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Ed Oliver first half grade

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1 minute ago, berg1029 said:

Honestly, I do wonder about the tactical deployment of a few of these guys.  For all listed (except for Allen), you could make an argument that the Bills aren't using them in optimal positions or in the correct manner.  Might not be misses per se... might just be not letting players play to their strengths.  Only time will tell I suppose.  

Yeah and coaching 

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Well, he sure 'aint facing off against the 250 lb. OG's from East Appalachian State ... welcome to the NFL, little man!  Gonna take some time and some work with the dietary/training staff, and a year or so of maturing

 

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On 11/4/2019 at 11:02 AM, Yav said:

He's going to need more size if they want to keep him inside, problem with that he could loose quickness. Yesterday it looked as if he was being pushed around easily taken out of the play. 

Agreed. He's very quick but too light in the @$$ and can be easily pushed around by the bigger lineman. It's going to take a while for him to learn how to use their size against them

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On 11/3/2019 at 5:57 PM, Bangarang said:

When we drafted him I figured he’d have more of a presence with making plays in the backfield and getting to the QB. 
 

He’s having a very quiet season.

Remember when we first traded for Biscuit? 

 

He instantly improved the D and was flying all over the place making big, impact plays that caught you attention.

 

If this board was around back then I don't think there would have been threads created trying to convince people that Cornelius was in fact a good player.  It was obvious to all who watched him play.

 

 

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with the 2 dt's we already have he hasnt gotten a chance to get as many reps as he needs yet. if you look at ferrel for oakland he started crappy but got to get a ton of snaps and last 2 games he started coming on. need to let him pay the fiddler and give him more snaps. overall a solid B

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I'd give him a B.  Was a little worried about his size and lack of refinement.  Was hoping he could make up for it with leverage and quickness.  He hasn't been bad but hasn't been the difference maker people were hoping for.

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On 11/3/2019 at 6:12 PM, Joe in Winslow said:

Funny, there was a poster here who called this the day lil' Ed was drafted.

 

Wonder what happened to that guy

 

Isn't it a bit early for anyone to pat themselves on the back? I mean comeon the guy has played 8 games and hasn't even been in a professional off season program yet not to mention he is 21 year old.

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On 11/3/2019 at 5:09 PM, cage said:

There's so much going on during a live game, its really hard to keep track of players.  However, Joe Buscaglia does a weekly grade on each player using the All-22 video from each play of every game.  The results are published each Wednesday after the game.  He also has cumulative ratings over the season.  Through the Eagles game, Oliver is the #8 ranked player from his analysis that includes both offense and defense.  He's the #2 ranked D-lineman after Hughes and is ranked higher than Matt Milano, Tremaine Edmunds and Jordan Poyer.  We can have our flash thoughts on this, but its really true that you need to study the film in its totality

Sorry but Joe B isn’t my source for grading football. A guy who never coached or scouted football for a living grading players is like my high school biology teacher evaluating the next cancer fighting drug. I appreciate his insights, but he isn’t a golden source to me anyway. 

After a game is over I usually re watch it later and focus on specific different players, with Ed being one of them. He is certainly not passing the eye test of the guy who was going to be a difference maker. I expected more based on the hype. I expect him to wear down even more as the seasons gets longer, which may be the reason for the reduced snap count. 

Edited by Locomark

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I wanna give him a C, which is bad enough for the 7th overall pick and Kyle replacement, but I can’t. 

An alarming D.

Imo, McDermott has been uncharacteristically lenient with him, while giving his standard ‘it’s a difficult transition to the pros’ speel. I’m not to sure Jordan Phillips is ‘all that’ -6 sacks notwithstanding, but he’s clearly outplayed Oliver and Coach had to do it. I’m certainly hoping Big Ed uses the offseason to bulk up and beat up blocking sleds. He came in pretty cocky that he was coasting his last year at Houston, but he’s coasting still. Either the expected Big Jump In Year 2 or we break out the B-word.

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2 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I wanna give him a C, which is bad enough for the 7th overall pick and Kyle replacement, but I can’t. 

An alarming D.

Imo, McDermott has been uncharacteristically lenient with him, while giving his standard ‘it’s a difficult transition to the pros’ speel. I’m not to sure Jordan Phillips is ‘all that’ -6 sacks notwithstanding, but he’s clearly outplayed Oliver and Coach had to do it. I’m certainly hoping Big Ed uses the offseason to bulk up and beat up blocking sleds. He came in pretty cocky that he was coasting his last year at Houston, but he’s coasting still. Either the expected Big Jump In Year 2 or we break out the B-word.

Why wait for him to bulk up? Move him around the line to get the best match-up possible.  Why is this not part of The Process? 

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Haaa, I got a C- in history, the Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor

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2 hours ago, Locomark said:

Sorry but Joe B isn’t my source for grading football. A guy who never coached or scouted football for a living grading players is like my high school biology teacher evaluating the next cancer fighting drug. I appreciate his insights, but he isn’t a golden source to me anyway. 

After a game is over I usually re watch it later and focus on specific different players, with Ed being one of them. He is certainly not passing the eye test of the guy who was going to be a difference maker. I expected more based on the hype. I expect him to wear down even more as the seasons gets longer, which may be the reason for the reduced snap count. 

 

I recognize he's a sports reporter and not a football coach/scout, but someone looking at every player, every snap on all-22 and grading it weekly, is pretty close to the most data we have.  I've read a lot of the comments on this thread (and other like it about other players) and it mostly comes across as guys who watched the game while consuming 4-6 beers spouting off.   I have no idea who among these posters knows what about football, particularly in detail player/position evaluation.  So compared to that, JoeB's analysis seems like it's more valuable.

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25 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Haaa, I got a C- in history, the Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor

😳 Are you tellin’ me it’s a rouze? Like the moon landing and 9/11? 

and all this time..

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I’m not sure how everyone feels so confident in grading a D-lineman. Seems like a hard position to judge as a lay-person and not knowing what they are asking him to do. 

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27 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

I’m not sure how everyone feels so confident in grading a D-lineman. Seems like a hard position to judge as a lay-person and not knowing what they are asking him to do. 

Point taken. 

The average schmuck (me) only knows we don’t generate consistent or even decent pass rush without blitzing and we are prone to big, gashing runs just a little too often. In this pass happy game today, at least 2 LBs HAVE to be able to cover underneath routes if not being forsaken for 6 DBs. We’re solid on Defense but we don’t have at least one dominating player in the front 7 that can turn a game in our favor. That’s what we Are confident in grading, regardless of specific down/distance schemes.

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He has the third highest pass rush win rate of any defensive tackle in the NFL.

John Randle and Warren Sapp -- two Hall of Fame penetrating DTs -- had one and three sacks in their rookie years, respectively. 

Ed Oliver is doing fine. He's not lighting the world on fire, but few rookie DTs do. Aaron Donald is the exception, not the rule.

Oliver is going to be fine. He's ALREADY been fine. Lack of sacks are the only reason people seem to think otherwise and, like I said, rookie DTs rarely pile up sacks.

I give the first half of his rookie season a B to B-, with room for improvement but no worry on my part that he'll be anything other than a very good player.

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1 hour ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

I’m not sure how everyone feels so confident in grading a D-lineman. Seems like a hard position to judge as a lay-person and not knowing what they are asking him to do. 

I know they're not asking him to stay blocked as long as possible. 

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3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I know they're not asking him to stay blocked as long as possible. 

 

Good job he isn't then. 

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14 minutes ago, Logic said:

He has the third highest pass rush win rate of any defensive tackle in the NFL.

John Randle and Warren Sapp -- two Hall of Fame penetrating DTs -- had one and three sacks in their rookie years, respectively. 

Ed Oliver is doing fine. He's not lighting the world on fire, but few rookie DTs do. Aaron Donald is the exception, not the rule.

Oliver is going to be fine. He's ALREADY been fine. Lack of sacks are the only reason people seem to think otherwise and, like I said, rookie DTs rarely pile up sacks.

I give the first half of his rookie season a B to B-, with room for improvement but no worry on my part that he'll be anything other than a very good player.

Fine post. It may be that pass rush/consistent penetration is what he was supposed to bring immediately and he really hasn’t done either. He holds his own and yes, he’s in on a lot of tackles in the 2nd level, but even ‘old Kyle’ could still get to the QB once in a while. 

I don’t question the stats you offer, I question the results.

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32 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Point taken. 

The average schmuck (me) only knows we don’t generate consistent or even decent pass rush without blitzing and we are prone to big, gashing runs just a little too often. In this pass happy game today, at least 2 LBs HAVE to be able to cover underneath routes if not being forsaken for 6 DBs. We’re solid on Defense but we don’t have at least one dominating player in the front 7 that can turn a game in our favor. That’s what we Are confident in grading, regardless of specific down/distance schemes.


I hear you. I think we can all spot a truly A+ difference maker, like an Aaron Donald. And Oliver hasn’t been that. I just don’t know how much of our problems can be attributed to him, what he has been asked to do, and even what he’s been really good/bad with.
 

 I just don’t feel super confident with that particular position to judge anyone. (Case in point is that recent Star article, where apparently the Bills think he has been doing a great job!)

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Just now, Chandler#81 said:

Fine post. It may be that pass rush/consistent penetration is what he was supposed to bring immediately and he really hasn’t done either. He holds his own and yes, he’s in on a lot of tackles in the 2nd level, but even ‘old Kyle’ could stil get to the QB once in a while. 

I don’t question the stats you offer, I question the results.


Fair enough.

A key point to remember with Oliver, I think, is that he DOMINATED lower level competition his entire life. I doubt he had to employ much advanced hand usage or really learn the position very thoroughly. I bet it was just "beat your man" or "hold/split your double team", and he was so talented and superior to the competition that he could do those things without understanding the nuances of the position. He has said as much himself. He seems/seemed surprised and newly cognizant of all the work he needs to put in, the hand usage, scheme knowledge, and technical nuance he needs to learn. But he knows he needs to learn it, he seems EAGER to learn it, and he's in a room with great coaches and veteran players who can teach him.

For the reasons listed above, I'm not worried about him. Similar to Josh Allen as a rookie, he's getting by on sheer physical talent right now. Once he actually learns the game (and has a full offseason in an NFL weight and training program), he'll be a killer.

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8 minutes ago, Logic said:

He has the third highest pass rush win rate of any defensive tackle in the NFL.

John Randle and Warren Sapp -- two Hall of Fame penetrating DTs -- had one and three sacks in their rookie years, respectively. 

Ed Oliver is doing fine. He's not lighting the world on fire, but few rookie DTs do. Aaron Donald is the exception, not the rule.

Oliver is going to be fine. He's ALREADY been fine. Lack of sacks are the only reason people seem to think otherwise and, like I said, rookie DTs rarely pile up sacks.

I give the first half of his rookie season a B to B-, with room for improvement but no worry on my part that he'll be anything other than a very good player.

 

....very fair assessment.......and I agree...BUT....we are in the "TBD House Of Unreasonable Expectations" for ANYBODY drafted in the 1st.....the "he sucks" label is awarded quickly...."Too Small" Ed and Josh come to mind......of course there is little or no difference between the collegiate game versus the NFL, right?......hell I'd stay in school and get TWO Masters and a PhD before wanting to be drafted by OBD and face this "firing squad"...SMH...

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