ROCKPILE REIVEW - The Bills Don't Have Quite Enough

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Shaw:
News Flash: Allen threw the ball badly! 

Maybe he did.  I was at the game, wasn't always seeing replays.   

 

It just didn't look that way to me.  I didn't see him missing open receivers a lot.  What I saw were a lot of throws into tight windows where receivers had defenders right on them.  As I said, my take on it was that he was in the wrong play and/or he was throwing to the wrong guy.   One of the coaches' complaints about him last season was that he'd take the difficult deeper throw over the easier shorter throw.   I don't know how many easy throws he passed up - I saw a few, and there probably were more.  

 

I continue to think that it's his decision making that needs work, not his throwing.  

[Stroke 17]

THE Bills are still the bills. When a winnable must win game is staring them in the face it still goes bad at every turn. When the touchdown by Hughes was called a pass was there any doubt that the end result,as normal, would be a drive to put me and the Bills out of our misery. Did you really think the clock management by the Bills would be good enough to tie or win the game. Did anybody really think that somebody on the team would step up and make a play or a kick to win or tie.  Not me, i have  sen it too many times. I am just sick and tired today and so worried about the rest of this year that had so much promise.

 

[Augie]

3 hours ago, mabden said:

Couple of things I kind of disagree with:

 

 Singletary only had 8 carries for 48 yds and a 5.0 ave.  Cleveland run defense is near the bottom of the league, which this brings home the point, the run game was working when used.  There is no way Cleveland has that much time at the end of the game if the play calling revolved around the run game.

 

During our last drive, Allen was on target and moving the Bills into position to win, yet for some reason, the coaches decided to pull up, allow time to run down with a huddle and go for a 50+ fg that Hauschka hasn't made in his last 5.

 

My BIL is a Browns season ticket holder and his opinion of the Browns is they always shoot themselves in the foot.  Most of the blame is towards the coaching.  During the game, I had to agree with them.  However, the Bills coaching (who I think is the best we have had since Marv)  was just a little bit worse with their game time decisions.

 

The bold was making me crazy, and my voice is a little hoarse today as a result. I did not check the stats, but that’s actually a 6.0 YPC average. Regardless, I’d have thought the game plan would be to pound it more, and pass it less given the opponent. 

 

EDIT: checked box score and Devin had 8 carries for 42 yards, so a 5.2 ypc average.  Worse, I’m seeing 41 passes vs 20 rushes, against the 30th ranked run defense. HOW CAN THAT BE? 

 

 

AND.....6 of those rushed were by Allen, so we threw 41 times and handed off only 14 times? Against the Browns. 

[Buddo]

Nice write up as usual Shaw.

 

For me, the major problem on offense, is that we do nothing well consistently. Some weeks we run ok, some weeks we pass ok, some weeks the kicker makes his FGs. Trouble is, we haven't done all 3 on a regular basis.

 

Then there's the play calling. Which goes between brilliant and abysmal as a regular event. There might be a huge playbook, but you don't have to try and use it all every game. Find the stuff that works, get that sorted out, and then add to it.

 

We seem to be regularly doing something wrong every set of downs on offense. Bad run blocking, or a wayward pass, a drop of something that should be caught. A bad call of a play. Something just seems to go the shape of pear on far too regular a basis - penalties also.

 

I would also say that the offensive game planning leaves a lot to be desired. It's not the first time that we have tried to be far too clever, to little avail. You wonder at times, if the coaches pay any attention at allto the stats. Bad run D, so we go pass heavy. Not so much head scratching, as infuriating.

 

As much as I think McDermott is a good HC, he needs to take some of the can for yesterday. On two counts. Firstly, allowing Daboll to go pass heavy as a gameplan, and secondly for going prevent on the drive the Browns scored the go ahead TD - that's something we see too much of.

 

Currently, the offense might be singing from the same songsheet, but they aren't all on the same verse. ;(

 

Talent wise, the O still needs another tackle, and a top WR.

 

I think you fairly pointed out Shaw, in a game of small margins, the Bills were marginally short in most areas.

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, Buddo said:

Nice write up as usual Shaw.

 

For me, the major problem on offense, is that we do nothing well consistently. Some weeks we run ok, some weeks we pass ok, some weeks the kicker makes his FGs. Trouble is, we haven't done all 3 on a regular basis.

 

Then there's the play calling. Which goes between brilliant and abysmal as a regular event. There might be a huge playbook, but you don't have to try and use it all every game. Find the stuff that works, get that sorted out, and then add to it.

 

We seem to be regularly doing something wrong every set of downs on offense. Bad run blocking, or a wayward pass, a drop of something that should be caught. A bad call of a play. Something just seems to go the shape of pear on far too regular a basis - penalties also.

 

I would also say that the offensive game planning leaves a lot to be desired. It's not the first time that we have tried to be far too clever, to little avail. You wonder at times, if the coaches pay any attention at allto the stats. Bad run D, so we go pass heavy. Not so much head scratching, as infuriating.

 

As much as I think McDermott is a good HC, he needs to take some of the can for yesterday. On two counts. Firstly, allowing Daboll to go pass heavy as a gameplan, and secondly for going prevent on the drive the Browns scored the go ahead TD - that's something we see too much of.

 

Currently, the offense might be singing from the same songsheet, but they aren't all on the same verse. ;(

 

Talent wise, the O still needs another tackle, and a top WR.

 

I think you fairly pointed out Shaw, in a game of small margins, the Bills were marginally short in most areas.

 

 

 

 

I think you're generally right about this.   I have a slightly different guess, but it amounts to the same thing.

 

Of course, I don't know what's actually going on, but I think Daboll is trying to do what he saw done in New England.  That is - heavy film study to assess strengths and weaknesses. then intense planning to figure out what the coaches think they can do successfully against the opponent.   Of course, that's what every team does, but the Pats have taken it to another level.  I wouldn't be surprised if Daboll is trying to be as clever as he's seen Belichick's people be.   The problem is that it takes a special form of intelligence to do what Belichick does, because he sees things others don't, and he's creative about how to attack what he sees.   Belichick has a lifetime of doing it, learning and learning.   

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if Daboll is, as you and others have said, too clever for his own good.   He may think he outthink the opponent, like he's seen Belichick do, but he can't, at least not yet.   Belichick's a genius, but he wasn't outthinking opponents all the time when he was Daboll's age.  He was still learning.  He's still learning today.  

 

In his defense, I'd guess that he's trying be clever about his game plans because he knows he doesn't have the horsepower to simply overpower the opponent with the same thing week after week.   Andy Reid may have that luxury, so he can just run his offense out there and challenge the defense to stop it.   Daboll doesn't have a great offensive line, he doesn't an Amari Cooper, he doesn't have a Nick Chubb, and he has a young QB, so he needs to be creative.  Still, he may be overdoing it.  

[Protocal69]

I am not sure what all the complaining is about. In the beginning of the year we all thought this was a 8-10 win team. At no point was people expecting us to just blow teams out every week. After one loss to a team talent wise that has enough to make it to a Superbowl people want to act like we are 3-6. Vegas since everybody wants to defer to them had us as a 6 win team finishing 3rd in the AFC EAST.

 

We have problems just like most teams. We have beat the teams we should have beaten. We lost a game Sunday to the browns who with all their talent " added another probowl player in Kareem hunt on offense on the ROAD by 3.

 

Yes we are not good enough to be getting into shootouts and winning but if we handle our business and make it into the wildcard and win a playoff game then the season will be a success relatively speaking.

 

Anybody calling for McDermott head is fool. When is the last time the BILLS fired a head coach that has made the playoffs within 2 seasons of doing so. People should just calm down it quit crying. To each its own though.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

Agree but speaking of Kroft where was he yesterday.  All this money for A TE that is invisible.  I haven't looked yet but wondering if Knox is getting more reps than Kroft

 

He is.  58% vs 43% for Kroft, and that's up for Kroft from Washington.

[billspro]

They definitely have better skill players than us. It would be hard to find 5 teams that have a worse WR and RB core than us. 

 

I dont agree with Mayfield outplaying Allen though. It was probably a wash, although Allen made more big time throws so I would give him the edge.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Protocal69 said:

I am not sure what all the complaining is about. In the beginning of the year we all thought this was a 8-10 win team. At no point was people expecting us to just blow teams out every week. After one loss to a team talent wise that has enough to make it to a Superbowl people want to act like we are 3-6. Vegas since everybody wants to defer to them had us as a 6 win team finishing 3rd in the AFC EAST.

 

We have problems just like most teams. We have beat the teams we should have beaten. We lost a game Sunday to the browns who with all their talent " added another probowl player in Kareem hunt on offense on the ROAD by 3.

 

Yes we are not good enough to be getting into shootouts and winning but if we handle our business and make it into the wildcard and win a playoff game then the season will be a success relatively speaking.

 

Anybody calling for McDermott head is fool. When is the last time the BILLS fired a head coach that has made the playoffs within 2 seasons of doing so. People should just calm down it quit crying. To each its own though.

 

I'm not sure who in this thread was complaining.  Seems like a pretty rational discussion among people who generally agree with what you're saying.  

[Protocal69]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not sure who in this thread was complaining.  Seems like a pretty rational discussion among people who generally agree with what you're saying.  

Fans on Bills fourms, media outlets (WGR) and general consensus ( Youtube). Def have to play better with what we have. 

[Freddie's Dead]

I disagree with the premise that the Bills don't have enough.  They have enough talent on the field.  They don't have enough talent off the field.  Dabollocks dialing up an 80/20 pass/run mix was idiocy.  McD's lack of game and clock management really hurt us at the end.  With good coaching, we're 8-1 if not 9-0.  Now we got no error margin left.  If we can beat one of the Cowboys, Ravens, or Cheats, 11-5 still possible, otherwise we have to run the table just to get to 10-6.  Still might be good enough for the WC, but more exciting than it should be.

[Turk71]

13 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Need to run more.  Eventually Singletary will bust one for 20.  They completely abandoned the run.  And the kicker needs to make that 34 yarder.  It's just a bit beyond the extra point kick.  They never called the Browns for holding.  They were doing that all day long.

I agree. It's hard to say the Bills don't run the ball well enough when Singletary is averaging 6 yds a carry but only gets 8 carries a game. 41 passes and 14 handoffs  against one of the worst run defenses in the league, in a game that was close throughout is just ridiculous.

[dakrider]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Brown and Beasley are nice receivers, but they can’t challenge defensive backs on every play like Beckham and Landry. 

a game like this showcased how receivers are literally half the passing game.

 

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

But Allen isn’t yet the guy who is so good, so knowledgeable, that he can put the team on his back and win when the rest of the offense is overmatched.  He might become that guy, but he isn’t that guy yet.

Thats the thing, the Bills offense often requires Allen to be perfect on every play.  Overall Allen had a good enough game.  He missed on a long pass he should have hit and he had a fumble, that had it not happened then the Bills would have had to settle for a FG there anyway instead of getting the TD.  Allen also had to be the one to score the 2 rushing TD's because it was apparent Gore wasn't going get it in.  If you go down the list of the reasons the Bills lost, Allen is not towards the top of that list. 

[Figster]

4 hours ago, dakrider said:

a game like this showcased how receivers are literally half the passing game.

 

Thats the thing, the Bills offense often requires Allen to be perfect on every play.  Overall Allen had a good enough game.  He missed on a long pass he should have hit and he had a fumble, that had it not happened then the Bills would have had to settle for a FG there anyway instead of getting the TD.  Allen also had to be the one to score the 2 rushing TD's because it was apparent Gore wasn't going get it in.  If you go down the list of the reasons the Bills lost, Allen is not towards the top of that list. 

The Bills lack consistency on O and Allens decision making could be part of the problem. When you go long on 3rd and 3 on a low percentage play its poor decision making on Allens part. In a tightly contested football game its imparative you keep drives alive and score points. Poor execution on a fairly high percentage of plays leads me to believe the lack of execution is also a big problem.

 

If I'm Daboll, I would pull back on the reigns with Allen a little,  and the play book. Sit down together, figure out whats working and what is not. Get some kind of consistency going.  

Edited November 12, 2019 by Figster

[T master]

I think the Bills have the talent to get the job done & given what happened if Haushka hits the 2 he missed Bills win thanks in a huge part to the D I think it was a huge mistake to abandon the run game given you have a HOF back that is 4th all time in yards & a guy drafted because he can make people miss in a phone booth quote unquote !

 

It seems as though like some coaches from the Bills past they aren't utilizing the talent they have to it's fullest, & they are abandoning a game plan to quickly .

 

The Browns are very talented but so are the Bills & i think if they would let Josh air it out a bit more like he did last year design more boot leg type passes to use his athleticism in the passing game & use more designed QB runs (like the Ravens) then don't abandon the running game & use Dimarco more in the run game like the Vikings did against the Boys Sunday night it would be a different result !

 

With Duke, Beasley, Brown, Foster, Dimarco , Gore , Singletary, Yeldon, Josh, & the others they have as weapons this team could be unstoppable if used better IMHO !!  

Edited November 12, 2019 by T master

[ILBillsfan]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He is.  58% vs 43% for Kroft, and that's up for Kroft from Washington.

Looks like Kroft is becoming expendable and free up $$$ for next year

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, dakrider said:

a game like this showcased how receivers are literally half the passing game.

 

Thats the thing, the Bills offense often requires Allen to be perfect on every play.  Overall Allen had a good enough game.  He missed on a long pass he should have hit and he had a fumble, that had it not happened then the Bills would have had to settle for a FG there anyway instead of getting the TD.  Allen also had to be the one to score the 2 rushing TD's because it was apparent Gore wasn't going get it in.  If you go down the list of the reasons the Bills lost, Allen is not towards the top of that list. 

No, I don't think it's the offense.  I think it's Allen.  He's young and inexperienced.   He doesn't know yet how to read all the defenses, to get the team into the right plays, and to make the right decisions.   The Pats, of course, are the ultimate example.   Yes, you can argue they have elite offensive game planning, but if you have mediocre players at a lot of positions, game planning only takes you so far.  In the final analysis, on the field you need a QB who understands what's going on and executes, a QB like Brady.   Allen isn't there yet.   It takes years to learn and master all the concepts and to make the split second decisions that are necessary. 

 

I think Allen has the talent.  We already see how calm he is in the huddle and at the line of scrimmage.   We see that he has good pocket presence and awareness.  And we see that, WHEN HE SEES WHAT"S GOING ON, he executes very nicely.   He has all the skills.   He just has to keep learning the game.   He was 22 for 41 on Sunday not  because the offense sucks - he was 22 for 41 because he didn't see a half dozen opportunities to change the play or throw to a better option.  A half dozen opportunities is half dozen completions at 10 yards per completion, which is a 300-yard passing day and probably the difference between a win and a loss.   

 

When you're throwing to Jarvis Landry as your number two wideout, it isn't so difficult - the guy is going to get open a lot.   But Allen isn't throwing to Beckham and Landry; he's throwing to two guys a notch below.   So he has to be better technically - Mayfield can get away with not understanding because he has those receivers. 

 

Allen's still learning.  He works hard at his job.   I think he'll be fine.   But it takes time.  And a top notch receiver wouldn't hurt. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Shaw66

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

I disagree with the premise that the Bills don't have enough.  They have enough talent on the field.  They don't have enough talent off the field.  Dabollocks dialing up an 80/20 pass/run mix was idiocy.  McD's lack of game and clock management really hurt us at the end.  With good coaching, we're 8-1 if not 9-0.  Now we got no error margin left.  If we can beat one of the Cowboys, Ravens, or Cheats, 11-5 still possible, otherwise we have to run the table just to get to 10-6.  Still might be good enough for the WC, but more exciting than it should be.

I'm the one who says the game is mostly about coaching, and I am absolutely sure there were coaching mistakes on Sunday.  

 

But I think there point about no margin for error is that if your offensive line is mediocre and your QB is young and your skill position players are average, it means the coaches have no margin for error.  They have to be perfect to get good play out of that collection of offensive players.   

 

I don't know enough about the game to know what exactly the coaches could have done better, but I'm sure there are things.   And I really like the McDermott system, because the system critiques the coaches regularly, figures out where the coaches are falling down and corrects it.  The Bills are designed to learn from every game and to improve.   Whatever the coaches should have done in the Browns game is becoming part of what they DO do this week.   

[billspro]

11 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

I disagree with the premise that the Bills don't have enough.  They have enough talent on the field.  They don't have enough talent off the field.  Dabollocks dialing up an 80/20 pass/run mix was idiocy.  McD's lack of game and clock management really hurt us at the end.  With good coaching, we're 8-1 if not 9-0.  Now we got no error margin left.  If we can beat one of the Cowboys, Ravens, or Cheats, 11-5 still possible, otherwise we have to run the table just to get to 10-6.  Still might be good enough for the WC, but more exciting than it should be.

 

We have NFL quality player but defensive coordinators are not scared of Beasley, Brown, and Singletary. That is a very average group and it would be difficult to find a worse trio. Bottom third of the league talent wise for sure. Now if we add a star WR in round 1, another good RB in round 3, and Knox develops this could turn into a top 10 group. Everyone will be better if we add a playmaker.

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, I don't think it's the offense.  I think it's Allen.  He's young and inexperienced.   He doesn't know yet how to read all the defenses, to get the team into the right plays, and to make the right decisions.   The Pats, of course, are the ultimate example.   Yes, you can argue they have elite offensive game planning, but if you have mediocre players at a lot of positions, game planning only takes you so far.  In the final analysis, on the field you need a QB who understands what's going on and executes, a QB like Brady.   Allen isn't there yet.   It takes years to learn and master all the concepts and to make the split second decisions that are necessary. 

 

I think Allen has the talent.  We already see how calm he is in the huddle and at the line of scrimmage.   We see that he has good pocket presence and awareness.  And we see that, WHEN HE SEES WHAT"S GOING ON, he executes very nicely.   He has all the skills.   He just has to keep learning the game.   He was 22 for 41 on Sunday not  because the offense sucks - he was 22 for 41 because he didn't see a half dozen opportunities to change the play or throw to a better option.  A half dozen opportunities is half dozen completions at 10 yards per completion, which is a 300-yard passing day and probably the difference between a win and a loss.   

 

When you're throwing to Jarvis Landry as your number two wideout, it isn't so difficult - the guy is going to get open a lot.   But Allen isn't throwing to Beckham and Landry; he's throwing to two guys a notch below.   So he has to be better technically - Mayfield can get away with not understanding because he has those receivers. 

 

Allen's still learning.  He works hard at his job.   I think he'll be fine.   But it takes time.  And a top notch receiver wouldn't hurt. 

 

This is a fantastic post. That is similar to how I viewed his play.

[Figster]

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, I don't think it's the offense.  I think it's Allen.  He's young and inexperienced.   He doesn't know yet how to read all the defenses, to get the team into the right plays, and to make the right decisions.   The Pats, of course, are the ultimate example.   Yes, you can argue they have elite offensive game planning, but if you have mediocre players at a lot of positions, game planning only takes you so far.  In the final analysis, on the field you need a QB who understands what's going on and executes, a QB like Brady.   Allen isn't there yet.   It takes years to learn and master all the concepts and to make the split second decisions that are necessary. 

 

I think Allen has the talent.  We already see how calm he is in the huddle and at the line of scrimmage.   We see that he has good pocket presence and awareness.  And we see that, WHEN HE SEES WHAT"S GOING ON, he executes very nicely.   He has all the skills.   He just has to keep learning the game.   He was 22 for 41 on Sunday not  because the offense sucks - he was 22 for 41 because he didn't see a half dozen opportunities to change the play or throw to a better option.  A half dozen opportunities is half dozen completions at 10 yards per completion, which is a 300-yard passing day and probably the difference between a win and a loss.   

 

When you're throwing to Jarvis Landry as your number two wideout, it isn't so difficult - the guy is going to get open a lot.   But Allen isn't throwing to Beckham and Landry; he's throwing to two guys a notch below.   So he has to be better technically - Mayfield can get away with not understanding because he has those receivers. 

 

Allen's still learning.  He works hard at his job.   I think he'll be fine.   But it takes time.  And a top notch receiver wouldn't hurt. 

It does take time and Allens forte is high velocity laser shots into tight windows. Nothing touch about it. Heavy practice on short to mid range I think hurt Allens long ball. Josh Allen is a work in progress.

 

A top notch receiver wouldn't hurt, and has to be at the top of the list of things to do for McBeane.

 

Its time to circle the wagons around Allen...

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Figster