Boatdrinks Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, MAJBobby said: It was the right call. That is why every team runs those plays. Takes the Fumble out of Play. And it was forward Baker was deeper than Hunt and ball went thru Hunts arms Yep. If it went thru Hunts arms and into Hughes hands it would have been an INT. It hit the ground, therefore it’s incomplete. Not sure why people can’t understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 I get that this situation is a one off, but if this play is going to keep happening in the league, I think it should be evaluated from an officiating standpoint. By what he know to be a pass, that wasn't a pass. I don't know if it's worth the time to change the rules for, again a one off, but what's the difference between a forward hand off and this play? It was underhand. You could argue he more dropped that ball than pushed it. If you'd never seen the play before, you could argue it was a bad hand off. You can't officiate intent, but that wasn't meant to be a pass. Either way, I fully understand based upon the rules why it was ruled an incomplete pass. For the intent of the play, should have been a fumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Yep. If it went thru Hunts arms and into Hughes hands it would have been an INT. It hit the ground, therefore it’s incomplete. Not sure why people can’t understand this. not sure either. Very easy play and was called correctly like it has been all season actually on this type play not sure I ever remember the Refs getting it wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 When I saw it at full speed I thought we just won the game. As soon as I saw the replay I knew it was coming back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, Virgil said: I get that this situation is a one off, but if this play is going to keep happening in the league, I think it should be evaluated from an officiating standpoint. By what he know to be a pass, that wasn't a pass. I don't know if it's worth the time to change the rules for, again a one off, but what's the difference between a forward hand off and this play? It was underhand. You could argue he more dropped that ball than pushed it. If you'd never seen the play before, you could argue it was a bad hand off. You can't officiate intent, but that wasn't meant to be a pass. Either way, I fully understand based upon the rules why it was ruled an incomplete pass. For the intent of the play, should have been a fumble. Nah it’s been around for a long time, just a variation of a shovel pass. Takes the risk of a fumble out of the equation , but it can turn into an INT if batted around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) Quote Article 1 DefinitionIt is a forward pass if: (a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or (b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s). Did the ball move forward after leaving his hand? If yes, it is a forward pass. Did the ball first strike the ground or the player closer to our goal line than when it left Mayfield's hand? If yes, it is a forward pass. If neither of those things are true, it is a fumble. That is the way I read the rule. The only time the motion of his hand comes into play is if he contacts a player or was trying to tuck and loses the ball before he tucks according to the rules you posted. In this instance, Mayfield's hand motion has nothing to do with the play. The only thing that matters is whether or not the ball moved forward when it left his hand. To me it did not look like it was going forward. However, it really is tough to tell and I don't really have a problem with the call. Edited November 11, 2019 by Scott7975 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, frostbitmic said: When I saw it at full speed I thought we just won the game. As soon as I saw the replay I knew it was coming back. Agree full speed looked like a Botched Handoff. On replay clearly saw the flip forward and knew it was coming back as well. either way the inexcusable part was that Defense just going invisible the rest of that drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livinginthepast Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Nah it’s been around for a long time, just a variation of a shovel pass. Takes the risk of a fumble out of the equation , but it can turn into an INT if batted around. The shovel pass from Kelly to Thurman was one of my favorite Bills offensive plays in the K gun. I've always wondered why it was so effective back then but the high powered offenses of today don't tend to use it regularly (or at all). Was Thurman that special a player to run that play with effectiveness? Edited November 11, 2019 by Livinginthepast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Livinginthepast said: The shovel pass from Kelly to Thurman was one of my favorite Bills offensive plays in the K gun. I've always wondered why it was so effective back then but the high powered offenses of today don't tend to use it regularly (or at all). Was Thurman that special a player to run that play with effectiveness? Lol these plays go in and out of fashion, but I know what you mean. Still, that play always made me nervous for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 I am surprised they did not call it dead immediately and when they did not call it dead I thought it was gonna count since if it went forward at all it was so small. Though that has been called an incomplete all year. Basically I am saying they have been consistent and should have killed it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, Virgil said: I get that this situation is a one off, but if this play is going to keep happening in the league, I think it should be evaluated from an officiating standpoint. By what he know to be a pass, that wasn't a pass. I don't know if it's worth the time to change the rules for, again a one off, but what's the difference between a forward hand off and this play? It was underhand. You could argue he more dropped that ball than pushed it. If you'd never seen the play before, you could argue it was a bad hand off. You can't officiate intent, but that wasn't meant to be a pass. Either way, I fully understand based upon the rules why it was ruled an incomplete pass. For the intent of the play, should have been a fumble. This wasn't a one off, it's quite common and has been around a few years. We've been running it all year. So have many other teams. It's already been evaluated from an officiating standpoint as well. Some call it a pop pass and does not have to go forward to be ruled incomplete. When the play first came out the QB often turned and handed it off to the WR running behind them. When that was botched it was a fumble. Now the WR always runs in front of the QB and the QB & WR are never touching the ball at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said: This wasn't a one off, it's quite common and has been around a few years. We've been running it all year. So have many other teams. It's already been evaluated from an officiating standpoint as well. Some call it a pop pass and does not have to go forward to be ruled incomplete. When the play first came out the QB often turned and handed it off to the WR running behind them. When that was botched it was a fumble. Now the WR always runs in front of the QB and the QB & WR are never touching the ball at the same time. I was referring to the result of that particular play being a one off. My point is overall going forward if the play is going to continue to gain steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I am surprised they did not call it dead immediately and when they did not call it dead I thought it was gonna count since if it went forward at all it was so small. Though that has been called an incomplete all year. Basically I am saying they have been consistent and should have killed it immediately. Because all turnovers are reviewed the refs are letting things play out so they can ensure it gets reviewed and is correct without a coach having to challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Jobot said: Such confidence but your justifications make no sense. If someone were to provide an actual justification I would be thrilled. Just because you are stating as if this is obvious- Homerun throwback went from a player at the 29 to a player at 31. The question is did ball go forward from time of release - I think it did but if it did not go forward this call is wrong 3 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said: Because all turnovers are reviewed the refs are letting things play out so they can ensure it gets reviewed and is correct without a coach having to challenge. If it is a incomplete pass why not just kill it? That play is consistently called incomplete- it was not overturned by replay since you can not show it went forward but by NY official fixing their mistake of not calling dead immediately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Browns ran that play twice. It's about execution, something that frequently eludes the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: Just because you are stating as if this is obvious- Homerun throwback went from a player at the 29 to a player at 31. The question is did ball go forward from time of release - I think it did but if it did not go forward this call is wrong If it is a incomplete pass why not just kill it? That play is consistently called incomplete- it was not overturned by replay since you can not show it went forward but by NY official fixing their mistake of not calling dead immediately. I've just noticed that after the Saints got screwed earlier this year when refs blew a play dead as an incomplete pass (not a play like this) rather than letting the 80+ yard fumble return for a TD, the refs have been letting things play out more often...especially late in close games. Basically a CYA type thing. Also it doesn't matter on this play if the ball goes forward, as long as it doesn't clearly go backwards. It can go straight up and would still be considered incomplete if the WR drops it. Edited November 11, 2019 by Maybe Someday 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pennstate10 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Nextmanup said: I'm not sure why this play has justified 4 pages of commentary. It really wasn't a very unusual or controversial play. Ive got to say it stunning how many people don't understand this play. Did the ball clearly go forward? yes or no? from the replays I saw,there was no evidence that the ballwent forward. If if it didn't clearly go forward,then it's a backward pass and a TD for buffalo. The replay officials reversed the call. Where is the clear irrefutable evidence that the ballwent forward? A pretty simple question; I've not seen the answer in these 4 pages. Please realize that the answer has to be a picture or video or statement from an expert who has reviewed same. All the rest,especially comments from the Pats fan,is simply a waste of electrons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 It's only a fumble when we run the play, like last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, frostbitmic said: When I saw it at full speed I thought we just won the game. As soon as I saw the replay I knew it was coming back. Same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Nextmanup said: I'm not sure why this play has justified 4 pages of commentary. It really wasn't a very unusual or controversial play. because it seemed for three minutes to have been the dagger in a win sorry you missed it as it happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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