Will the Stadium Stay in Orchard Park? Hear me out

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  Good thing that we told Henry to take a hike or we would have been stuck with the Lions or whatever they would have been called here.

The Bills first colors were silver and blue. Ralph is from Detroit.  If Detroit doesn't exist, Bills probably don't.

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I sincerely hope youre around to see it. Going to be a really cool paradigm shift.

I have been waiting 20 years for the carp to get into Great Lakes... And I keep the lock gates open extra long at times.  LoL...

 

Gonna be interesting to see autonomous vehicles in winter, with snow removal operations and winter weather operating corrections.

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

The Bills first colors were silver and blue. Ralph is from Detroit.  If Detroit doesn't exist, Bills probably don't.

I have been waiting 20 years for the carp to get into Great Lakes... And I keep the lock gates open extra long at times.  LoL...

 

Gonna be interesting to see autonomous vehicles in winter, with snow removal operations and winter weather operating corrections.

  Does not work that way.  The Ford family would have set up shop here (if Ford Motor Co was established in Buffalo) and most likely established a NFL franchise prior to the AFL.  The AFL most likely would have not wanted to place a franchise in Buffalo with that consideration.  It could have been us suffering since 1957 with decades long futility induced by William Clay Ford.

[bbb]

14 hours ago, Hammered a Lot said:

Heard this the other day and to me it makes sense. There has been talk about the need for a new larger convention center in Buffalo. How about converting the current Buffalo, or what ever it's called now, arena into a convention center. 

 

And, then let's turn the convention center into the Bills new stadium 

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Does not work that way.  The Ford family would have set up shop here (if Ford Motor Co was established in Buffalo) and most likely established a NFL franchise prior to the AFL.  The AFL most likely would have not wanted to place a franchise in Buffalo with that consideration.  It could have been us suffering since 1957 with decades long futility induced by William Clay Ford.

The Buffalo Elites that ran the buggy whip factories told Ford to get lost.  It was only a matter of time before they figured out how to transfer power from The Falls further.

 

BFLo has always been doomed by it's myopic thinking... Then when they realize their mistake, try to duplicate what others do.

 

Why I advocate blazing their own path.  Stay where they are.  Stay against the grain, the window is closing.

[The Dean]

45 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Self driving cars are already happening, you may live long enough to watch it start in earnest. Likely highway use first, times a changin, ? me, I travel mostly by boat nowadays, still rent cars a couple times a year.

 

 

Self driving cars are on the way. Fortunately (maybe) the security issues surrounding them are HUGE and so far not close to being resolved. If this is really the future (I'm not all that thrilled with it, but I get it) then an insane amount of money is going to be needed to insure they cannot be hacked. If that can be accomplished (probably can't be completely eliminated---but to a degree that is livable for our collective conscience) then think of the progress that will be made for cyber security in general.

 

One can dream.

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Self driving cars are on the way. Fortunately (maybe) the security issues surrounding them are HUGE and so far not close to being resolved. If this is really the future (I'm not all that thrilled with it, but I get it) then an insane amount of money is going to be needed to insure they cannot be hacked. If that can be accomplished (probably can't be completely eliminated---but to a degree that is livable for our collective conscience) then think of the progress that will be made for cyber security in general.

 

One can dream.

You are right, cyber security on a consumer level leaves s lot to be desired, from smartphones on up, it has been an after thought by and large.

[Sundancer]

10 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Self driving cars are on the way. Fortunately (maybe) the security issues surrounding them are HUGE and so far not close to being resolved. If this is really the future (I'm not all that thrilled with it, but I get it) then an insane amount of money is going to be needed to insure they cannot be hacked. If that can be accomplished (probably can't be completely eliminated---but to a degree that is livable for our collective conscience) then think of the progress that will be made for cyber security in general.

 

One can dream.

 

Once they are fully automated, you won't own a car. All your trips will just be an Uber. It can't happen soon enough. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Sundancer

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Again not Arguing the aspect when the owners don’t pay for the stadium,   I know and have read likely the same information you have, and I agree with it pertaining to economic stimulus of tax payer funded stadiums. I guess in the long run cities just let teams walk, which is what might happen in Buffalo at some point if the local area does not foot part of the tab, maybe the Pegulas will be different and force change, but I doubt the NFL will allow it, and force them to sell the team so it can be relocated? It’s a tuff thing for a community to deal with, especially when they are paying a mortgage on an unused stadium. 

 

That's not possible. 

 

11 hours ago, Mr Info said:

For stadiums to be built in the next 3-5 years, the changes with autonomous vehicles might be considered. The need for significant parking lots/spaces could become a thing of the past. Younger people may choose to not own a car that remains unused 90% of the time. No car payments, no insurance, etc. Here is an article discussing this from a DC perspective but there are others similar to this. Just something else that might be deliberated when building a stadium.

https://ggwash.org/view/40474/self-driving-cars-could-change-a-lot-about-tailgating

 

 

11 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

YES!

 

Good to see someone with their finger on the pulse of the future.

 

My kid (and most born within the last few years) will probably never even have a Drivers License, let alone own a car. They'll have an app with a service they subscribe to. And for $300/month they'll get X amount of miles/month in self-driving cars that they can quickly and easily beckon from their phone.

 

This change will also have a huge affect on "traffic", or the lack there of. Since there will be much less (maybe zero) driver inefficiency and accidents. Light turns green, the entire line of cars move at once.

 

11 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

That technology is on the cusp of happening, I am 60 years old, and have owned one new car, got my license when I was 34 years old, I just did not need a car, mass transit and bicycles took care of 90% of my travel needs, it took many years after I got my license before I bought a car. Rented when I needed one. People like me were the early adapters, ?

 

11 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

And even at 51, you'll see it soon enough. We're less than 10 years away from the majority of vehicles on the road being self-driving, app-owned cars.

 

11 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's a shift from "owning" a vehicle and paying for a hunk of metal that depreciates the second you leave the lot, plus paying insurance, and upkeep, and fuel... to having a subscription for full-time access to a fleet of self-driving vehicles.

 

Just commuting today? Well, the car will be outside your house at 7:30am, per the recurring schedule you setup in your app, to speed you to the office, while you kick back and rest or get work done. BTW, the commute will be about half of what it is now since user error is removed from the equation.

 

Need to pick up groceries? Then select the larger vehicle from the drop-down menu with more room for cargo.

 

Whole family going somewhere? Select the SUV-sized vehicle with extra seating.

 

All included in your plan.

 

Doesnt matter where you live, you still have full-time access to vehicles.

 

 

 

No major auto manufacturer is, today, ready to produce a fully automated car (level 5).  So 3-5 or even 10 years horizon for these things to be widely used is simply not going to happen.

 

If the business model suggested above (only autonomous ride "app" companies would be buying these cars) is accurate, I don't see how any company could afford to purchase such massive numbers of these cars (at what likely will be far more expensive than current models) to make this scenario materialize.  And unless such numbers are purchased, car companies will stop all production, obviously.

 

Barring that unlikely scenario, there would have to be a significant number of individuals who would have to but these cars to make it profitable for the makers.  Why would anyone want one of these cars? Why pay far more for an autonomous Hyundai, for example, when you can own one for far less (or a late model used one for far less) and drive it wherever you want, when you want?  Why pay so much money for a car that you go into and you just sit in the back as it putters down the highway at 55 MPH or crawls its way through the suburbs at 30?  Unless the federal government outlaws private car ownership (or many large states ban it), I don't see how this overtakes the current way people in this country ride in a car.

 

You want a car to pick you up?  There are, in most major cities, innumerable car service companies waiting for your business right now.  In smaller cities, Uber and Lyft are likely there. 

[Don Otreply]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's not possible. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No major auto manufacturer is, today, ready to produce a fully automated car (level 5).  So 3-5 or even 10 years horizon for these things to be widely used is simply not going to happen.

 

If the business model suggested above (only autonomous ride "app" companies would be buying these cars) is accurate, I don't see how any company could afford to purchase such massive numbers of these cars (at what likely will be far more expensive than current models) to make this scenario materialize.  And unless such numbers are purchased, car companies will stop all production, obviously.

 

Barring that unlikely scenario, there would have to be a significant number of individuals who would have to but these cars to make it profitable for the makers.  Why would anyone want one of these cars? Why pay far more for an autonomous Hyundai, for example, when you can own one for far less (or a late model used one for far less) and drive it wherever you want, when you want?  Why pay so much money for a car that you go into and you just sit in the back as it putters down the highway at 55 MPH or crawls its way through the suburbs at 30?  Unless the federal government outlaws private car ownership (or many large states ban it), I don't see how this overtakes the current way people in this country ride in a car.

 

You want a car to pick you up?  There are, in most major cities, innumerable car service companies waiting for your business right now.  In smaller cities, Uber and Lyft are likely there. 

Not possible? And you know this how? Do you have access to owner agreement contract language? 

[DrDawkinstein]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's not possible. 

 

No major auto manufacturer is, today, ready to produce a fully automated car (level 5).  So 3-5 or even 10 years horizon for these things to be widely used is simply not going to happen.

 

If the business model suggested above (only autonomous ride "app" companies would be buying these cars) is accurate, I don't see how any company could afford to purchase such massive numbers of these cars (at what likely will be far more expensive than current models) to make this scenario materialize.  And unless such numbers are purchased, car companies will stop all production, obviously.

 

Barring that unlikely scenario, there would have to be a significant number of individuals who would have to but these cars to make it profitable for the makers.  Why would anyone want one of these cars? Why pay far more for an autonomous Hyundai, for example, when you can own one for far less (or a late model used one for far less) and drive it wherever you want, when you want?  Why pay so much money for a car that you go into and you just sit in the back as it putters down the highway at 55 MPH or crawls its way through the suburbs at 30?  Unless the federal government outlaws private car ownership (or many large states ban it), I don't see how this overtakes the current way people in this country ride in a car.

 

You want a car to pick you up?  There are, in most major cities, innumerable car service companies waiting for your business right now.  In smaller cities, Uber and Lyft are likely there. 

 

It has already started. The folks at these companies have already thought of all your issues and are working with them in mind.

 

Uber already ordered 24,000 self-driving cars from Volvo, and that was in 2017. They will keep adding to that fleet year over year, and ramp up as the tech evolves. The fleets have already started being acquired.

 

The US Postal Service is already using self-driving trucks for long-haul routes.

 

UPS has already been using self-driving trucks under the radar, with no formal announcement.

 

All of this will provide upfront data collection that will only help improve and advance the technology. And as history shows, once something like this starts, it only progresses at an exponential rate. The next step will stand on the these shoulders and go farther and farther. 10 years is an incredibly long time in tech.

 

This IS where the future is going, whether anyone here likes it or believes it.

[RochesterRob]

12 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's a shift from "owning" a vehicle and paying for a hunk of metal that depreciates the second you leave the lot, plus paying insurance, and upkeep, and fuel... to having a subscription for full-time access to a fleet of self-driving vehicles.

 

Just commuting today? Well, the car will be outside your house at 7:30am, per the recurring schedule you setup in your app, to speed you to the office, while you kick back and rest or get work done. BTW, the commute will be about half of what it is now since user error is removed from the equation.

 

Need to pick up groceries? Then select the larger vehicle from the drop-down menu with more room for cargo.

 

Whole family going somewhere? Select the SUV-sized vehicle with extra seating.

 

All included in your plan.

 

Doesnt matter where you live, you still have full-time access to vehicles.

 

  I don't see commute time changing much due to user error no longer in the equation.  What human error could happen in terms of route running down 98 from Batavia to Arcade?  Further, efficiency will be challenged if the user elects to make random stops along the route.  We all have impulses including stopping for coffee and a donut or a run to the restroom because we can't hold it until we reach our destination.  Will the automated vehicle allow for this as by your premise that vehicle has many tightly timed tasks scheduled for the day?  

[Gordio]

20 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

If the Bills are vying for a playoff berth, I'll bet the stadium is mostly full.

 

BTW, were you at the 51-3 blowout of the Raiders in horrendous weather? I was. The stadium was PACKED!

 

That wasn't horrendous weather, at least in Buffalo standards.  It was 30 degrees, little wind & light snow.  It was actually a pretty good day to watch a football game.

[PromoTheRobot]

7 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

That wasn't horrendous weather, at least in Buffalo standards.  It was 30 degrees, little wind & light snow.  It was actually a pretty good day to watch a football game.

 

He's confusing the other Raiders playoff game when it was -3. The 51-3 game was relatively nice. 39 degrees.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199101200buf.htm

Edited October 17, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[PromoTheRobot]

Here's the 1994 Raiders playoff game.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199101200buf.htm

 

Official game time temperature of 0. Note the attendance: 62K. Impressive for the conditions but hardly a sellout. So much for the theory of Buffalo fans loving the elements.

Edited October 17, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[Gordio]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

He's confusing the other Raiders playoff game when it was -3. The 51-3 game was relatively nice. 39 degrees.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199101200buf.htm

 

 

I was talking about the AFC championship game.  I was at that game & it wasn't bad at all.

 

That other playoff game against the Raiders was the divisional game I believe, & yes that weather was brutal.  I remember thinking thank god I didn't go to this game.  

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Here's the 1994 Raiders playoff game.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199101200buf.htm

 

Official game time temperature of 0. Note the attendance: 62K. Impressive for the conditions but hardly a sellout. So much for the theory of Buffalo fans loving the elements.

 

 

it actually was a sellout though because I watched it on TV.  Lot of no shows that game.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Not possible? And you know this how? Do you have access to owner agreement contract language? 

The bylaws allow for other owners to vote on where and whether a team that wants to relocate, can.

 

It doesn't allow for the forced moving of a franchise.

 

24 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It has already started. The folks at these companies have already thought of all your issues and are working with them in mind.

 

Uber already ordered 24,000 self-driving cars from Volvo, and that was in 2017. They will keep adding to that fleet year over year, and ramp up as the tech evolves. The fleets have already started being acquired.

 

The US Postal Service is already using self-driving trucks for long-haul routes.

 

UPS has already been using self-driving trucks under the radar, with no formal announcement.

 

All of this will provide upfront data collection that will only help improve and advance the technology. And as history shows, once something like this starts, it only progresses at an exponential rate. The next step will stand on the these shoulders and go farther and farther. 10 years is an incredibly long time in tech.

 

This IS where the future is going, whether anyone here likes it or believes it.

 

That makes no sense.  It is a consumer product.  If consumers don't "like it" it can't be inevitable.

 

Also, sure, straight line highway trucking for a thousand or more miles on a highway in the desert may be the only practical large application of this technology.  But we are discussing moving people around in an urban environment.

 

As for Uber and those Volvos:

 

"details of internal analyses and reports codenamed Project Rubicon that Uber carried out during 2016. A presentation in January that year projected that driverless cars could become profitable for Uber in 2018, while a May report said Uber might have 13,000 self-driving taxis by 2019. Just four months later, that estimate had jumped to 75,000 vehicles.

The current head of Uber’s self-driving technologies, Eric Meyhofer, testified that Uber’s original estimates of having tens of thousands of AVs in a dozen cities by 2022 were “highly speculative” “assumptions and estimates.” Although Meyhofer declined to provide any other numbers, he did say, “They probably ran a lot of scenarios beyond 13 cities. Maybe they assumed two in another scenario, or one, or three hundred. It’s a set of knobs you turn to try to understand parameters that you need to try to meet.”

 

They were burning through 20 million cash per month on this.  And this is a company that lost almost a billion last year and has never turned a profit.

 

Americans love their cars and driving them.   Even if by tomorrow, fully tested and safe level 5 autonomous cars were available for hire everywhere, who with a car, would use them?  Millions of cars are sold every year and the vast majority of them will last more than 10 years.  Are people going to give up their cars to pay for every ride they take every day?  No they are not.  And for people who live in large urban areas where owning and driving a car is impractical, there are already many options for them (taxi, Uber with regular car/driver, car service for hire, subway, bus....).

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

No major auto manufacturer is, today, ready to produce a fully automated car (level 5).  So 3-5 or even 10 years horizon for these things to be widely used is simply not going to happen.

 

If the business model suggested above (only autonomous ride "app" companies would be buying these cars) is accurate, I don't see how any company could afford to purchase such massive numbers of these cars (at what likely will be far more expensive than current models) to make this scenario materialize.  And unless such numbers are purchased, car companies will stop all production, obviously.

 

Barring that unlikely scenario, there would have to be a significant number of individuals who would have to but these cars to make it profitable for the makers.  Why would anyone want one of these cars? Why pay far more for an autonomous Hyundai, for example, when you can own one for far less (or a late model used one for far less) and drive it wherever you want, when you want?  Why pay so much money for a car that you go into and you just sit in the back as it putters down the highway at 55 MPH or crawls its way through the suburbs at 30?  Unless the federal government outlaws private car ownership (or many large states ban it), I don't see how this overtakes the current way people in this country ride in a car.

 

You want a car to pick you up?  There are, in most major cities, innumerable car service companies waiting for your business right now.  In smaller cities, Uber and Lyft are likely there. 

 

Still hanging on to your CDs and cassettes too? 

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Americans love their cars and driving them.   Even if by tomorrow, fully tested and safe level 5 autonomous cars were available for hire everywhere, who with a car, would use them?  Millions of cars are sold every year and the vast majority of them will last more than 10 years.  Are people going to give up their cars to pay for every ride they take every day?  No they are not.  And for people who live in large urban areas where owning and driving a car is impractical, there are already many options for them (taxi, Uber with regular car/driver, car service for hire, subway, bus....).

 

You're stuck in yesterday and today's thinking, not tomorrow's. Owning and driving a car is impractical in every way compared to autonomous vehicle transportation, except that "people just want to drive themselves." And those people will be priced out by the cost of their insurance eventually. 

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

Still hanging on to your CDs and cassettes too? 

 

You're stuck in yesterday and today's thinking, not tomorrow's. Owning and driving a car is impractical in every way compared to autonomous vehicle transportation, except that "people just want to drive themselves." And those people will be priced out by the cost of their insurance eventually. 

 

Actually that IS the current thinking of those involved in this technology's development.  I quoted it for you and everything. 

 

There is little that is more practical than simply getting in your car whenever you want to...and driving wherever you need to or want to. Let's make this simple.  Let's use my example of this being available right now, in your town.  If no one has a car and everyone has to be at work by 8-9 am, how many tens of thousands of cars would even a small city like metro Buffalo need available every morning?  Far more than ever would exist---but there would have to be that many at minimum for that demand.  And many people drive only twice a day--to and from work.  So that means, in any community, this massive number of cars would be sitting (where exactly?) idle, with then minority of them making trips throughout the day.  How would any company ever hope to make money with this model.

 

Lets's say you were a city planner, and you wanted to come up with a public transportation system for the future of your city.  And one of your planning committee members says: "hey, I know!  Let's replace all cars with.....other cars--only there's no driver in them!".  See?

 

I'm not saying there will not be fully automated cars tooling around some cities some day.  But we specifically are talking (here) about in the next 3- or even 10 years.  There is no support for the conclusion that widespread use of these vehicles will arrive by that time.  There just isn't.  Saying "hey man, it's the FUTURE" isn't persuasive. 

 

No CDs or cassettes--I listen to satellite radio.  In my car.  While I drive it.

[Seasons1992]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........how 'bout that stadium in Orchard Park? Remember that thread?

[The Dean]

1 hour ago, Gordio said:

 

 

I was talking about the AFC championship game.  I was at that game & it wasn't bad at all.

 

That other playoff game against the Raiders was the divisional game I believe, & yes that weather was brutal.  I remember thinking thank god I didn't go to this game.  

 

 

it actually was a sellout though because I watched it on TV.  Lot of no shows that game.  

 

 

I did get those games mixed up, as I was at both. Still on that second Raider game (on TV) there were over 60,000. Pretty impressive for the weather. The fans that show up to those games are the fans that should get the most support from the club, IMO.