Duke Williams vs Denver

[WideNine]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I would have led with that rather than the references to fighting for contested balls, high pointing things and scoring TDs....

 

Fair enough, just was listing some of the things I saw he was doing with those limited reps.

 

Not sure if he can do that consistently.

 

 

[kota]

Isiah Mckensie should not be actived.  He is used for like 1-2 trick plays a game.  Seems pointless.  Duke should be the starting WR opposite John.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

No to Duke. No to Foster. Somebody get me Da'Rick Rodgers!

Somebody get you to da hospital!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

15 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Then you didn’t watch the plays he got...

You’re right, these coaches never make a judgment mistake. Just ask a Peterman ....

 

Sure coaches make mistakes, but even then they are basing it on actual information so it's what I'd call an informed mistake as opposed to fans  who base it off seeing practically nothing compared to the coaches and it's based about 90% on emotion.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

19 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

....I know the speed part, so leave that out....Foster vs Duke.....what are the pros and cons?....

 

My guess is the decision has more to do with special teams. 

 

I am puzzled on how he went from displacing Zay and a bunch of targets, to inactive. 

 

I do do feel like he’s the only guy in the WR room that can get you that contested catch in the red zone. 

[Logic]

No. I disagree that Williams should be active.

 

The best the Bills offense has looked all season was last week, when they stuck with 21 personnel (3WR, 1HB, 1TE). The three receivers were Brown, Beasley, and McKenzie. Speed and shiftiness are the common elements. Williams has neither.

As for special teams contributions: Williams hardly makes any. Foster is a starting gunner.

Williams stays on the bench this week.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

20 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

I think it all dates back to Don Beebe, who had a decent NFL career but was way overvalued by Bills fans. He had 164 receptions for the Bills in 6 years, never had more than 40 and capped out ta 554 yards. 

“Way overvalued by Bills fans”?!?!  
*
You, sir (or madam), have just besmirched the name of a Buffalo Bill who will remain venerated by any fan from the 1990s.  Mention the name Don Beebe with the same reverence you would mention Randolph Scott.

? Rand-dol-oph Scott?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

No to Duke. No to Foster. Somebody get me Da'Rick Rodgers!

Haha. That is what I was going to say. The legend of Da'Rick Rogers lives. 

 

 

[WideNine]

12 minutes ago, Logic said:

No. I disagree that Williams should be active.

 

The best the Bills offense has looked all season was last week, when they stuck with 21 personnel (3WR, 1HB, 1TE). The three receivers were Brown, Beasley, and McKenzie. Speed and shiftiness are the common elements. Williams has neither.

As for special teams contributions: Williams hardly makes any. Foster is a starting gunner.

Williams stays on the bench this week.

 

I did like that 3x1 package, and that is why I said I hope it is just a numbers game based on the packages.

 

If opposing teams are using nickle db's to cover Beasley it would be interesting to sub a more physical Duke in the slot now and then to spell him and create some different mismatches.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

....I know the speed part, so leave that out....Foster vs Duke.....what are the pros and cons?....

 

1) if the Bills stick with the no-huddle and relatively unchanged personnel, neither would be likely to see many offensive snaps

2) if we vary from 11, it's likely to be to bring in Dimarco or to put both Kroft and Knox on the field.  at least, I hope we're giving up on that 01 or 02 set *shudder*

3) both play teams.  Duke is a role player on teams.  Foster is making his case as the Gunner, which he has the speed to do and Duke does not.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, Logic said:

No. I disagree that Williams should be active.

 

The best the Bills offense has looked all season was last week, when they stuck with 21 personnel (3WR, 1HB, 1TE). The three receivers were Brown, Beasley, and McKenzie. Speed and shiftiness are the common elements. Williams has neither.

As for special teams contributions: Williams hardly makes any. Foster is a starting gunner.

Williams stays on the bench this week.

 

Minor correction.  1 HB, 1 TE is a 11 set.

 

One reason they're pushing McKensie to more role as a WR is that his presence on the field had become a Jet Sweep "tell" because he wasn't there for anything else.  They have to put film down of him running routes (and being targeted) to lose that.

 

McKensie still looks very very awkward to me as a receiver, even in the backfield.  I swear, I saw him he catch a pass in the backfield vs Miami and spin around 270 degrees when 90 in the other direction would have done it.  Now that may have been momentum because maybe Josh put the pass in the wrong place and he had to adjust to it, none of us can tell- but it looked extremely awkward.  He's only charged as having 1 drop for his 50% reception rate but I'm not sure he's running the right routes or making the right adjustments.

 

Williams is way, way more polished as a receiver, but it's not clear to me that he knows the plays and adjustments any better, and he doesn't offer that jet sweep thing.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

My guess is the decision has more to do with special teams. 

I am puzzled on how he went from displacing Zay and a bunch of targets, to inactive.

 

1) Kroft became active

2) It became clear they had to expand McKensie's role or lose the jet sweep option

[Meatloaf63]

57 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Sure coaches make mistakes, but even then they are basing it on actual information so it's what I'd call an informed mistake as opposed to fans  who base it off seeing practically nothing compared to the coaches and it's based about 90% on emotion.

Yeah, I think a lot of us want him to succeed as it would be very helpful for Allen and the offense....

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

21 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

They have to be able to beat man coverage.  I don't care who they put in as long as they beat man coverage

Agree 100%. In a very small sample size, it does seem like Duke has shown the ability to beat man coverage (the GW TD pass he caught against Adoree Jackson in the Titans game and the 20+ yd pass he caught over the middle in the first Miami game come to mind).

 

Beasley deserves more targets in this respect as well. Will put Devontae Harris and Duke Dawson on skates all day. 

[starrymessenger]

Can't say I know how he would make out but I think I'd rather check him out than Foster or Smith who for different reasons pretty much stand out as a couple of non-performing deadbeats who I am tired of having to look at. I get the impression that maybe these guys get the nod because members of the coaching staff have an investment in these underperforming assets. Sometimes that happens. All aboard the A Train, choo choo. Remember that? And who was the guy from the bush leagues who had to sit? The fans clearly knew better than the staff in that case.

I don't really have a dog in this fight however and for sure the coaches are more knowledgeable and closer to the action and should be making the right decisions.

Edited November 21, 2019 by starrymessenger

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

The only analysis I provided is that he has done a lot with the 7 targets he was given, while there are other receivers who have been given more opportunities and have been meh.

 

I think it is a fair statement to say we don't know what we have with this kid because of the limited reps.

 

Not going to say he is a world-beater, I don't get too high or too low on our PS guys, but no one really knows what he can bring to this offense with the limited chances he has been given.

 

Nice Lee Smith comment, I think we may have done a tackle eligible play once last year too.

 

 

 

 

Limited reps and limited targets are 2 different things. In the 3 games Duke was in, he got 120 snaps. I wouldn't call 120 reps in 3 games limited. In those 3 games the only wrs with more snaps were Brown and Cole. Plus, coaches see what he can do at every practice. Sure, the targets were limited(7), but as I asked before, if he's not getting open, why throw a contested ball when someone else is open? Not sure the best plan of attack is to try a contested pass when someone else is getting open. He got plenty of chances(reps). He just didn't do enough to get more targets. We're in the middle of a potential playoff run. Now is not the time to "try" things out when the numbers show the offense is doing better without him out there. JMO.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Dopey

[thenorthremembers]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

Haha. That is what I was going to say. The legend of Da'Rick Rogers lives. 

 

 

He still plays not that far from here.   He is a Toronto Argo.

[JoPoy88]

5 hours ago, kota said:

Isiah Mckensie should not be actived.  He is used for like 1-2 trick plays a game.  Seems pointless.  Duke should be the starting WR opposite John.

that’s just objectively false

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Minor correction.  1 HB, 1 TE is a 11 set.

 

One reason they're pushing McKensie to more role as a WR is that his presence on the field had become a Jet Sweep "tell" because he wasn't there for anything else.  They have to put film down of him running routes (and being targeted) to lose that.

 

McKensie still looks very very awkward to me as a receiver, even in the backfield.  I swear, I saw him he catch a pass in the backfield vs Miami and spin around 270 degrees when 90 in the other direction would have done it.  Now that may have been momentum because maybe Josh put the pass in the wrong place and he had to adjust to it, none of us can tell- but it looked extremely awkward.  He's only charged as having 1 drop for his 50% reception rate but I'm not sure he's running the right routes or making the right adjustments.

 

Williams is way, way more polished as a receiver, but it's not clear to me that he knows the plays and adjustments any better, and he doesn't offer that jet sweep thing.

 

 

 

1) Kroft became active

2) It became clear they had to expand McKensie's role or lose the jet sweep option

good observations.
on the other side of that , I would like to see Duke used when they want to run more during the game. Outside, off tackle.

 I know they want Kroft to work out , we all do right ? But they paid him well : )
It is between Foster and Duke and game day packages .

and Because Foster plays gunner on Teams, he has an edge ?
 

For all the folks who call us Duke fans out? I just want Bills to win. Not smarter than Coaches, but i do want him to get more reps somehow.

 and better understand how he got in the "Dogs House" after his drop last game he played

4 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Can't say I know how he would make out but I think I'd rather check him out than Foster or Smith who for different reasons pretty much stand out as a couple of non-performing deadbeats who I am tired of having to look at. I get the impression that maybe these guys get the nod because members of the coaching staff have an investment in these underperforming assets. Sometimes that happens. All aboard the A Train, choo choo. Remember that? And who was the guy from the bush leagues who had to sit? The fans clearly knew better than the staff in that case.

I don't really have a dog in this fight however and for sure the coaches are more knowledgeable and closer to the action and should be making the right decisions.

I feel Kroft is the one they want to make good on that contract.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, kota said:

Isiah Mckensie should not be actived.  He is used for like 1-2 trick plays a game.  Seems pointless.  Duke should be the starting WR opposite John.

 

Ironically, because that's becoming increasingly untrue, Williams is less likely to be activated. 

 

McKensie had 3, 4 and 6 targets the last 3 games.  Those targets are not all Jet sweeps - because the Bills have realized that if they want the Jet sweeps to work, McKensie trotting onto the field could not be  a "tell".  How he's done has been a mixed bag.  He had a nice reception on a slant a couple games ago.  I know I saw a reception from him last Sunday that wasn't a reverse - a crosser? 

 

It's not like he's getting extensive targets, but frankly and until our offense finishes a few more drives, no one but Smoke is getting that many targets.  It's something like Brown gets 8-12 targets, Singletary Beasley and Knox get about half that number, and McKensie gets about 3-4.

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

good observations.
on the other side of that , I would like to see Duke used when they want to run more during the game. Outside, off tackle.

 I know they want Kroft to work out , we all do right ? But they paid him well : )
It is between Foster and Duke and game day packages .

and Because Foster plays gunner on Teams, he has an edge ?
 

For all the folks who call us Duke fans out? I just want Bills to win. Not smarter than Coaches, but i do want him to get more reps somehow.

 and better understand how he got in the "Dogs House" after his drop last game he played

I feel Kroft is the one they want to make good on that contract.

 

Makes sense. I would actually cut Kroft some slack and see how he makes out. In Fosters case however I suspect more his background with Daboll at Bama. I have no idea what's wrong with that guy.