Progression from Good to Elite Defense

[Jobot]

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

[bigK14094]

15 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Not to off track this but this is really why I would like to see the bills taking a shot to complete the offense....

 

This defense is championship caliber right now....the offense is a work in progress

 

If made available improve the offense right now

 I was surprised this week when the Bills O was ranked 4th in the AFC........yet I agree the O is a work in progress.  (see Buff News)

[vorpma]

12 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

That’s fair though I do question how much autonomy he really has. Are we sure McD gave him play calling duties back after he took them away last year? 

Truly an assumption (remember what happens when you assume), this is the NFL; if Frazier is not capable of running the defense he would be gone. The HC position cannot be duel hatted! This is hos defense pure and simple!

[Buffalo Junction]

20 minutes ago, vorpma said:

Truly an assumption (remember what happens when you assume), this is the NFL; if Frazier is not capable of running the defense he would be gone. The HC position cannot be duel hatted! This is hos defense pure and simple!

McD is likely heavily involved in the defense. Frazier and McD have known each other for twenty years. They were both position coaches under Jim Johnson in Philly at the turn of the century. The defense we’re looking at today is a combination of that influence (A gap pressure and line stunts) coupled with the cover 3 McD perfected and the cover 2 that Frazier always ran. They managed to mesh the schemes seamlessly which doesn’t happen without exceptional communication. 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

to my earlier point ..  in 4 weeks we'll know if they maintain or excel in those areas.  I am not rushing into calling them elite just yet. 

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

 

Let me just get ahead of "those guys ..." and fast-forward a little:

 

But it was the Jets, Giants and Bengals.

 

Then you remind them about LeVeon Bell, Joe Mixon and Saquan Barkley ... and that we shut Brady down.

 

Brady just had a bad game, Bell hadn't played for 2 years, Barkley was hurt and Mixon is overrated.

 

Then you just do the right thing and walk away.

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Let me just get ahead of "those guys ..." and fast-forward a little:

 

But it was the Jets, Giants and Bengals.

 

Then you remind them about LeVeon Bell, Joe Mixon and Saquan Barkley ... and that we shut Brady down.

 

Brady just had a bad game, Bell hadn't played for 2 years, Barkley was hurt and Mixon is overrated.

 

Then you just do the right thing and walk away.

You can add not being elite because we don't get many sacks to that list...… meanwhile I saw the stillers and chiefs lead the nfl in sacks last year and they were open wounds on defense.

 

E-LE-VEN POINTS A GAME. nuff' said.

 

 

[vorpma]

52 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

McD is likely heavily involved in the defense. Frazier and McD have known each other for twenty years. They were both position coaches under Jim Johnson in Philly at the turn of the century. The defense we’re looking at today is a combination of that influence (A gap pressure and line stunts) coupled with the cover 3 McD perfected and the cover 2 that Frazier always ran. They managed to mesh the schemes seamlessly which doesn’t happen without exceptional communication. 

No argument, good post!

[Jobot]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

 

We can call them elite or whatever you like.  But my list of elite defenses is pretty short so we might just differ in definitions.

 

These teams below from recent memory showed consistent 'elite' play for extended periods of time and would be the only 'elite' defenses I've witnessed.  An elite defense in my mind can basically win a superbowl with their offense kneeling the ball on every down.. I think once Oliver and Edmunds reach their true potential, we'll be able to call that period 'elite'.

 

Bears (current)

Broncos (during SB win season over Carolina)

Seattle (during SB win season over Denver)

Ravens (at height of Ray Lewis/Ed Reed)

[Boatdrinks]

Finishing the season in the top five  or higher in most or all defensive categories would be a pretty good argument for an elite defense. 

[Stank_Nasty]

9 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

We can call them elite or whatever you like.  But my list of elite defenses is pretty short so we might just differ in definitions.

 

These teams below from recent memory showed consistent 'elite' play for extended periods of time and would be the only 'elite' defenses I've witnessed.  An elite defense in my mind can basically win a superbowl with their offense kneeling the ball on every down.. I think once Oliver and Edmunds reach their true potential, we'll be able to call that period 'elite'.

 

Bears (current)

Broncos (during SB win season over Carolina)

Seattle (during SB win season over Denver)

Ravens (at height of Ray Lewis/Ed Reed)

you're right. our definitions are different. for me an elite player or unit for a given season is one that is regarded as top 3 or 4 in the league any given year.

 

i think 3 of the 4 defenses you mentioned there are generational type defenses... which is on a whole other level for me completely. 

[Jobot]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

you're right. our definitions are different. for me an elite player or unit for a given season is one that is regarded as top 3 or 4 in the league any given year.

 

i think 3 of the 4 defenses you mentioned there are generational type defenses... which is on a whole other level for me completely. 

 

Okay I'm on board with that.  But I want the Bills to get to that category, and I think they can based on the delta that their young studs still possess to improve!

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

 

Which is my point (to an extent).  

 

4 teams with a collective 5 total wins.  one game against the worst (or second  worst) offense in the NFL this season.

 

They are VERY good.     When I jumped on the "elite" bandwagon last season the Bills got tromped and stomped by over 30 points. 

 

Elite Defenses don't allow 3  + 30 point games  by their opponent.

 

Prove the first 4 weeks are not a mirage by duplicating it again in the next 4 opponents.   I may be swayed to call them elite then.  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, Jobot said:

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

Darnold had like 35 completions and 170 yards. Like 3 yards an attempt, that's elite

 

Eli manning and Dalton were both lost for 85% of the game..  the Bengals had 1-2 good drives all game

 

There aren't 5 defenses better than ours in the league

[BillsPride12]

We are one stud pass rusher away from being an Elite defense but boy we are getting close!

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Which is my point (to an extent).  

 

4 teams with a collective 5 total wins.  one game against the worst (or second  worst) offense in the NFL this season.

 

They are VERY good.     When I jumped on the "elite" bandwagon last season the Bills got tromped and stomped by over 30 points. 

 

Elite Defenses don't allow 3  + 30 point games  by their opponent.

 

Prove the first 4 weeks are not a mirage by duplicating it again in the next 4 opponents.   I may be swayed to call them elite then.  

 

 

 

You're right, elite defenses don't allow 3 30+ point games. Except Chicago last year. And the Jaguars each of the last three years.

 

Actually, some elite defenses do. First because points do not isolate defenses, as they can be scored and hugely effected by offenses and STs. Scoring is a team stat. It's probably 70% defense, but plenty of the other facets leak through and affect points. Yards is the stat that isolates defensive performance far better. And second because even elite defenses can and generally do have a bad game or two.

 

Elite defenses are elite. But it isn't easy to put it into one sentence so easily. There's always an exception or many.

[Doc Brown]

On 10/2/2019 at 5:46 PM, Coach Tuesday said:

Yes, but they also have been investing their high picks on that side of the ball, at the expense of other opportunities (rhymes with LaPomes).

 

And they are going to need an elite passrusher to get to elite status.  Clooney would’ve been a real difference-maker here.

Seems a little over the hill to me.

 

[Aireskoi]

On 10/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, Utah John said:

Most of the players on D are going to be playing for quite a while.  Lorax will probably not and he's pretty darned important, but the Bills are trying to develop replacements.

 

The one I'm worried about losing isn't a player, it's Frazier.  D Coordinators as good as him get HC job offers.

 

The defense seems to be missing a couple pieces to make it legendary.  There needs to be another pass rusher or two that can change the game and require double teams.  Trent Murphy could be upgraded, maybe Johnson will be the guy but it may take another piece on the line.

 

I would like to see the next high draft pick they use on defense address Lorenzo's position.  He's my favorite player, but if he was replaced with someone (next year) who could really be a force as a pass rusher they could be better.  He is so smart and versatile I hope his replacement gets a year or two with him before he's gone.

 

I don't know if any team wants Frazier as a HC, I would be surprised.  I'm sure they would take him as a DC though, especially after working with McD.  I think  the trend is young offensive HC rather than old DC's.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

You're right, elite defenses don't allow 3 30+ point games. Except Chicago last year. And the Jaguars each of the last three years.

 

Last seasons the Bills run defense rankings by total yards was in the high 20’s IIRC.

 

THIS season is 4 weeks old.  

 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Last seasons the Bills run defense rankings by total yards was in the high 20’s IIRC.

 

THIS season is 4 weeks old.  

 

 

Last year’s run defense was 16th in yds and 9 in ypc. But you’re right. They weren’t elite. But I thought we all kind of knew that. That doesn’t have much to do with this year. Hold out if you like but there is no debating that they have been elite to this point.