Have You Started To Lose Faith in Josh Allen?

[Buffalo716]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

It looks like my scenario will work itself out anyway. Allen won't play Sunday, my gut tells me. Benching him, sitting him, concussion protocol, all adds up the same. He won't be back til the Miami game.

Idk what the enigma with Barkley is.. he is not that great... He is probably the 15-20th best backup not top 5

 

He is a poor man's Ryan Fitzpatrick

 

He came in on short notice and beat the Jets and became a folk hero to some

 

He has alot of flaws that have already been exposed on tape over his career, and getting gameplanned for will just expose them more

 

He makes good , not great decisions and his arm strength is severely lacking, not to mention his escapability and sense of pressure are below average

 

He has the ability to play well at times but has shown in game time that he usually won't get it done. He has a worse career TD to INT ratio than Josh and he was a pro ready QB out of USC

 

Josh was the greenest QB and has improved immensely already since last season

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

I knew your thread was an anti-Josh thread cloaked in disguise.  

[Big Blitz]

Pointless freaking conversation 14 games into his career.  But this is the internet.  

 

I have not.  

 

If you have, what's plan B right now?  More tanking?  Draft another guy mid round?  Go to the franchise QB store and buy one.

 

My advice is let this season play out.  Save your blood pressure.

 

This fan base has TBS.  Watching the greatest ever destroy the AFC for 18 years has made everyone think "it should be easy!"   

[TigerJ]

No.  He's still young and inexperienced, but he does need to learn from experiences like this.  The clock is ticking toward the time when people will have to wonder whether he is the answer or not.  Still too early to make evaluations on where his ceiling is.

[Phil The Thrill]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

When he needed to, he came through. There’s your answer.  

 

He needs to play better overall.  I say this repeatedly:  the biggest thing for young QBs is to get the game to slow down.  It is slowing down for Allen, we certainly saw that in the first three games.  Yesterday as I’ve said earlier today the moment was too big for him. At this point in his career at least.  When he finally gets he can destroy teams by just taking what’s there and that he doesn’t have to make the home run play every time he’ll be really good.  It’s there, we can see it, but he has to stop making two mistakes:  holding onto the ball too long when the play isn’t there and taking bad sacks and throwing deep into coverage to try and make a big play. 

You have ascertainment bias, it’s pretty clear. You decided a while ago Josh won’t be the guy.  So when you bring up Jones as a rookie and has a good game, it’s how great Jones was.  But when Josh did the same thing against the Vikings last year it’s that it was the WRs and the playcalling.  Anything but him playing well.  Too bad, I thought you were interested in serious give and take.

You are completely off base.  I was not on board with the selection of Allen in the draft.  But there were time when I was encouraged last year.  I felt really good about him going into this season and I love how great of an ambassador he is for the franchise.  
 

But I was also hoping to more progress.  There are times where Josh has looked good but also way too many turnovers and poor decisions.  At some point - these need to stop and they haven’t over the course of 4 games.  
 

Yesterday's performance about as futile as you can get.  

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

You are completely off base.  I was not on board with the selection of Allen in the draft.  But there were time when I was encouraged last year.  I felt really good about him going into this season and I love how great of an ambassador he is for the franchise.  
 

But I was also hoping to more progress.  There are times where Josh has looked good but also way too many turnovers and poor decisions.  At some point - these need to stop and they haven’t over the course of 4 games.  
 

Yesterday's performance about as futile as you can get.  

Yesterday was bad.  No one is arguing that.  But quit making other rookies out to be great when they have a good game and pooh pooh when Allen did.  Young QBs take time to develop, Jones will have bad games too.  So will Minshaw.  Allen got schooled by a master in Belichick.  He needs to learn from it.  No doubt.

[Victory Formation]

Yes, I’m discouraged, but he got us to 3-1 so you don’t bench him. He gives us the best shot to win, Barkley isn’t very good.

[Jrb1979]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Yesterday was bad.  No one is arguing that.  But quit making other rookies out to be great when they have a good game and pooh pooh when Allen did.  Young QBs take time to develop, Jones will have bad games too.  So will Minshaw.  Allen got schooled by a master in Belichick.  He needs to learn from it.  No doubt.

The problem is Allen has had more bad games then good. I get that most of you are excited cause of the comebacks but other then the Giants game he hasn't played that well. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Jrb1979 said:

The problem is Allen has had more bad games then good. I get that most of you are excited cause of the comebacks but other then the Giants game he hasn't played that well. 

Disagree.  He has had some picks to be sure, some his fault and some not.  But he has been solid overall till yesterday and being able to bring your team back from deficits is a good thing to have in your young QB.

 

i’ll say It again: get rid of the dumb late throws downfield trying to make something out of nothing and get rid of fading back too far in the face of the rush (can’t tell how many times I yelled throw the ball yesterday) and the kid will be really good.  He was doing that for the most part the first three games; he didn’t yesterday.  How much that was him not being ready for the big game, how much was it Belichick, hard to say.

[london_bills]

23 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

It looks like my scenario will work itself out anyway. Allen won't play Sunday, my gut tells me. Benching him, sitting him, concussion protocol, all adds up the same. He won't be back til the Miami game.

It gives them the 'perfect storm' scenario to rest him, play Barkley, and let him think about the interceptions after being told again about looking after the football. Need to check back to see if this is the kind of scenario you mention!

 

Allen is confident but it does concern me that it could go either way with his confidence after being told 'dont do anything stupid'. A bit like it's done with his deep ball at the moment. 

 

With alot of Allen opinions about how good he's been I think there is an element of seeing what you want to see. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by london_bills

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

How do you explain the success of a player like Daniel Jones?  In just a few starts, he is elevating the entire offense.

 

How much time should we give Allen?  5 years?  6 years?

 

If he’s any good we should see progress soon.  And “progress” was not what we saw yesterday 

 

If you look at 2018, and this roster and dont think Allen didn't also elevate this offense, then you just weren't paying attention.  Allen was the whole team last year on offense, and as a raw rookie with one of the worst OL's in football and the worst WR core in football.  

 

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

 

Lamar had 2 hot weeks against terrible defenses, now has lost 2 in a row and come back to earth a bit.  I still like Lamar, but lets not crown him yet because he beat the worst team in the NFL week 1 and then beat up on a AZ defense missing its best players.  I am high on Baker, but he's regressed quite a bit this year compared to last year despite having probably the best offensive weapons group in the NFL, top 3 at worst.  

 

38 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

you do realize that the protection issues as you put it, are Allen’s fault the majority of the time.  He either doesn’t read the defense or holds onto the ball too long. 

 

Actually, this is not very accurate.  Fans get this wrong so much, especially around here.  There were MANY times yesterday where Allen has NO place to go with the ball or the pass protection simply broke down.  Allen cant get the ball out quickly if his receivers are not winning their INITIAL routes.  All throughout the game the commentators and even at halftime they kept talking about how the Bills receivers could not get open.  Many times Allen had plenty of time and there was literally no one open, and they would even show the replay of everyone blanketed.  

 

This leads to Allens biggest flaw, and that is he tries to do too much and force things when the offense is stalling.  He just needs to understand how good the defense we have is and know that he doesn't have to force things in a tight game. 

 

24 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Sure, they are 2-0 with him as QB including a convincing win versus a bad Washington team.  He’s providing a spark and making the overall offense better.  This is what you want to see from a new QB.  Not 3 INT’s

 

And before yesterday, Allen was 3-0 and might be 4-0 if he doesn't get knocked out yesterday.  Going back to last year, Allen is 6-4 since returning from injury...

 

Losses are:

Jets - Special teams blunder cost us the win, not Josh.

Dolphins - Zay Jones and Clay both dropped passes on the final drive that lost us that game.

Patriots (2018) - Bad team loss, Allen was not very good.

Patriots (2019) - DNF (Allen didnt finish the game, but it was winnable when he was knocked out).  Even with the offensive woes, we lost this game on ST's - Blocked Punt and missed FG.  Allen gets knocked out, but if not, he had us driving again in the 2nd half where he has been at his best and had a real shot to win this game.  

 

CONCLUSION:  Allen has plenty to work on, he still only has 16 games under his belt though.  But he has shown quite a bit of progress this year.  He faced off against the GREATEST defensive mind in the history of football (by a wide margin) and struggled early but also put up the only TD NE has allowed all year in the 2nd half and was driving again before getting hurt.  Its not time to panic, and also not fair to compare him to Daniel Jones playing the woeful Bucs and Redskins D.  Josh Allen looked dominant in week 17 last year against a bad Dolphins team too and had 5 total TDs.  

[Dr.Sack]

In all fairness Allen is 23. When Brady was 23 he was a rookie riding the pine learning from Drew Bledsoe. Allen has a lot of improvements to make but I wouldn’t give up on him over one poor performance. If he cuts down on the bonehead TOs he may even turn into a decent QB. 

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

what are you talking about?  You can’t start a rookie/2nd year QB and then put him back on the bench after giving him the ball.  It’s a confidence killer 

 

I hear and read this often.  Do these guys really have such frail egos that is they get benched in one game their confidence is ruined for their career?

 

I always hear jocks talking about overcoming adversity and improving after being told by someone they couldn't do it.  Are QBs different? 

[Jrb1979]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Disagree.  He has had some picks to be sure, some his fault and some not.  But he has been solid overall till yesterday and being able to bring your team back from deficits is a good thing to have in your young QB.

 

i’ll say It again: get rid of the dumb late throws downfield trying to make something out of nothing and get rid of fading back too far in the face of the rush (can’t tell how many times I yelled throw the ball yesterday) and the kid will be really good.  He was doing that for the most part the first three games; he didn’t yesterday.  How much that was him not being ready for the big game, how much was it Belichick, hard to say.

He has been playing hero ball ever since he got here. I don't think it's going away any time soon. IMO I don't that will ever go away. He is going to be an inconsistent QB his whole career. 

[Bangarang]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Don't think of Barkley as inferior. He's a change up. How would you feel if Allen plays and keeps taking 3rd down sacks and throwing picks because you don't want to sit him for one game?  Don't sweat it because it's happening anyway. Barkley will start Sunday.

He’s a significantly worse QB than Allen. You can call him what you want but that’s the reality of the situation. 
 

I doubt sitting him for one game is going to magically make him see the field very differently. If he keeps turning the ball over then he won’t last in this league and we’ll go back to looking for his replacement. It’s as simple as that.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Bangarang

[london_bills]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Disagree.  He has had some picks to be sure, some his fault and some not.  But he has been solid overall till yesterday and being able to bring your team back from deficits is a good thing to have in your young QB.

 

i’ll say It again: get rid of the dumb late throws downfield trying to make something out of nothing and get rid of fading back too far in the face of the rush (can’t tell how many times I yelled throw the ball yesterday) and the kid will be really good.  He was doing that for the most part the first three games; he didn’t yesterday.  How much that was him not being ready for the big game, how much was it Belichick, hard to say.

Bringing your team back from deficits is huge. He has led strong drives and started great against the jests I thought, looked like brady. I thought he was very poor to start against the patriots and at some other times. When he is very poor like that, the throw to a running back doesn't even get there.

 

If it's a mental thing I wonder if it could be something that never really goes away.

24 minutes ago, dous21 said:

My big fear is Allen never improving the braindead mistakes and never learning how to read a defense and we are stuck with him like Tampa with Winston hoping every year we can improve 

 

An even bigger fear is Mcdermott and this staff failing to reach the playoffs in the next 2 years with a SB caliber defense. If that happens we need to hit the restart button and start thinking about bring in an offensive genius HC 

 

Absolutely. That's why it's a balance between 'developing' Allen and deciding if he is the one. Of course could do both and draft another quarterback but that would draw a LOAD of attention.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Some OC's tend to call plays in whatever they want without understanding the QB's they have under them aren't elite, fully developed players. Bills WR John Brown recently stated that this current offensive scheme is the most complex, complicated he has been involved in. 

 

I have no doubt that Josh Allen has the smarts to understand the entire offensive scheme and make it work. What the problem is he was going against the most complex defense in the league that confuses even the best QB's out there. Josh was seeing multiple coverage's, looks and players switching positions which were causing him problems.  Plus the Patriots were playing a tight man to man which was taking away that short stuff to Beasley, Brown. 

 

If you go back to watch the film to look at the NE defense, the Patriots ran against the Steeler's in week one vs what they ran against Miami it looked like two completely different defenses.

 

Herein is the problem in that Bills OC Brian Daboll should have been calling plays that would allow that young QB to settle in and gain some confidence, get into a rhythm which would require working the run game well enough to move the chains so the QB doesn't need to shoulder the offense. Work the run game like Anthony Lynn, Greg Roman did with a less talented line. Once the Pats defense is worried about stopping the run game then work the passing game. 

 

The Bills should be running the ball much more then they are passing it and they should have been doing this all season. If they are forced to pass because the run game isn't working then find those short passes that allow completions, get confidence up, get him in a rhythm and good things should happen.

 

Instead, the Bills came out throwing Pass, pass, sack! Penalty on Pats defense for holding! Frank Gore 9 yards, Gore 2 yards and back to the passing again. Pass, incomplete but Center Mitch Morse penalty. Frank Gore run, no gain. Penalty on Lee Smith holding. Now its 1st and 20 on the Buffalo 30 yard line and Allen goes deep middle, intercepted! 

 

Knowing how good that Patriots defense is against the pass the Bills should have been working Gore and Yeldon more all game. Frank Gore had 17 rushes for 109 yards and it should have been more. This current OC is pass happy regardless of the situation, QB, opposing defense and he has been his entire career. 

 

They should have ran Gore more. But they should not run Yeldon. Ever. That is basically a give up play. 

 

Maybe they shouldn't have cut..... oh forget it. 

 

I generally think Daboll has had a good season. I don't want them babying Allen or hiding him. I want to see what we have for good or for ill. I want them to start putting games on Josh Allen. They traded up to pick him at #7 for crying out loud he has to help us win football games. And generally so far this season I have liked the Daboll playcalling and the Allen play. Yesterday was a bad day for both. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by GunnerBill

[oldmanfan]

Just now, london_bills said:

Bringing your team back from deficits is huge. He has led strong drives and started great against the jests I thought, looked like brady. I thought he was very poor to start against the patriots and at some other times. When he is very poor like that, the throw to a running back doesn't even get there.

 

If it's a mental thing I wonder if it could be something that never really goes away.

Yes it can go away.  It’s a learning process.

 

The only first year QB (and by starts Allen is finishing his first year) I have ever seen who walked into the league and got it right off the bat was Marino.  Every other one took time either on the bench or playing and suffering before the light came on.  The only one I could remotely put near Marino is Mahomes but he sat for a year learning before taking the reins.  

 

QBs make mistakes.  Especially young ones and Josh made a ton yesterday to be sure (Belichick has done that to dozens of young QBs through the years).  But even old guys still mess up - the pick  Brady threw in the end zone yesterday, I have no idea what he was thinking.

[Bangarang]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Yes it can go away.  It’s a learning process.

 

The only first year QB (and by starts Allen is finishing his first year) I have ever seen who walked into the league and got it right off the bat was Marino.  Every other one took time either on the bench or playing and suffering before the light came on.  The only one I could remotely put near Marino is Mahomes but he sat for a year learning before taking the reins.  

 

QBs make mistakes.  Especially young ones and Josh made a ton yesterday to be sure (Belichick has done that to dozens of young QBs through the years).  But even old guys still mess up - the pick  Brady threw in the end zone yesterday, I have no idea what he was thinking.

if you still consider Allen a first year QB then by that logic Mahomes was also a first year QB during an MVP season. Barkley is also a first year QB too so if he makes a mistake then that’s fine since he’s still a rookie. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Well he actually has both so not sure that is a good example...

He is passing for over 250 yards a game (up until last Sunday)

 

That sets a record with Jim Kelly......what exactly do you want?