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YoloinOhio

Joe B. All-22 vs Cowboys: Ford may have sealed his fate as a Guard in 2020

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3 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

I think he'd thrive at G for the most part, but I think he'd still struggle a bit picking up blitzes that aren't coming straight at him. 

 

Stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and just find a high quality replacement at RT. 

I think that is entirely possible especially with the Beane "We will start him out at RT" comment he made before the draft

 

The question is....what RT possibilities WILL be available.....def not against drafting one.....what will be available in free at RT in free agency.   I dont want to sign someone just to sign someone remember we also have Waddle coming back.

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12 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I know mentioning PFF around here is guaranteed to get eye rolls, but FWIW (and they review/grade every play from scrimmage, something most of us don't have time or skill to do) here's they're scores for our O line so far this year. I don't pay PFF for premium, but I think the 60ish range is considered the floor for an above "replacement level" player. 70 and above is usually a starter grade. 85 and above are pro bowlers.

 

Ford 54.2

Spain 59.5

Morse 60.9

Feliciano 61.4

Nsekhe 67.3

Dawkins 71.5

 

Quick points from my non-expert perspective:

-I think the ranking is about right (e.g., Dawkins clearly the best, Ford clearly the worst), although I don't have any basis to say something like "Nsekhe is 13 points better than Ford." Better? Indeed.

-I also think you have a veteran group (minus Ford) that works together better than perhaps the individual performances would suggest. A kind of "whole is greater than the sum of the parts" thing. And the line was so awful last year - particularly at the start of the year - that simple competence is pretty remarkable for Bills fans. It was a huge turnaround, and combined with a couple veteran/above average receivers and Allen's growth, the offense has gone from awful to solid (with better to come?) in record time.

 

EDIT: I'll note that Knox/Smith/Kroft are huge upgrades over what we got on the blocking side of the equation from Clay/O'Leary/Croom last year, so that helps too. Yes, even Lee Smith (in the average range for TEs overall, and we know he contributes zero in the receiving category)

 

By the way, thanks to many of the insightful commenters here. I enjoy reading a thread and feeling like I've actually learned something. (Or maybe I'm just in the mood to spread holiday cheer)

 

 

One caveat I might add to this is that we don't know how they are graded for running versus passing. I believe that Ford has been touted as a better run blocker than pass blocker, while I would expect that it's the opposite for all or most of the rest of our lineman.

 

Also, our highest paid lineman Morse :(

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On 12/5/2019 at 7:49 AM, SoTier said:

 

Beane lucked out in that there was talent available.  You can't sign decent/good FAs if they aren't available, and with OLers, even guys who are decent/good but not great never make it to FA.  It's the same in the draft.  Just because the Bills really need a WR1 and this looks like a good year for WRs doesn't mean that the WRs available when they pick are what they want -- or that there's not a better player at another position available that ought to be a no-brainer to take.

 

Your assessment would be more accurate if most of Beane's successful signings were in super strong free agent classes flushed with talent. But Beane hit on many middling and under-appreciated free agents. This O-line market was not flushed with players. Feliciano, Spain, and Ty were mid-market or lower market free agents who are available in any free agent market. 

 

The WR market was rather average. Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, and Randle Cobb were some of the best talents on the market outside of Brown and Beasley. John Brown was an often injured WR whose most productive season was barely above 1000 yards several years ago. Cole Beasley was a mid-level solid slot WR. Neither Brown nor Beasley were exactly slam dunk signings. Beane's only duh signing was Andre Roberts who was so cheap for a pro-bowl special teams player at a position of need (although how many times have the Bills not made those types of signings.) 

 

The overall free agent market this past off-season while not bad was nothing special (No NFL free agency class is really special thanks to the Franchise tag and the fact that players will often get taken care of before they hit free agency.) Some of Beane's biggest hits in this market were on Feliciano and Spain players who were signed to lower end deals. 

 

Beane also made these massive improvements without tying up their cap long term. Only Mitch is hard to get out of past 2020. So the team is going to be in a position to supplement an already good roster over the rest of the course of Josh's rookie deal the next 3 seasons as even when Tre, Dawkins, Milano, Poyer and others come up for extensions some other significant contracts like Star will be able to be dropped.

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23 minutes ago, Reader said:

 

One caveat I might add to this is that we don't know how they are graded for running versus passing. I believe that Ford has been touted as a better run blocker than pass blocker, while I would expect that it's the opposite for all or most of the rest of our lineman.

 

Also, our highest paid lineman Morse :(

Good points. I agree re: run vs. pass blocking. I think every veteran O lineman we picked up in the offseason graded higher last year in pass blocking vs. run blocking. Obviously protecting Allen and giving him time to learn/progress was the priority. Thankfully we also got Singletary, who appears fully capable of making yardage even when the holes aren't there.

On Morse: PFF may also undervalue him as he may be the key part to the "whole is more than the sum of the parts" thing, as the leader/caller on the O line.

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28 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that is entirely possible especially with the Beane "We will start him out at RT" comment he made before the draft

 

The question is....what RT possibilities WILL be available.....def not against drafting one.....what will be available in free at RT in free agency.   I dont want to sign someone just to sign someone remember we also have Waddle coming back.

 

Jack Conklin is going to be a FA... I don't know how he's played lately, (based on how bad the TEN line is, probably not good) but his rookie year he made all-pro, if I'm not mistaken. 

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26 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that is entirely possible especially with the Beane "We will start him out at RT" comment he made before the draft

 

The question is....what RT possibilities WILL be available.....def not against drafting one.....what will be available in free at RT in free agency.   I dont want to sign someone just to sign someone remember we also have Waddle coming back.

 

Waddle is a free agent next year.

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30 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Your assessment would be more accurate if most of Beane's successful signings were in super strong free agent classes flushed with talent. But Beane hit on many middling and under-appreciated free agents. This O-line market was not flushed with players. Feliciano, Spain, and Ty were mid-market or lower market free agents who are available in any free agent market. 

 

The WR market was rather average. Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, and Randle Cobb were some of the best talents on the market outside of Brown and Beasley. John Brown was an often injured WR whose most productive season was barely above 1000 yards several years ago. Cole Beasley was a mid-level solid slot WR. Neither Brown nor Beasley were exactly slam dunk signings. Beane's only duh signing was Andre Roberts who was so cheap for a pro-bowl special teams player at a position of need (although how many times have the Bills not made those types of signings.) 

 

The overall free agent market this past off-season while not bad was nothing special (No NFL free agency class is really special thanks to the Franchise tag and the fact that players will often get taken care of before they hit free agency.) Some of Beane's biggest hits in this market were on Feliciano and Spain players who were signed to lower end deals. 

 

Beane also made these massive improvements without tying up their cap long term. Only Mitch is hard to get out of past 2020. So the team is going to be in a position to supplement an already good roster over the rest of the course of Josh's rookie deal the next 3 seasons as even when Tre, Dawkins, Milano, Poyer and others come up for extensions some other significant contracts like Star will be able to be dropped.

Agreed. This was a fantastic offseason for Beane. As is often the case, its clear (Kroft) or uncertain (Morse) whether the big dollar signings were worth it. But the mid-level (Brown, Beasley, re-signing Jordan Phillips, Nsekhe) and cheapo (Gore, the other O linemen, even Lee Smith) have all been hits. The only one I might argue about (here I agree with you too): Andre Roberts. He's been exactly what they thought he'd be, but he's definitely on the high end for a return-only guy. Not a bust, just pricey.

Edited by The Frankish Reich

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35 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Jack Conklin is going to be a FA... I don't know how he's played lately, (based on how bad the TEN line is, probably not good) but his rookie year he made all-pro, if I'm not mistaken. 

 

Looks like he might be available.  Titans didn't pick up his 5th year option.  He's had some knee issues.

I'm wondering how much the Bills will be looking for a swing tackle if Ty doesn't make the team next year.

There is no real backup at LT other than him.

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