Rational Thoughts after the Browns

[kbarrettb]

4 minutes ago, Sunshower said:

Ah ah, I disagree. He is a project QB 2 years in. Guy is a weapon running and throwing let’s see how the next 7 games go. They say it takes 3 years to judge a QB, I’m still very optimistic about Josh.

Project QB perfect 

1 minute ago, frostbitmic said:

Yes, Josh is a young QB who is average at best ... Team him up with a slightly below average OC who has been around awhile and fired at least a couple of times in this league, and you have the recipe for an offense that can't score. Team that up with a HC who plays to keep the score close instead of trying to choke the life out of the other team and we get what we got yesterday.

 

This week we play a Dolphin team we barely beat at home and who now has won 2 straight games, and we play them in their crib. This game will come down to a FG late... UGH !!!

Now blame the OC perfect. How’s the old crappy OC doing in Baltimore we had? With a better QB you get better results. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

1. Yesterday was a foundation shaking moment with the coaching staff that questions a bit the long term viability of this staff. You play to win you don’t play to tie. On the final drive the offense is moving and the moment they hit FG range the coaching staff panicked. The NFL is an offense driven attack league and you are rewarded for doing so. To not go for the win was as bad as Rex punting agaisnt Miami. Long term the defense will not be great with free agency, salary cap, age etc that set in. Your going to have to win with your QB and scoring. My faith they understand and will do this is shaken at this point.

 

2. Cole Beasley had his best game to this point and he and Josh seem to finally have some chemistry. It’s take a bit compared to Allen and J Brown but it’s good to see that improvement has come. If the Bills have any hope of the playoffs moving forward they need Beasley their to help.

 

3. Against the 30th ranked rushing defense that was your plan? It’s maddening that a player like Singletary gets just 8 rushes against that defense. If they loss but ran Singletary 25 times I honestly would be less mad then 8 carries. This feels like Chan and CJ Spiller all over again.

 

4. The offense in general cannot get out of its own way. They should be scoring 20+ pts a game yet they take a penalty, Miss a FG, drop a ball, Miss a throw etc it’s tiresome. Their not bad their inconsistent which is almost worse. It was easier last year just to say they suck and best of luck Josh. This year they do have some talent and I’m losing hair with the mistakes they make.
 

5. Allen was ok. He had his misses, he had his plays, idk what to say anymore. The coaching staff seems to want him as just a game manager and by removing the hero ball quality the offense is less dynamic. They drafted him to make plays and instead have neutered him down to never taking shots. Why bother cutting Tyrod if this is what to ur comfortable with.

 

6. This is less game more Bills in general. It has been a long twenty years now of the team not taking that next step not making the statement and instead ripping your heart in pieces in front of you. The shadow that haunts all of us that exists because of these years grew larger yesterday and feels more unavoidable. You know when your franchise has it’s turning point moment and that you can buy into really believing the bigger days are coming. I think to the Seahawks and Wilson knocking off NE at home in 2012 as their big break through.

 

Fans for weeks have battled over the value of a win because we haven’t had this moment. For a organization in year 3 I think you hope it happens soon. By the same point it’s so tough being a fan and I don’t blame anyone with unrest/fear/disappointment with the team. Lucy has pulled that football from us soo many times, how can you not feel the shadow of past failures in 2011 or 08 creep closer especially after yesterday’s disaster.

 

Assuming the Bills do what they should against MIA/DEN they have four games in a row with that chance that maybe things are finally different and you can turn that corner a bit. By the same token they’ve created a situation where many doubt if the Dallas game even matters to the extend it does now. It’s just become so hard in ways to have fun and believe when the amount of evidence for years makes you want to say no.

 

7. Tre White passed hit top WR test. In his first two years when he faced the likes of AJ Green or Keenan Allen they beat him for one or two big plays. Not yesterday. The all pro press is real and deserved and I’m happy for Tre.

 

8. Robert Foster is looking more and more like just another guy who had a few nice moments. It’s disappointing because I loved his play last year and he felt like such a possible focal point to the offense. Overall I think this regime has done a great job drafting, but Foster was that offensive possible gem you hoped turned into the guy especially with how many other skill position offensive guys haven’t worked out.

 

9. If you went to the game what was it like attending and the stadium? 

 

I don't know how one titles a thread "Rational Thoughts" and then starts the OP with "Yesterday was a foundation shaking moment."  

 

Seriously, hyperbole is the opposite of rational. 

[Phil The Thrill]

14 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

Nice to hear clam rational thoughts vs the other side of the coin.

 

The game plan was maddening I expected a lot of Singletary/Gore in this game with the Browns so gad vs the run instead the pass happy offense which I think plays into the Browns stronger suit

“Yesterday was a foundational shaking moment”

 

Yep...sounds pretty rational

[Iverwig]

1 minute ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Unlike some who simply want Allen to cover up for everything  by being Patrick Mahomes I have a different view . We are better when we spread the field with McKenzie and open up running lanes and pick up the tempo. Our tempo is slow and the plays in our games are way down since the NE game. When we go "heavy" with Lee Smith and Gore running the power game we stink. We commit penalties, we get behind the stick and we don't help our young, raw QB. JA seems to get into a much better rhythm as a thrower. I would get rid of Lee Smith, and go with only Knox and Croft. I would activate Duke as another option for different situations. Spread it out, pick up the tempo and run/pass balance. The coaching staff has done the Offense no favors recently, and with a dearth of playmakers, better smarten up.

 

 

I agree that they need to spread the ball around and go up tempo however, I do not believe Coach McD wants that in order to protect his defense. This staff is not doing Josh any favors and I do not have confidence they will allow him to be what I think he can become. Some Fans blame Josh for everything gone wrong with the offense and he has made his mistakes but, for them to defend Daboll who has been terrible as an OC every stop (NFL) he’s been tells me either 1. They never liked a Josh to start or 2. They don’t really no football. 

[whatdrought]

Good post. I think it was definitely a "air out of sails" moment that's hard to ignore, but we're either a good team that will use this as motivation to come back bigger and better, or we'll begin collapsing on our way to a mediocre season that will likely still be considered an improvement of where people expected us. The future is bright still, but losing games the other team is begging us to win definitely throws a cloud in the sky. 

[frostbitmic]

2 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

Project QB perfect 

Now blame the OC perfect. How’s the old crappy OC doing in Baltimore we had? With a better QB you get better results. 

Did that OC coach Josh Allen ? ... no

 

Didn't that OC coach under the great Rex Ryan ?

 

It's like comparing Apples to Kumquats.

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

1. Yesterday was a foundation shaking moment with the coaching staff that questions a bit the long term viability of this staff. You play to win you don’t play to tie. On the final drive the offense is moving and the moment they hit FG range the coaching staff panicked. The NFL is an offense driven attack league and you are rewarded for doing so. To not go for the win was as bad as Rex punting agaisnt Miami. Long term the defense will not be great with free agency, salary cap, age etc that set in. Your going to have to win with your QB and scoring. My faith they understand and will do this is shaken at this point.

 

2. Cole Beasley had his best game to this point and he and Josh seem to finally have some chemistry. It’s take a bit compared to Allen and J Brown but it’s good to see that improvement has come. If the Bills have any hope of the playoffs moving forward they need Beasley their to help.

 

3. Against the 30th ranked rushing defense that was your plan? It’s maddening that a player like Singletary gets just 8 rushes against that defense. If they loss but ran Singletary 25 times I honestly would be less mad then 8 carries. This feels like Chan and CJ Spiller all over again.

 

4. The offense in general cannot get out of its own way. They should be scoring 20+ pts a game yet they take a penalty, Miss a FG, drop a ball, Miss a throw etc it’s tiresome. Their not bad their inconsistent which is almost worse. It was easier last year just to say they suck and best of luck Josh. This year they do have some talent and I’m losing hair with the mistakes they make.
 

5. Allen was ok. He had his misses, he had his plays, idk what to say anymore. The coaching staff seems to want him as just a game manager and by removing the hero ball quality the offense is less dynamic. They drafted him to make plays and instead have neutered him down to never taking shots. Why bother cutting Tyrod if this is what to ur comfortable with.

 

6. This is less game more Bills in general. It has been a long twenty years now of the team not taking that next step not making the statement and instead ripping your heart in pieces in front of you. The shadow that haunts all of us that exists because of these years grew larger yesterday and feels more unavoidable. You know when your franchise has it’s turning point moment and that you can buy into really believing the bigger days are coming. I think to the Seahawks and Wilson knocking off NE at home in 2012 as their big break through.

 

Fans for weeks have battled over the value of a win because we haven’t had this moment. For a organization in year 3 I think you hope it happens soon. By the same point it’s so tough being a fan and I don’t blame anyone with unrest/fear/disappointment with the team. Lucy has pulled that football from us soo many times, how can you not feel the shadow of past failures in 2011 or 08 creep closer especially after yesterday’s disaster.

 

Assuming the Bills do what they should against MIA/DEN they have four games in a row with that chance that maybe things are finally different and you can turn that corner a bit. By the same token they’ve created a situation where many doubt if the Dallas game even matters to the extend it does now. It’s just become so hard in ways to have fun and believe when the amount of evidence for years makes you want to say no.

 

7. Tre White passed hit top WR test. In his first two years when he faced the likes of AJ Green or Keenan Allen they beat him for one or two big plays. Not yesterday. The all pro press is real and deserved and I’m happy for Tre.

 

8. Robert Foster is looking more and more like just another guy who had a few nice moments. It’s disappointing because I loved his play last year and he felt like such a possible focal point to the offense. Overall I think this regime has done a great job drafting, but Foster was that offensive possible gem you hoped turned into the guy especially with how many other skill position offensive guys haven’t worked out.

 

9. If you went to the game what was it like attending and the stadium? 

That sums it up nicely. McDermitt better learn quick how to step on an opponents neck  and also remove himself from his love fest of a few players; Lee Smith, DiMarco, and Gore. They are all a huge liability- Smith the most with his penalties.

[Iverwig]

4 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

Project QB perfect 

Now blame the OC perfect. How’s the old crappy OC doing in Baltimore we had? With a better QB you get better results. 

1. Baltimore is a MUCH better organization and staff then the Bills. 
2. Please show me what kind of success Daboll has EVER  had as an OC. His only success came at Alabama where he had much more talent than everyone else. As a matter of fact if you look at his offensive rankings this year compared to his other NFL OC stops he’s actually doing better with Josh as his QB. Every other stop Daboll was at his offense ranked at the bottom of the league. 
3. Roman at least had some success but more importantly he NEVER coached Josh here so you can’t compare. 

4 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Did that OC coach Josh Allen ? ... no

 

Didn't that OC coach under the great Rex Ryan ?

 

It's like comparing Apples to Kumquats.

Like you said apples and oranges. I laugh at some of the fans around here. It’s like I posted in another post half these fans don’t really know football. 

[corta765]

18 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

“Yesterday was a foundational shaking moment”

 

Yep...sounds pretty rational

didn’t say it was over and can them tomorrow. McD rebounded from the Peterman mess quite well in 2017 so he has shown the capacity to do so.

 

By the same token that was a blunder to the level of every former HC we got rid of. Can’t be ignored and it brings up valid questions on their coaching abilities. Where they go from here is up to McD and it could be a blip or it could be part of a trend. I’m not going to ignore or give a pass to that bad of a coaching moment.

 

like I said further down we have twenty years plus of failure or pessimism so it takes a toll. For the record I still think McD can get them to the playoffs and I wouldn’t be stunned if they upset a good team on the way to doing that.

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Unlike some who simply want Allen to cover up for everything  by being Patrick Mahomes I have a different view . We are better when we spread the field with McKenzie and open up running lanes and pick up the tempo. Our tempo is slow and the plays in our games are way down since the NE game. When we go "heavy" with Lee Smith and Gore running the power game we stink. We commit penalties, we get behind the stick and we don't help our young, raw QB. JA seems to get into a much better rhythm as a thrower. I would get rid of Lee Smith, and go with only Knox and Croft. I would activate Duke as another option for different situations. Spread it out, pick up the tempo and run/pass balance. The coaching staff has done the Offense no favors recently, and with a dearth of playmakers, better smarten up.

 

 

I agree 100% with everything you said. Amen, brother!!

[K-9]

When you’re outcoached by Freddy Kitchens, not much else can be said. McD is simply too rigid in his thinking, taking after Ron Rivera when it comes to playing not to lose. And Daboll continues to disappoint. He coaches like he has zero confidence in his players. Hard for players to play when their balls are held in a jar inside the medical tent. 

[Southern Bills Fan]

It did appear to me that the coaching staff was unprepared when we reached the 35 with about 50 seconds left. That’s inexcusable. We should have kept throwing, we had momentum and the Browns back on their heels. 

[kbarrettb]

29 minutes ago, Iverwig said:

1. Baltimore is a MUCH better organization and staff then the Bills. 
2. Please show me what kind of success Daboll has EVER  had as an OC. His only success came at Alabama where he had much more talent than everyone else. As a matter of fact if you look at his offensive rankings this year compared to his other NFL OC stops he’s actually doing better with Josh as his QB. Every other stop Daboll was at his offense ranked at the bottom of the league. 
3. Roman at least had some success but more importantly he NEVER coached Josh here so you can’t compare. 

Like you said apples and oranges. I laugh at some of the fans around here. It’s like I posted in another post half these fans don’t really know football. 

I wish you knew football. Make every excuse in the book. Last year it was a bad OC. This year bad OC. The year before that bad OC. Maybe it’s not the bad OC or coaching staff. Maybe it’s that our quarterback isn’t great. You can have the best OC in the world and if u have a bad to mediocre QB he’s not gonna be able to do anything with him. Allen’s got to be better. Our defense gave up less than 20 points. We should be able to win that game. But keep blaming everything else. 

[msw2112]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’m curious if the catastrophe at the end was strategy or just incompetence , confusion and lack of preparation. In the heat of the moment, I wasn’t thinking it was deliberate. It looked like a cluster. 

 

I have/had the same thoughts.  I couldn't figure out what they were trying to do. I'm not sure they could either.  What I do know is that they had plenty of time, were in a decent rhythm and the Browns were on their heels (as mentioned above).  You go for the win, and if you can't get in the end zone, you at least get closer in for a high percentage field goal.  You use all of the clock available to you to attempt this.  Were they trying to bleed the clock so that they didn't leave time for the Browns to get the ball back?  You do that when you are inside the 20, perhaps, although arguably you still go for the win.  With where they were on the field, the time remaining, the possession of a TO, a struggling kicker, etc., what they did made no sense. 

 

I'm not as pessimistic as many here about the future of the team, as it's just one game and they have a lot of growing yet to do, but I'm certainly disappointed in the loss yesterday.  If you lose you lose, but you should lose after taking your best (and smartest) shot and go down swinging.  Sometimes players make plays and sometimes they don't, but the coaching staff's job is to make the right decisions to give the team the best shot at the best possible outcome.  What they did (or didn't do) was terrible.

Edited November 11, 2019 by msw2112

[Iverwig]

3 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

I wish you knew football. Make every excuse in the book. Last year it was a bad OC. This year bad OC. The year before that bad OC. Maybe it’s not the bad OC or coaching staff. Maybe it’s that our quarterback isn’t great. You can have the best OC in the world and if u have a bad to mediocre QB he’s not gonna be able to do anything with him. Allen’s got to be better. Our defense gave up less than 20 points. We should be able to win that game. But keep blaming everything else. 

Allen does need to be better but he is a second year QB. PLEASE, show me where Daboll has been any good as an OC in the NFL. His predecessor before him was Dennison who was bad as well.
 

How can you place Daboll before a second year QB when Daboll has a track record of every offense he’s ever coached in the NFL rank at the BOTTOM of the league offensively? 

 

Does Josh have issues? Yes, but no one in their right mind expected him to be consistent his second year. Coach McD made bad hires offensively and that’s what happens with defensive minded head coaches. 
 

Not to get lost in my post - show me ANYTIME Daboll has had success as an NFL OC. I guarantee you can’t because I actually checked where his offenses have ranked and like I said Josh is actually making him look better ranking wise then any other stop he’s had as an OC. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you. 
 

[Z-Mann]

47 minutes ago, Iverwig said:

1. Baltimore is a MUCH better organization and staff then the Bills. 
2. Please show me what kind of success Daboll has EVER  had as an OC. His only success came at Alabama where he had much more talent than everyone else. As a matter of fact if you look at his offensive rankings this year compared to his other NFL OC stops he’s actually doing better with Josh as his QB. Every other stop Daboll was at his offense ranked at the bottom of the league. 
3. Roman at least had some success but more importantly he NEVER coached Josh here so you can’t compare. 

Like you said apples and oranges. I laugh at some of the fans around here. It’s like I posted in another post half these fans don’t really know football. 

 

I feel like his only point was, that we are quick to blame the offensive coordinator than we are our QB...that was the case with Roman/Tyrod (although Tyrod clearly had his detractors), and I see the same pattern here.  Lots of people blaming the OC more than the QB.  Maybe the QB just has too many limitations at this point in his career, which hampers what they can do on the field?

[kbarrettb]

8 minutes ago, Iverwig said:

Allen does need to be better but he is a second year QB. PLEASE, show me where Daboll has been any good as an OC in the NFL. His predecessor before him was Dennison who was bad as well.
 

How can you place Daboll before a second year QB when Daboll has a track record of every offense he’s ever coached in the NFL rank at the BOTTOM of the league offensively? 

 

Does Josh have issues? Yes, but no one in their right mind expected him to be consistent his second year. Coach McD made bad hires offensively and that’s what happens with defensive minded head coaches. 
 

Not to get lost in my post - show me ANYTIME Daboll has had success as an NFL OC. I guarantee you can’t because I actually checked where his offenses have ranked and like I said Josh is actually making him look better ranking wise then any other stop he’s had as an OC. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you. 
 

Josh is the issue. It’s always on the quarterback. Watson lit things up his first year. How’s Maholmes doing? Blame Josh being young all you want. But there are QBs who have been good who are young. Russel has never had a great OC and he seems to be doing just fine.  Josh needs to be better. 

[Iverwig]

Just now, Z-Mann said:

 

I feel like his only point was, that we are quick to blame the offensive coordinator than we are our QB...that was the case with Roman/Tyrod (although Tyrod clearly had his detractors), and I see the same pattern here.  Lots of people blaming the OC more than the QB.  Maybe the QB just has too many limitations at this point in his career, which hampers what they can do on the field?

Fair point but truth be told outside of a Lamar Jackson all the other 1st round QB’s from last year are struggling. Everyone knew the QB the Bills drafted was a project.  He has potential to be boom or bust and he’s shown both but I just don’t have confidence in this staff to develop him to what he has the potential to be.  

Just now, kbarrettb said:

Josh is the issue. It’s always on the quarterback. Watson lit things up his first year. How’s Maholmes doing? Blame Josh being young all you want. But there are QBs who have been good who are young. Russel has never had a great OC and he seems to be doing just fine.  Josh needs to be better. 

Russel has Pete Carrol as his head coach BIG difference between he and Coach McD and it’s not even close. Mahomes sat his entire first year and has arguably the best offensive minded HC in charge of him. Although I truly believe Watson is a much better QB than a Josh look at the weapons he has in comparison to what the Bilks have. Josh needs to be better I said that but let’s not act like he has a quality offensive minded coach leading him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

One thing that dawned on me regarding the three losses this year..

 

One was vs the Patriots

Two were against teams that essentially had their seasons on the line.

 

Right.  And both the Iggles and the Browns are not the bad teams some have portrayed.  The Iggles have durn good coaching to help fill in for injuries.  The Browns have talent.

 

But the point remains: if the Bills want to be seen as legit, if they truly believe they are "playoff caliber", they need to at least split the games with great teams or with "cornered badgers".  When you let two cornered badgers beat your butt, maybe you're bad, not Baaaaad.

[corta765]

16 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

If you lose you lose, but you should lose after taking your best (and smartest) shot and go down swinging.  Sometimes players make plays and sometimes they don't, but the coaching staff's job is to make the right decisions to give the team the best shot at the best possible outcome.  What they did (or didn't do) was terrible.

 

This times a million. If they properly manage the end of the game and Singletary is getting 20-22 carries my concerns with coaching are gone and I'm looking a player execution. But I felt despite the mistakes of the players the coaches hamstrung their ability to win.

 

They have fixed this before so I will give them benefit of the doubt while keeping in mind this.