Have You Started To Lose Faith in Josh Allen?

[BaaadThingsMan]

I'm with Josh

[Nihilarian]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They should have ran Gore more. But they should not run Yeldon. Ever. That is basically a give up play. 

 

Maybe they shouldn't have cut..... oh forget it. 

 

I generally think Daboll has had a good season. I don't want them babying Allen or hiding him. I want to see what we have for good or for ill. I want them to start putting games on Josh Allen. They traded up to pick him at #7 for crying out loud he has to help us win football games. And generally so far this season I have liked the Daboll playcalling and the Allen play. Yesterday was a bad day for both. 

If I'm not mistaken most draft analysts had Josh Allen graded as having the highest ceiling potential and yet was the rawest in needing more development over any other first round QB in that draft. Mike Mayock stated he would draft him and have him sit for a year like Patrick Mahomes.

 

Instead, this regime in their misguided view went with Nathan Peterman as the starting QB in 2018. When that embarrassment flamed out along with Derek Anderson they threw Allen into the fire behind a very, very bad offensive line. Allen Still hasn't played a full 16 games and is still learning, developing. 15 game starts as of Sunday. 

 

This wasn't a QB that was polished enough to start day one and was supposed to sit, learn, develop. This isn't a Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman or any of the other first round picks. Josh Rosen was graded as more polished and NFL ready...how did that turn out so far?

 

Go back and look at how the Baltimore Ravens developed Joe Flacco to see that they ran the ball more then they passed it his rookie year. With 433 pass attempts vs 592 rush attempts in his first year. That Ravens team went 11-5 that season. Play great defense and run the ball and this will allow the QB to pick and choose his throws.

 

This offensive scheme has Josh running the ball which puts him in injury jeopardy. Yes, he is a big, tough QB like Big Ben...who BTW is gone for the season due to injury. This is the teams franchise QB so why endanger him and ask him to run? Allen does better at improvised runs when needed when the opponent isn't expecting it. 

 

My take is the Bills current OC is showing us that he isn't very good at developing young QBs and is calling plays like he has an experienced veteran QB behind center. Daboll wants to throw the ball like he has Tom Brady... even then ole Tom didn't look so good this past Sunday. Run the damn ball, move the chains! 

[folz]

19 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I was at the game Sunday and there was 1 reason the Bills lost the game.  They lost the game for one reason - Josh Allen.  He was absolutely putrid at QB.  I’m a big fan of Allen but he was THE reason why we lost.  
 

We’re starting to get to the point where you can’t use the whole “lack of experience” excuses for Allen.  For all the progress be seemed to make, we still see him revert back to the traits (holding onto the ball, poor footwork passing up short routes, inaccuracies) from college.  
 

We saw on Sunday that the thing he does well, scrambling, leaves his open for huge cheap shots to the head.  

He also doesn’t seem to be elevating the offense either.  Take a look at how much better NYG has been since Daniel Jones took over last week.  Or how much better Cleveland was behind Baker and not Tyrod.  Or to a MUCH lesser extent Gardiner Minshew in Jacksonville.   Allen has struggled to generate much more than 20 points per game.
 

So have you lost faith in Josh Allen?

 

If you haven’t lost faith, what give you hope that he will eventually start elevating the offense?  

I’m completely on the fence, but trending toward skepticism, unfortunately. 

 

I didn't have time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating other posters. Have I lost faith? Absolutely not. Josh is going to be fine. Stop overreacting.

 

Yes, he needs to learn to throw the ball away and live for another down. And even if its third down, if nothing is there, throw it away. With our defense, it's ok to play the field position game. He needs to stop retreating on his scrambles, he took two sacks that took us out of field goal range doing that and that is where most of his interceptions have happened also, when he has run backwards away from the rush and then heaves up a prayer. He also needs to have better ball security and learn to slide. So, I'm not making excuses for Josh, you are right he needs to improve in a lot of areas. He played a very poor game yesterday. But he is a smart kid and eventually these lessons will start sinking in. I think he was really pressing yesterday because it was the Pats and he wanted the win so bad. (And oh by the way, they're the best defense in the league.) His competitive drive is what will make him great, but it is also the flaw in his game right now. He needs to learn to stay on a more even keel and not try to win the game on each play or possession. Football, especially against the Pats, is a war of attrition. Take what they give you and minimize the mistakes. One big play, more than not, is not going to win the game. You have to be consistent for 60 minutes. And his mistakes to this point, this season, hadn't hurt us overall (because we won the games), until yesterday. So, let's at least give him a chance to learn from this one. Knowing that his miscues were a big reason for the loss and then suffering the concussion, might make those lessons stick a little more strongly.

 

I do, however, think that it is ridiculous to say you can't blame lack of experience for his miscues. Not every QB is Patrick Mahomes, who seems to be good right off the bat. But then not every QB goes to a team with Andy Reid as the head coach, a solid veteran QB to learn behind for a year, and supreme talent around him either. Look what Josh walked into last year. And in the old days, QBs wouldn't even start for three years, because that's how long coaches deemed it took QBs to get fully up to speed (if they were going to). Josh hasn't even played a full season's worth of games. To claim that is just an excuse by Allen apologists is so disingenuous. It is not an excuse, it is the truth.

 

And the comparison to QBs with such a small sample size is such a bad argument. We have all seen new QBs come on the scene, have a few good games, then defenses figure out who they are and they come back to Earth. Minshew was such an unknown, teams may not have known how to prepare for him yet. Jones also, to a lesser extent. Plus you have to take into account who they are playing. If we played the Redskins yesterday and New York played the Patriots, who do you really think would have looked like the better QB? Do you really think Jones would have carved up that Pats D, while Josh would still throw 3 picks against Washington? And what about Baker's first three games this year. He also looked putrid, but to you he's a stud and Josh sucks. Come on man. I'll be very surprised if Jones and Minshew are just upward arrows (like Mahomes has been) the entire season, with no setbacks or bad games. To make sweeping judgements on one QB who has two starts in the league and another that has three starts in the league is the definition of overreaction.

 

It was said that Josh couldn't improve his accuracy/completion percentage. Yet even after yesterday's really bad game, he is still up over 60% passing as compared to 52% last year. Players do learn and grow. There is a reason that there is an idiom that says, "Experience is the best teacher." So, why is it that you think he can't learn from these mistakes. He's a smart kid. If he were just a running QB, as we have seen many times in this league, once defenses learned to pin him in, he would be done. I think that is happening a bit now. Defenses are preventing him from escaping the pocket. He's not getting the big, easy runs like he did last year. So, he needs to progress from that being his game, the hero ball, etc. The thing about Josh though, is that unlike other QBs who were good runners, but not good throwers, Josh has all of the tools to develop into a very good pocket passer: size, arm strength, etc. He just needs to continue making that progression now that defenses are taking away some of his escapability.

 

I am actually stunned with how many people are already ready to give up on the kid. That just screams of the instant gratification world we seem to now live in. Yeah, let's just cut him and start over again next year, he's obviously a bust who will never get better after just 15 games. Crazy talk. I would remind you that not only is experience the best teacher, but patience is a virtue.

 

 

[Success]

BB has made a lot of good & great QB's look REALLY bad over the years.

 

Does anyone remember what he did to Peyton Manning in their 1st 6-7 outings?  He made one of the top 3 of all time look inept.  There were some games where PM couldn't do a thing, and threw multiple picks.

 

Nah - I'm not doubting Josh Allen. Not yet.  He has such competitive fire; he just has to get a handle on his worst instincts.  I have great faith that he will continue to develop & become the QB we all feel like he can be.

 

[njbuff]

I get why Bills fans are pushing the panic button with Allen.

 

It's the "here we go again" syndrome with a young Bills QB, a.k.a., Manuel, Edwards and Losman.

 

Allen did seem to turn the corner in the second half yesterday after a miserable first half, so there is that.

 

The Bills might actually have a strong running game with Gore and the returning Singletary, so can Allen become a game manager for this team before he becomes a franchise QB?

 

That is the big question now and one Daboll needs to find the answer to quickly.

 

It's also the fact that we are living in an instant gratification society and if Allen isn't lighting the world on fire yesterday, he is a bust crowd.

 

The difference between Allen and the other young Bills QB's of the past is that Allen is light years more talented. Will that be enough in the end? Only Allen can answer that.

 

I will remain patient. Will you?

[WideNine]

I will be honest and say that I was pretty frustrated with Allen.

 

But I have to remind myself that only 2 or so games ago I was posting that everyone should expect that he was going to have up and down games, and on Sunday against the Pats very good defense he fell back into his bad habits had a down game and I did not really have the patience that came more easily when we were winning.  

 

Belichick's plan had not deviated too much from last year,  to have Allen feel the rush and force him into the quick decisions and reads he is not quite ready to make and to cause him to hesitate and pull the ball down. That hesitation means that his rush will either get to him or force him to roll right out of the pocket. Once Allen rolls right then his coverage downfield always had help over the top playing center field watching Allen's eyes.

 

Belichick's defenses have confused and rattled and stalled a lot of veteran QBs along the way and there is no shame in counting yourself among them, but I always thought that his defenses could be forced into more predictable fronts if a team continued to hammer the ball at them with the running game.

 

The o-line did not have its best game and I somewhat blame Daboll for not having enough running plays with Josh back there to slow up that pass rush. Part of that is that they were trying to keep Gore's touches reasonable, but if that was the case I think they needed to pull up another RB and I still think that would have been better than only having Yeldon who is mainly a receiving option out of the backfield.

 

Allen's issues have not changed and those are that his presnap reads and ability to read coverages short to deep are not there yet - can anyone really do this well with the way Belichick disguises his defense? This inability has him holding the ball too long waiting for something to develop downfield and there was very little of that going on Sunday. Coverage was tight. The unforgivable thing was Allen's stubborn insistence on throwing it deep off platform into double-coverage or simply not locating the free safety. He absolutely needs to get that through his head (where is the safety???????).

 

Allen has had enough success rolling right and hitting his receivers that break off their routes to come back to him, but those options were largely schemed out of the picture as Bill looks for those tendencies and does what he can to take those away. He threw some away, he needed to take a page out of Brady's book on Sunday and tip his hat to a very good defense and throw a lot more of them away.

 

I think we mainly learn and build off of failure. Last year, the biggest leap in Allen's development came after his dubious launch and injury when he had time to sit, reflect, and dedicate himself a bit more to learning from those around him.  I will be curious how Allen responds to this set back, but I am thinking we will have to wait till after the bye week for that just my hunch, but we will see.

 

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

No, Hes young. He has come along way since last year.

 

He has a bad game against the greatest coach of all time with historic defense this year and some of you guys want to jump ship, pretty sad.

 

How long before Kelly was consistent?? Guess we should have canned him after a season of starts.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

If I'm not mistaken most draft analysts had Josh Allen graded as having the highest ceiling potential and yet was the rawest in needing more development over any other first round QB in that draft. Mike Mayock stated he would draft him and have him sit for a year like Patrick Mahomes.

 

Instead, this regime in their misguided view went with Nathan Peterman as the starting QB in 2018. When that embarrassment flamed out along with Derek Anderson they threw Allen into the fire behind a very, very bad offensive line. Allen Still hasn't played a full 16 games and is still learning, developing. 15 game starts as of Sunday. 

 

This wasn't a QB that was polished enough to start day one and was supposed to sit, learn, develop. This isn't a Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman or any of the other first round picks. Josh Rosen was graded as more polished and NFL ready...how did that turn out so far?

 

Go back and look at how the Baltimore Ravens developed Joe Flacco to see that they ran the ball more then they passed it his rookie year. With 433 pass attempts vs 592 rush attempts in his first year. That Ravens team went 11-5 that season. Play great defense and run the ball and this will allow the QB to pick and choose his throws.

 

This offensive scheme has Josh running the ball which puts him in injury jeopardy. Yes, he is a big, tough QB like Big Ben...who BTW is gone for the season due to injury. This is the teams franchise QB so why endanger him and ask him to run? Allen does better at improvised runs when needed when the opponent isn't expecting it. 

 

My take is the Bills current OC is showing us that he isn't very good at developing young QBs and is calling plays like he has an experienced veteran QB behind center. Daboll wants to throw the ball like he has Tom Brady... even then ole Tom didn't look so good this past Sunday. Run the damn ball, move the chains! 

 

So how long do you want to baby Josh before we really decide what we have? This is 2019. I don't believe in developing young QBs by hiding them. And with Josh in  particular he, more than almost any QB I have ever seen, needs to feel in rhythm. I don't believe he is a guy who you can run 55% of the time and then ask Josh to make the odd big throw.  Look at the drive where he looked best yesterday coming out of the half. 6 straight passes to get from our 25 to the NE 6. That is who Josh is based on what I have seen. He is best when he feels the game is in his hands. He is not Russell Wilson who as a rookie was just asked to manage the game and make the odd critical 3rd down throw. If that is the Quarterback you wanted then Josh Allen isn't for you. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

44 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So how long do you want to baby Josh before we really decide what we have? This is 2019. I don't believe in developing young QBs by hiding them. And with Josh in  particular he, more than almost any QB I have ever seen, needs to feel in rhythm. I don't believe he is a guy who you can run 55% of the time and then ask Josh to make the odd big throw.  Look at the drive where he looked best yesterday coming out of the half. 6 straight passes to get from our 25 to the NE 6. That is who Josh is based on what I have seen. He is best when he feels the game is in his hands. He is not Russell Wilson who as a rookie was just asked to manage the game and make the odd critical 3rd down throw. If that is the Quarterback you wanted then Josh Allen isn't for you. 

 

No one's babying Josh. What most of us are asking for is more than 15 games worth of patience, and a decent oc that understand how to do what you say when the defense takes that away.

[GunnerBill]

35 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

No one's babying Josh. What most of us are asking for is more than 15 games worth of patience, and a decent oc that understand how to do what you say when the defense takes that away.

 

I am not saying anyone is. I don't think Daboll is. I think he is doing a good job. I think @Nihilarian wants to baby Josh. He wants to protect him from any chance of looking bad. I think that is an outdated way to develop a young QB and, in any event, it is not the way Josh excels. Josh is at his best when the ball is in his hand and he has rhythm. He is not best in a run heavy scheme that asks him to just make the odd big throw. That isn't who he is. 

 

Nor am I losing patience. I think Josh has to play every snap for which he is available this year and by the end of the season the Bills have to have an idea what they have. They can't hide Josh. That isn't a viable plan in 2019 and neither is it the way to get the best from this Quarterback. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by GunnerBill

[london_bills]

Continue to develop him but he will be judged in tough games. To judge him in the patriots game is fair.

 

There are posters on here that are both

 

1. patient with him to play all season

2. are also are skeptical as to whether he is a high tier QB when they see games like Sunday.

 

Theres a continuous judgement going on in people's minds, which admittedly is from play to play sometimes. 

 

For me, I need to see a 3TD game. I've seen a 3INT game. 

 

Point being we need to see good games to back up the flashes that we DO see. Need to see ONE good statistical day to show he can be consistent in a game.

 

I'm viewing Allen through the lens of can he take us to the Superbowl.

[london_bills]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not saying anyone is. I don't think Daboll is. I think he is doing a good job. I think @Nihilarian wants to baby Josh. He wants to protect him from any chance of looking bad. I think that is an outdated way to develop a young QB and, in any event, it is not the way Josh excels. Josh is at his best when the ball is in his hand and he has rhythm. He is not best in a run heavy scheme that asks him to just make the odd big throw. That isn't who he is. 

 

Nor am I losing patience. I think Josh has to play every snap for which he is available this year and by the end of the season the Bills have to have an idea what they have. They can't hide Josh. That isn't a viable plan in 2019 and neither is it the way to get the best from this Quarterback. 

Allen might be better in an uptempo offence when there's less time to 'think'.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

30 minutes ago, london_bills said:

Allen might be better in an uptempo offence when there's less time to 'think'.

 

I concur, which makes it MADDENING that Daboll calls it and then abandons it.

 

I wouldn't mind if they went up-tempo for entire games.

 

[ALF]

Better pass protection would help. The NE**  pass coverage was unreal.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ALF

[Gugny]

The 15 start mark is also where the fanbase started calling for EJ's head.  I remember it like it was yesterday.  

 

This is a completely different situation, from ownership on down (thank GOD).  I'm confident the end result will also be different.

[fergie's ire]

I have some concerns....and have seen some regression, but that is to be expected of a young quarterback (see Baker Mayfield's first few games this year) but honestly the Cincinnati game worries more than Sunday's game.  So far this year there has been one and only one quarterback who has led a scoring drive against that Patriots defense.  Yes, they have played some crap quarterbacks...but still.  And Big Ben pre-injury had something left...and if we go back to last year, Goff and that Rams offense did nothing.  So, no, Sunday's game does not worry me much.

[Wayne Cubed]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not saying anyone is. I don't think Daboll is. I think he is doing a good job. I think @Nihilarian wants to baby Josh. He wants to protect him from any chance of looking bad. I think that is an outdated way to develop a young QB and, in any event, it is not the way Josh excels. Josh is at his best when the ball is in his hand and he has rhythm. He is not best in a run heavy scheme that asks him to just make the odd big throw. That isn't who he is. 

 

Nor am I losing patience. I think Josh has to play every snap for which he is available this year and by the end of the season the Bills have to have an idea what they have. They can't hide Josh. That isn't a viable plan in 2019 and neither is it the way to get the best from this Quarterback. 

 

Yea, it's certainly not Daboll, to my eye. He gives Josh plenty of easy throws that either Josh misses (doesn't see) or misses (the throw).  I really like the offense Daboll has made, it lives and dies with Josh, which a modern NFL offense should. Penalties and mistakes have hampered it some but I can't really say I've disliked too much of what I've seen. The only parts which I've seen that have been questionable are from a personnel perspective (going heavy with L. Smith to open the Pats** game, Singletray's use etc.)

[london_bills]

9 minutes ago, fergie's ire said:

I have some concerns....and have seen some regression, but that is to be expected of a young quarterback (see Baker Mayfield's first few games this year) but honestly the Cincinnati game worries more than Sunday's game.  So far this year there has been one and only one quarterback who has led a scoring drive against that Patriots defense.  Yes, they have played some crap quarterbacks...but still.  And Big Ben pre-injury had something left...and if we go back to last year, Goff and that Rams offense did nothing.  So, no, Sunday's game does not worry me much.

Cincinnati game because their defence is bad

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So how long do you want to baby Josh before we really decide what we have? This is 2019. I don't believe in developing young QBs by hiding them. And with Josh in  particular he, more than almost any QB I have ever seen, needs to feel in rhythm. I don't believe he is a guy who you can run 55% of the time and then ask Josh to make the odd big throw.  Look at the drive where he looked best yesterday coming out of the half. 6 straight passes to get from our 25 to the NE 6. That is who Josh is based on what I have seen. He is best when he feels the game is in his hands. He is not Russell Wilson who as a rookie was just asked to manage the game and make the odd critical 3rd down throw. If that is the Quarterback you wanted then Josh Allen isn't for you. 

Well, this moron of an OC asked Allen to throw 41 times against the Patriots last season! Oh, boo hoo we didn't have a running game, boo hoo. BS! Keith Ford had 7 rushes for 33 yards a 4.7 YPC avg. the Bills only attempted 17 rushes that game vs 41 passes. 

 

Building a power run game to work the offense from is not babying the QB! Besides in that very same game that Daboll asked Allen to throw 41 times the Bills D had shut down QB GOAT Tom Brady so the Patriots went to the run game...and won!

 

I never said anything about hiding or babying Allen. What I said was, build the run game and allow him to work off that with short passes to build his confidence and allow him to get into a rhythm. Simply put, don't put the entire offense on the young QB's shoulders or at times he will feel the need to make a big play to win the game like he has done n the past.

 

If you recall the 2018 Buffalo Bills lead the NFL in deep throw last year! Yeah, with that horrifically craptastic worst in the NFL O line. Deeper throws require more time in the pocket which Allen didn't have... so he took it on himself to win most of those games with his arm and legs. This Sunday against the Patriots either the Bills receivers weren't getting open or the line wasn't holding up a lot of the time. Yes, Allen made some bad throws and so did Tom Brady!

 

This current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator has a past record of not being very good. MY ONLY HOPE is that McD wakes up and tells the OC to run it more to protect the ball by running more which will allow his defense to win the game. This will also help Allen develop and not make him feel like he needs to carry the offense.

[entropyrules]

3 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

 

It's also the fact that we are living in an instant gratification society and if Allen isn't lighting the world on fire yesterday, he is a bust crowd.

 

I don't think he's a bust but I do believe he will never be that superstar QB you need to win a Superbowl. Maybe with a "lights out" D he can do it but his inability to see the field limits the number of big plays he'll make when under pressure.