bush league, it almost demands that nobody honor a victory formation “gentleman’s agreement” with them at the end of a half or at the end of a tie in regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, John in Jax said: They did do a kneel down at the end of the game. As I said in a post a few above yours, McDummy should have turned the D-line loose on that play. Post Game Presser could have gone like this, regarding the matter: Media (to Coach McD): What was that at the end of the game? Wasn't that a dirty play by your defense? McD: Did you see the end of the first half? Media: Yes. McD: So when they line up in that formation, is there any guarantee that they are just going to kneel down? Media: Uhhh.... McD: NEXT QUESTION! ah, interesting. I checked out after the dropped 4th down pass. Yeah, they should have blown them up. But then again, McD isnt a classless, bush league, d-bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: BUT this was not the same thing...not end of a game. And these guys play a violent game, they are an injury risk every play. So I find this injury excuse a bit silly. Its a wide open game with time in the clock. Be ready as a defense...period. Anything else is being undisciplined and you deserve to be fooled. I agree with you a lot, but I’m with gunner on this one. It’s fine to run a play. It’s unethical to run a play out of a victory formation. Just like it would be unethical to cheap shot an opposing qb kneeling in victory formation to close out a half. It was bad sportsmanship and should have been answered by pushing the center into Jackson’s lap on the kneel to end the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: I agree with you a lot, but I’m with gunner on this one. It’s fine to run a play. It’s unethical to run a play out of a victory formation. Just like it would be unethical to cheap shot an opposing qb kneeling in victory formation to close out a half. It was bad sportsmanship and should have been answered by pushing the center into Jackson’s lap on the kneel to end the game. I have no issue punishing the center later. I just don’t think there is anything wrong trying to a fool a team at the end of the half. And it’s all good, we don’t all have to always agree But I feel like people turn this game into a kiddie game too much and worry about players feelings too much. Edited December 10, 2019 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinceThe70s Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Process said: At first I didn't have an issue with it, but after some thought it was bush league. Is it bush league and classless for a defense to pop the online and tackle the QB on a normal kneel down? Then it's bush league to run a fake. There's an unwritten agreement that when an offense gets in victory formation, defense let's up and doesn't attack. It's not like running a fake QB sneak.. completely different situation. Like you, initially I had no issue with the play call, I thought it was kind of clever especially the Lamar misdirection. But you summed it up perfectly. And yeah, it was bush league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london_bills Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Process said: At first I didn't have an issue with it, but after some thought it was bush league. Is it bush league and classless for a defense to pop the online and tackle the QB on a normal kneel down? Then it's bush league to run a fake. There's an unwritten agreement that when an offense gets in victory formation, defense let's up and doesn't attack. It's not like running a fake QB sneak.. completely different situation. Yeah I know what you mean after thinking about this. My hunch would be this is partly why mcdermott had to be restrained in the tunnel. Probably pissed him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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