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We need Josh Allen to be Tyrod Taylor for 3 quarters


Strethor

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9 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

I hate to say it, but you're right.

Tyrod was mediocre, but at least he wasn't turning the ball over left & right

 

 

Off to ignore after this particularly brilliant post. I deal with foolishness all day in my work environment. Don't need it as part of my entertainment.

 

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16 hours ago, Gavin in Va Beach said:

Tyrod was a class individual who provided a steady hand and helped end the playoff drought. For that he will always have my respect and I'll never regret he was a Bill.

 

Josh would not be Josh trying to play like Tyrod, nor should he. I don't mind the occasional INT trying to take a chance, and I'm confident some more experience will teach him when to take those chances and when not to. Tyrod almost never took those chances and severely limited his game because of it. 

 

The problem is these aren't just the occasional INTs trying to take a chance, they're panic, hope & a prayer lobs thrown just in any direction he's facing at the time. Doesn't matter if there are 4 defenders to 1 Bills player, he still chucks it up without any common sense. 

It's not great coverage or bad routes, it's not a WR slipping or end of half Hail Mary's, it's hold the ball for 3+ seconds, decide to run around, get into a bad situation, then throw off the back foot just wherever he can. 

 

Even worse is his deep ball passes lack any kind of precision or power, they're often wobbly, and UNDER thrown where the WR has no chance to come down with the ball. If these were just bad timing mistakes or getting hit from behind while throwing (and not after having held onto the ball for far too long) it'd be a little more forgivable. 

On top of that, there easily could've been even MORE INT"s this season if the DBs didn't drop freebie picks. Fumbles could've costed us more as well, but great heads up plays by our team have mitigated the damage done from those too. 

People keep throwing out the term "hero ball" to try to give an impression he's a gunslinger like Brett Favre. Sadly, that's just not the case. When your wins are mostly based on how much the defense can mitigate the damage you do on offense, then see if you can dig yourself out of the whole YOU made (either by just disappearing for a couple quarters or overcoming your turnovers), you can't even be compared to those types of players, even if you manage to do something right & put together a good drive at the end of the game.
 

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15 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Didn’t Tyrod pass for 60 yards last time he faced the pats ? 

 

The idea of less turnovers is good.    The idea of anything involving the words Tyrod and QB1 together is the worst idea ever 

 

Stop with the facts.

 

 

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Taylor would not have won that game last week. The Bills would have lost 7-0 off a block punt and or he loses a fumble make it 10 or 14-0 Pats win.  Allen took risks but he also led many comeback already this year.. with Taylor you are maybe 2-2 right now, (more likely 1-3) if Allen played the entire game you may well be 4-0. 

 

Allen will be a good NFL QB... only time will tell if he is a true FQB.

 

(now I will duck as I’m sure someone will call me a troll for saying nice things about the Bills QB)

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1 hour ago, eball said:

I don't think the OP is saying Josh needs to "be" Tyrod Taylor...it's a metaphor for playing "don't make dumb mistakes" football during the first half+ of the game. 

 

Your translation amounts to a premise few would dispute.....but as a metaphor, I would say "poorly chosen".

 

TT's play was more than just "don't make dumb mistakes", it was "be so concerned to avoid dumb mistakes, that you avoid playing QB"

 

32 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

The problem is these aren't just the occasional INTs trying to take a chance, they're panic, hope & a prayer lobs thrown just in any direction he's facing at the time. Doesn't matter if there are 4 defenders to 1 Bills player, he still chucks it up without any common sense. 

It's not great coverage or bad routes, it's not a WR slipping or end of half Hail Mary's, it's hold the ball for 3+ seconds, decide to run around, get into a bad situation, then throw off the back foot just wherever he can. 

 

Even worse is his deep ball passes lack any kind of precision or power, they're often wobbly, and UNDER thrown where the WR has no chance to come down with the ball. If these were just bad timing mistakes or getting hit from behind while throwing (and not after having held onto the ball for far too long) it'd be a little more forgivable. 

On top of that, there easily could've been even MORE INT"s this season if the DBs didn't drop freebie picks. Fumbles could've costed us more as well, but great heads up plays by our team have mitigated the damage done from those too. 

People keep throwing out the term "hero ball" to try to give an impression he's a gunslinger like Brett Favre. Sadly, that's just not the case. When your wins are mostly based on how much the defense can mitigate the damage you do on offense, then see if you can dig yourself out of the whole YOU made (either by just disappearing for a couple quarters or overcoming your turnovers), you can't even be compared to those types of players, even if you manage to do something right & put together a good drive at the end of the game.

 

I can't agree with your characterization of the totality of Allen's play this season.  Have there been bad throws, Yes.  Has it been "throw prayer lobs in any direction he's facing at the time" no.  People say "hero ball" because he's trying to make a play instead of throwing the ball away to live another down.  That's what he needs to learn to do.  But I don't see "panic hope and prayer lobs".  He's trying to make a play.

 

The wobble and lack power bit is simply a consequence of throwing off the back foot instead of re-setting.

 

There could have been more INTs and fumbles, but there could also have been fewer if Beasley caught the catchable low ball that bounced off his thigh and some OL didn't whiff on their blocks.  That's the problem with playing the "could have been" game in any sport.

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I get the thought process but just like in the first three games let his screw up learn then redeem. 

 

If this defense can keep the game close I’m convinced the kid can put together a game winning drive at any point. Game seems to slow down for him in crunch time. Homer statement but I belive he might have won that pats game, had he not been knocked out 

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5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Your translation amounts to a premise few would dispute.....but as a metaphor, I would say "poorly chosen".

 

TT's play was more than just "don't make dumb mistakes", it was "be so concerned to avoid dumb mistakes, that you avoid playing QB"

 

 

I can't agree with your characterization of the totality of Allen's play this season.  Have there been bad throws, Yes.  Has it been "throw prayer lobs in any direction he's facing at the time" no.  People say "hero ball" because he's trying to make a play instead of throwing the ball away to live another down.  That's what he needs to learn to do.  But I don't see "panic hope and prayer lobs".  He's trying to make a play.

 

The wobble and lack power bit is simply a consequence of throwing off the back foot instead of re-setting.

 

There could have been more INTs and fumbles, but there could also have been fewer if Beasley caught the catchable low ball that bounced off his thigh and some OL didn't whiff on their blocks.  That's the problem with playing the "could have been" game in any sport.


No, the could have been game has definitely benefited Allen. For every dropped pass, there are FAR more thrown way the hell of target. You don't go an entire half completing only 3 passes on nearly 20 attempts because someone dropped a ball that one time. 

A dropped pass is nowhere near as detrimental as actually turning the ball over, and there have been at least 3 dropped INT's that could've been added to his tally. And speaking of "catchable low balls," there are FAR more passes that have sailed over open WR's, been thrown well behind them, or just not even seen at all... guys that have their man beat downfield, and Allen just can't do the one thing he's supposed to be good at, throwing deep!

And 1/3 of Allen's passing TD's this season have come from a shovel pass 1 foot in front of him, then the runner doing all the work from there. Sure, other QB's have those plays, but other QB's also have many other passing TD's they were actually responsible for to make those plays but a footnote. Allen's more likely to get rushing TD's than passing TD's, and when has that ever been a good sign for a QB? 

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He's making the EXACT same mistakes as last year. Last season, even in our final stretch where we had the EASIEST strength of schedule left in the entire league, all the way through this year where we again have had a cake walk schedule until the Patriots, Allen has shown he's a bottom tier passer in the league. This article following the end last season still describes Allen TODAY - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25518645/nfl-rookie-quarterback-progress-reports-2018-draft-picks-shown-far

"As a passer, though, it's difficult to see any signs of improvement from Allen. His numbers are horrific -- he ranks last among qualifying signal-callers in passer rating (62.8) and QBR on pass attempts (26.8) -- and don't bear any resemblance to the quarterback Allen was supposed to be coming out of college. His deep balls have been scattershot at best; on throws 16 or more yards downfield, his passer rating is 36.2, which is nearly 20 points worse than any other qualifying passer. His Total QBR on those throws is also last in the league."

"...so far, the Bills have witnessed ...
a less impressive version of Taylor. The same frustrated fans who were sick of Taylor failing to hit 200 passing yards in a game have seen Allen average 181.6 passing yards in his eight full starts. He is completing just 52.4 percent of his passes while throwing his average pass 10.5 yards in the air. (Over his three years in Buffalo, Taylor completed 62.6 percent of his passes while throwing them an average of 9.0 yards in the air.) Allen has added an unwanted propensity for interceptions, given that his nine picks are nearly as many as the 10 Taylor threw over his final two seasons in Buffalo combined."

 

"For every throw Allen makes that arrives on time and with velocity, there's another where his footwork gets jumbled and he sails a throw to an open receiver. Allen does a good job of reading defenders' leverage both as a scrambler and in setting up screens, but he has missed on simple checkdowns and dump-offs. Watching Allen play, you never seem to get a sense of whether a ball is going to be delivered to the right spot. Sometimes, I wonder whether Allen knows, too."

 

Can't hit deep balls, turns it over too much, inconsistent, still making the same mistakes. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll get to pretend he's good when we win a few games against some winless teams like the Dolphins x 2, the Redskins, and the Broncos, but against halfway competent teams I'm sure we'll see the same old Allen. And I'm sure people will still ignore the obvious patterns of his performances against those competent teams, and pretend he's a good QB because he managed to rally us to victory, despite the turnovers, behind an elite defensive performance yet again.

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I admit I didn't read the other comments on this. The title alone makes me want to vomit. That is all I can say on this topic. Pining for Tyrod is ridiculous. We have a kid that could throw for 4000 yards and possibly bring us into the modern age of passing for once in 2 decades and you want us to go back to pop warner offense. No thanks.

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3 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

5 Games TT had QBR of under 40.  

 

His overall rating was offset by a run game when the Bills had a safe lead and he’d get QBRs of 120 (give or take 10). 

 

 

 

I would say good point except Josh's QBR for the season is under 40 and you clearly don't understand how QBR works if you are trying to say he got a higher score during a game with a lead.  QBR is win probability weighted by each play.  In other words you are making stuff up. 

 

QBR explained

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On 10/2/2019 at 12:38 PM, Strethor said:

I believe in risk taking and going for the kill, but with Josh it always seems like he tries to do too much and be the hero when we don't need  heroics until the 4th . I've seen some people refer to it as a defective Favre gene, with this defense it is so unnecessary  and it's something that I don't think can be coached out of him. I've dogged Taylor mainly because he couldn't hit the throws when it counted but I have confidence Josh can if we are in that situation or make a clutch run. Settle down Josh! 

 

We have weapons in the run game .

 

I can only repeat "Oh no Josh" so many times per game 

I dont believe he we learn that Favre gene will always be embedded in him - but to some respect if we are going to be winning 9+ games this year he needs to calm down with throwing into double coverage.

 

It's not all on him we are a strong team 

 

So... hold the ball waiting for receivers to get open... get sacked on 10% of drop backs... get holding penalties on another 5% while he runs around...

 

Sure we never turned it over but we also scored like no points and punted a lot.

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On 10/3/2019 at 9:49 AM, eball said:

I don't think the OP is saying Josh needs to "be" Tyrod Taylor...it's a metaphor for playing "don't make dumb mistakes" football during the first half+ of the game.  Josh needs to understand that with a championship caliber defense the Bills don't have to "press" for big plays on offense early in the game.  They can focus on executing the gameplan and taking what the defense gives them.  Josh can freelance and "take the game over" late if they're in need of a comeback.

Thank you for understanding 

On 10/3/2019 at 10:22 AM, BigDingus said:

 

The problem is these aren't just the occasional INTs trying to take a chance, they're panic, hope & a prayer lobs thrown just in any direction he's facing at the time. Doesn't matter if there are 4 defenders to 1 Bills player, he still chucks it up without any common sense. 

It's not great coverage or bad routes, it's not a WR slipping or end of half Hail Mary's, it's hold the ball for 3+ seconds, decide to run around, get into a bad situation, then throw off the back foot just wherever he can. 

 

Even worse is his deep ball passes lack any kind of precision or power, they're often wobbly, and UNDER thrown where the WR has no chance to come down with the ball. If these were just bad timing mistakes or getting hit from behind while throwing (and not after having held onto the ball for far too long) it'd be a little more forgivable. 

On top of that, there easily could've been even MORE INT"s this season if the DBs didn't drop freebie picks. Fumbles could've costed us more as well, but great heads up plays by our team have mitigated the damage done from those too. 

People keep throwing out the term "hero ball" to try to give an impression he's a gunslinger like Brett Favre. Sadly, that's just not the case. When your wins are mostly based on how much the defense can mitigate the damage you do on offense, then see if you can dig yourself out of the whole YOU made (either by just disappearing for a couple quarters or overcoming your turnovers), you can't even be compared to those types of players, even if you manage to do something right & put together a good drive at the end of the game.
 

I noticed that they were panic throws in the Patriots game and thats what triggered this post. It's a bad omen to see this from someone a whole fanbase believes is a franchise QB to continuously do these throws - there are missed picks from the Jets game as well as others like you mentioned. I sense a bad trend coming but still remain hopeful 

 

Thank you for understanding

On 10/3/2019 at 10:13 AM, Captain Hindsight said:

I have no problem with Josh taking chances. You have to push boundaries to win consistently in the league.

 

He needs to protect it better and learn to take care of himself, but he will be fine. I'm not worried 

 

That's a fair stance

On 10/3/2019 at 10:07 AM, BigDingus said:

I hate to say it, but you're right.

Tyrod was mediocre, but at least he wasn't turning the ball over left & right.

Any half decent game manger QB, Tyrod included, would've won the game against the Patriots last week. If we can't beat Brady & Co. at their absolute worst, there's zero chance we beat them at their best. The defense played brilliantly, and aside from a blocked punt, the special teams has been great. Averaging 30+ yards returning the ball is top 3 in the league, and coupled with the defense gave us plenty of opportunities to start in good field position.

Yet time & time again Allen was there to make the same mistakes over & over & over again. Taking dumb sacks that knocked us out of FG range costing us points, turning it over costing us points, and being Nathan Peterman levels of awful in the first half.

Josh has yet to put together a complete 4 quarters of good QB play this season, and has barely managed to beat some of the crappiest teams in the league. The only reason he's even able to help with those comeback wins is due to the defense playing out of their minds to overcompensate for our awful offensive performances and Allen's turnovers.

But yay, he helps dig us out of the whole he created to escape with wins. 3 passing TD's (where 1 was just a glorified  handoff), 6 INT's, 3 fumbles (where thankfully 2 were recovered by our team) and a 38.6 QBR, even worse than last year, does NOT signal a "good" or even average QB by any means.

And the one thing he's supposed to be good at, throwing deep, he's awful at... Worst in the league last year, and bottom of the league this year. Even worse is the amount of times he had open guys with a few steps on their guy and he didn't even see them. At least the ones he either completely wobbles short or launches 5-10 yards past the open man shows he saw them, but just outright being unaware they're even open just hurts even more. His lack of awareness in so many situations is killing us.

It's ok to make mistakes, but making the same ones repeatedly, and in every situation they come up, is most concerning. It shows an inability to learn, and that he goes off pure instinct...instinct that is poorly suited for the NFL combined with his lack of awareness.

I've hoped I was wrong about him since we drafted him, but there has been nothing shown on the field that points to him being any other than exactly what he was in college. Still hoping McDermott & Co. can pull off a miracle & do what nobody else coaching him has been able to do, but considering their ability to gauge QB talent, it doesn't seem likely unless they bring in someone from the outside to turn things around.

Articulated very well 

 

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On 10/2/2019 at 1:19 PM, BuffaloMatt said:

I think he just missed short on one of the ints. He makes that throw and he's praised. two out of three were flat out bad decisions. 

Yes because he was fading back towards his own goalline. If he stood in there and threw it while stepping into it that would have been a wide open TD

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I think what you're seeing with Allen is opposing teams have kind of figured out his strengths and weaknesses well at least Belichick has. But he was kind of figuring out the scheme towards the 3rd quarter and calmed down as well. From the angles I saw he could of had a few big plays with just hitting the slant routes but he kept looking deep every play then attempts a scramble. Which usually ended poorly. Allen simply has to adjust now and take what the defense gives him.  He seemed to show that late in the game and of course the injury happened.

 

Also just want to say Zay pissed me off quite few times. He doesn't attempt to high point the ball and gives up on the play or doesn't fight for the pass at all. Like help your young QB out.

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On 10/3/2019 at 8:25 PM, Maine-iac said:

I would say good point except Josh's QBR for the season is under 40 and you clearly don't understand how QBR works if you are trying to say he got a higher score during a game with a lead.  QBR is win probability weighted by each play.  In other words you are making stuff up. 

 

QBR explained

Lets just say you may have mistaken my disdain for Tyrod incorrectly. 

 

He sucks wether you cite QBR or QB Rating. 

 

one stat caps at 100 the other near 156.  

Both ignore important criteria that drives the #s lower.  

 

 

My wife and I had a Tyrod moment a few times yelling throw the damn ball (with an added) away!!!!

 

 

What  4th QTR Winning Drive for Josh is this  #5 or 6? 

 

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