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Forward Pass or Fumble? What’s the Standard?

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Official decision tree from NFL referee casebook manual:

 

if team = 'Bills' then 

   play = 'Fumble' 

else

   play = 'Incomplete Forward Pass'

 

 

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I found the video very depressing in the fact Allen couldn't accurately pass the ball to a player literally 6 inches in front of him.

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11 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. 

 

It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss.

 

 


 

No they don’t.  They are always passes if it tosses it like that.  The runs are the quick handoffs.

 

This play is a forward pass and that is the exact reason they do it.

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If this with Allen and McKenzie against NE, you know the call of a fumble on the field would have stood.

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15 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

Heres the kicker; that would have been a rushing play if completed. Counted as rush yards....why then is that a pass? Horsehockey ...there was no motion forward in the manner of a conventional pass. Should be a fumble!


The refs - and league - blew the call in the Vikings game.  There is no reason for that.  But I noticed that the shovel pass in the Washington game where Singletary went for 49 yards was counted as a completed pass and went toward passing yards.

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3 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I found the video very depressing in the fact Allen couldn't accurately pass the ball to a player literally 6 inches in front of him.

Kind of like the Browns, eh? Everything here depends on timing.  I wonder if that play was the first time Allen had run it in a game. The WR was on him too quickly, but carry on with accuracy issues.

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12 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. 

 

It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss.

 

 

 

Go back and look at the stats in those games, they are credited as passes.  I know because I looked closely as one of those affected my fantasy results.

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17 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Kind of like the Browns, eh? Everything here depends on timing.  I wonder if that play was the first time Allen had run it in a game. The WR was on him too quickly, but carry on with accuracy issues.

EZ bud, meant to be a funny. I like Josh a lot and hope more than anyone he succeeds. But let's not turn a blind eye to the obvious, at this juncture in his career he's not exactly pinpoint. 

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Thanks for posting this.  I was pulling my hair out arguing about this on another thread.  It's extremely frustrating that the refs don't understand the rules as well as people watching at home.   It's really simple, either the ball is moving forward or it is not.  Allen's example vs the Vikings should have been ruled an incomplete pass.  Baker's ball didn't go forward (at least not convincingly from replay) and should have stayed a fumble.

 

Ironically, it was probably during off-season review that the Refs were shown the incorrect outcome of Allen's example that this past weekends crew assumed was identical.  Bottom line, most of the refs are just not smart enough for this game.

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6 minutes ago, Jobot said:

Thanks for posting this.  I was pulling my hair out arguing about this on another thread.  It's extremely frustrating that the refs don't understand the rules as well as people watching at home.   It's really simple, either the ball is moving forward or it is not.  Allen's example vs the Vikings should have been ruled an incomplete pass.  Baker's ball didn't go forward (at least not convincingly from replay) and should have stayed a fumble.

 

Ironically, it was probably during off-season review that the Refs were shown the incorrect outcome of Allen's example that this past weekends crew assumed was identical.  Bottom line, most of the refs are just not smart enough for this game.

The problem is that there is no accountability for errors or explanation of the change. I truly accept it is an incomplete pass if it went forward an inch but then how did they mess up last year on review? The inconsistent nature is why I do not watch other games because I believe 2or 3 games a weekend are decided by poor officiating.

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36 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The problem is that there is no accountability for errors or explanation of the change. I truly accept it is an incomplete pass if it went forward an inch but then how did they mess up last year on review? The inconsistent nature is why I do not watch other games because I believe 2or 3 games a weekend are decided by poor officiating.

 

I have no clue why ALL replays don't go back to 'New York'.  It's so apparent that refs can't handle the added workload in addition to the field work.

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I've re-watched this play 50+ times... The bigger thing that concerns me is that he was attempting to underhand it to Hunt. If it's underhand shouldn't it be a fumble?

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I was talking with someone at work today.  Did anyone as a kid playing two hand touch ever use the rule "He cut the string"? 

 

If a guy ran between the QB and the center and the ball for any reason hit the ground, it's a live ball.  That would take all the debate out of this!

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5 hours ago, njbuff said:

If this with Allen and McKenzie against NE, you know the call of a fumble on the field would have stood.

 

Bills aren't advanced enough on O to design a play like that

 

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My question is, if Mayfield or the reciever picked it up and ran a few yards, would they still have treated it as a forward pass? If it got kicked back a bit and they lost 12 yards, would they call it an incomplete pass? Probably not because Baker Mayfield is the new posterchild for the NFL , the refs need to keep him engaged in the game, thus the call went that way. 

Edited by Guffalo

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9 hours ago, Jobot said:

 

I have no clue why ALL replays don't go back to 'New York'.  It's so apparent that refs can't handle the added workload in addition to the field work.

I thought all replays went through NYC- is it only scoring plays?

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On 11/11/2019 at 5:14 PM, row_33 said:

 

i was pressed for time at the office and listening on the radio and thought the Hughes TD clinched it and turned off the broadcast

 

found out THE TRUTH a little bit later...  :(

 

 

Ouch

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10 hours ago, Do The Reich Thing said:

I've re-watched this play 50+ times... The bigger thing that concerns me is that he was attempting to underhand it to Hunt. If it's underhand shouldn't it be a fumble?

I’m pretty sure it can be underhand, but it has to be forward. If it’s a lateral or a backwards pitch, then it’s a fumble. 

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Rather than relying on a consistent standard that might be confusing to some players and fans, the league and its officials have found success interpreting each unique play and set of circumstances individually, often with the assistance of video replay technology.

 

We believe this has resulted in an improved game day experience for players and fans alike.

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Gene Steratore said the standard is whether the arm is moving forward, not whether the ball is moving forward.

Can see from both of the passes that the rule as written was upheld.  It seems unintuitive but it also seems like the easiest way to get consistent play calling.

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The ruling on that play was that Josh never actually possessed the ball. Right or wrong they ruled he just tapped the snap to the guy in motion. 

 

On the jet sweep type play as long as the QB possesses the snap he can flip it any way he wants to the receiver running in front of him including underhand and it will be considered a forward pass.

 

They got the call right last week. We're on to Miami. 

 

Edited by Maybe Someday
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2 hours ago, Steve Billieve said:

Gene Steratore said the standard is whether the arm is moving forward, not whether the ball is moving forward.

Can see from both of the passes that the rule as written was upheld.  It seems unintuitive but it also seems like the easiest way to get consistent play calling.


so what if a QB were to turnaround and throw it backwards 50 yards. His arm was moving forwards so it’s not a fumble? That doesn’t make sense 

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17 hours ago, Jobot said:

 

I have no clue why ALL replays don't go back to 'New York'.  

 

I have no clue why ALL replays don't go to hell 

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16 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I thought all replays went through NYC- is it only scoring plays?

 

Damn idk then.. that would be very disappointing if NY is butchering these calls.

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19 hours ago, Guffalo said:

My question is, if Mayfield or the reciever picked it up and ran a few yards, would they still have treated it as a forward pass? If it got kicked back a bit and they lost 12 yards, would they call it an incomplete pass? Probably not because Baker Mayfield is the new posterchild for the NFL , the refs need to keep him engaged in the game, thus the call went that way. 

 

I think the answer to the 2nd is definitely - yes. On the first, more of a grey area. I would like to hope so but they might not have.

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