BringBackOrton Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bills11 said: It's inconsistent mechanics he just needs to continue to get reps...at Wyoming his base was completely wrong when throwing and his footwork was consistently incorrect ...he worked with Jordan Palmer and ofc the bills coaches to mitigate some of it but he's still thinking about it and making small errors like having his feet pointed the wrong direction towards his intended Target and having his feet spread too far apart or too little on his dropback and sometimes using all arm instead of his entire base like on some of the deep balls he's missed. He also misjudges pressure sometimes and doesn’t step into his throws for fear of contacting a defender. Nitpicky stuff really. I think he’s made lots of strides and will continue through this year. I imagine tape of Josh vs LA week 2 and Josh vs Dallas would look like two completely different players. Edited December 17, 2019 by BringBackOrton 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronyAbounds Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 43 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: exactly. Is this thread going to last 15 years? Josh has the worst competition percentage in the NFL. HE KEEPS WINNING FYI tainted Tommy is at 60.1 for the season this Micromanaging is proving nothing IMO Tainted Tommy is getting ripped quite a bit this year. The guys at 538 are all saying he has sucked for most of the year. It isn't a case of Josh getting unfairly ripped while Tommy's struggles are ignored. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seventeen Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, london_bills said: When Josh Allen is inaccurate, the ball being slightly high in the beasley INT for example.. Does anyone know if its a consistent technical issue? Footwork? Rushing the throw? Collinsworth was saying he rushed the mechanics on that one Collingsworth also said his base was too wide causing him to release the ball on a more upward trajectory than needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills11 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: He also misjudges pressure sometimes and doesn’t step into his throws for fear of contacting a defender. Nitpicky stuff really. I think he’s made lots of strides and will continue through this year. I imagine tape of Josh vs LA week 2 and Josh vs Dallas would look like two completely different players. Yup and the fact he's still growing in terms of processing what he is seeing he often times pulls the trigger a hair too late instead of making a anticipatory throw which he gets away with at times due to sheer velocity on his throws . It's all just a learning process I'm encouraged with what I've seen from Josh this season just needs more reps and experience . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Not that Collingsworth is an expert, but he certainly has much more actual experience than most on this board. During the game he commented that on Allen's throws that are high he felt it's due to him not extending his arm upward as he should, that he's releasing the ball around neck high, so then it tends to sail as he makes up for it by throwing "uphill" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seventeen Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, jrober38 said: Allen is currently 32nd in the NFL in completion percentage, 26th in YPA, and 24th in QB Rating. We're winning, but it hasn't been pretty (obviously). 18 TDs / 9 int - I'll take it. 2000 Ravens won a Super Bowl with Dilfer at around 59%. Kelly was about 60% for his career. Different game back then ? Maybe but they still had to throw and catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckyBoys Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Allen sails a ball to Beasley in the flat and he's got accuracy issues. Feeding the narrative Every qb misses throws Last night he had 3 balls knocked down by the D line, 3 drops, 2 throw aways Other than the throw into the flat what badly off target throws did I miss? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, jrober38 said: Football is a team sport. I think anyone who is objectively watching these games knows the defense has been carrying the offense all season. I mean, if Josh Allen was playing on a team with the 20th ranked defense instead of the 2nd ranked defense, his W/L record would be an entirely different story. He's doing enough and we're winning, and he's doing what needs to be done late in games, but let's not pretend that he or this offense are actually "good". We're very limited offensively (22nd in points per game). Hopefully we have another good draft and a productive free agency period and the offense can get into the top half of the league next year. If that happens we'll be Super Bowl contenders next season if the defense remains intact. What's happening this season with regards to the TEAM is that Allen has gotten the job done when he's needed to. He often makes clutch throws in the 4th and plays his best football while the DEFENSE generally gives the offense AMPLE opportunities. So it's working. But let's not pretend like Allen has been great. He's been average overall, but definitely better than last season. That's good. He had a great 3 game stretch that demonstrated he's capable of playing extremely well, albeit against lesser competition. I know this thread is ABOUT JA, but I don't quite get the constant need to demand we believe what our eyes and the stats are telling us. He needs to get better and he's got the tools to do it. The hope is that with a better supporting cast he'll up his game, which is a reasonable assumption. But he makes more headscratching throws than what I would consider to be acceptable. Right now, THIS SEASON, it's fine. I never expected the Bills to be 10-4, so whatever they have going on is working. The Bills are winning for the first time in a LONG time. They're often winning "ugly," but so WHAT? As a fan, it matters very little to me who gets the credit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123719bwiqrb Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Even Collinsworthless said when he got to spend time with Josh he can see the reason he is a natural leader. The stats will come with the wins - dude is a gamer. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, jrober38 said: Football is a team sport. I think anyone who is objectively watching these games knows the defense has been carrying the offense all season. I mean, if Josh Allen was playing on a team with the 20th ranked defense instead of the 2nd ranked defense, his W/L record would be an entirely different story. He's doing enough and we're winning, and he's doing what needs to be done late in games, but let's not pretend that he or this offense are actually "good". We're very limited offensively (22nd in points per game). Hopefully we have another good draft and a productive free agency period and the offense can get into the top half of the league next year. If that happens we'll be Super Bowl contenders next season if the defense remains intact. Wow way to totally ignore the context here. You clearly assume his W/L record would be much worse because you're clearly making an apples to apples transfer of him out of this team and onto another and assuming production would be the same. Our defense has been fantastic... absolutely Elite. Frankly, it should be considering we have a former DC as a Head Coach and we've clearly built this team around defense. That also lends itself to a certain type of offensive philosophy, which is very conservative. It means get the lead--even if it's just 1 score--and let the defense hold onto it. I really don't think McDermott would change that philosophy all that much for any QB he might have with a Defense this good. But Allen has been the QB executing 1/2 of that philosophy. He's scored 82% of this team's TDs. That's the highest % in the league. So that whole "get the lead" half of this equation has been executed very well by Allen all year, even though it's often later in the game than we'd like. He does what's asked of him, often at critical times like on 3rd down or in the 4th quarter. We don't have to pretend he's good. He is. Now I hope Daboll and McDermott loosen the reins a bit and allow him to be great Edited December 17, 2019 by transplantbillsfan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: Yeah so “we are the the worst in the league BY FAR,” really meant by 0.3% in front of one of the Super Bowl favorites. Do we have the highest drop % or not? Do you not get frustrated when our WRs are unable to catch passes they should? Edited December 17, 2019 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: Not that Collingsworth is an expert, but he certainly has much more actual experience than most on this board. During the game he commented that on Allen's throws that are high he felt it's due to him not extending his arm upward as he should, that he's releasing the ball around neck high, so then it tends to sail as he makes up for it by throwing "uphill" That's what happens with his arm, but his arm isn't the root cause. It's a reversion to the bad footwork he had at U of Wyoming that Jordan Palmer helped him with. He overstrides with his front leg and that causes all the other issues. Jim Kubiak, who is a former QB and runs a QB Academy now, does a piece on Allen every game in TBN and explained it (as far as I can tell) correctly and consistently with what Palmer and others have said. https://buffalonews.com/2019/12/16/buffalo-bills-pittsburgh-steelers-josh-allen-cole-beasley-tyler-kroft/ (paywall, I think there's a trial): "Much has been made of Allen’s mechanics, and footwork still sometimes can be an issue. When a quarterback's feet get too far apart, his hips cannot get over the bent front knee. Allen’s feet are too wide as he tries to use a torquing/rotational twisting motion to generate velocity. This rotational motion generated by torquing the hips influences the throwing elbow to be lower than the ears. When this happens, the quarterback’s hand creates a “U” cupping the football resulting in a lower release point, a lower “elbow-first” delivery, culminating in the ball being released below Allen’s helmet. Wide feet increase the chances of a high throw because the hips cannot transfer over the bent front knee and the twisting influences an elbow-first rotational delivery. This phenomenon again caused the interception that was too high for Beasley coming across the middle. The football rises as Allen’s feet are outside the framework of his shoulders and his elbow comes through first, pushing the football high." The lay observer such as myself can see that Allen's feet were wider than his shoulders and that the ball had a funny motion and almost "jumped" upward during its flight towards Beasley. (I thought at first it was deflected.) Collinsworth sees the arm not being extended upward but he doesn't understand the root cause. Where's @Buffalo716, he can weigh in here. I don't feel it's good even-handed announcing to criticize one QB's mechanical flaws without criticizing the other QB equally if there is stuff to criticize (and there was plenty to criticize with Duck, who also just plain mis-fired on some throws), and without pointing out what is done well and Allen had some beautiful on-target lasers. I thought it was "lazy" regurgitation of narrative that he spliced some observations onto to try to sound knowledgeable. But that's me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, DuckyBoys said: Allen sails a ball to Beasley in the flat and he's got accuracy issues. Feeding the narrative Every qb misses throws Last night he had 3 balls knocked down by the D line, 3 drops, 2 throw aways Other than the throw into the flat what badly off target throws did I miss? There was another throw to the L sideline to Beasley that was thrown about a yard behind him and high. The assumption there would be that Beasley was where he was supposed to be and Allen's throw was off; it's also possible that Allen's throw was where he expected Beasley to be and Beasley was not running the route as he expected. I thought Allen's footwork wasn't right on that throw either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: That's what happens with his arm, but his arm isn't the root cause. It's a reversion to the bad footwork he had at U of Wyoming that Jordan Palmer helped him with. He overstrides with his front leg and that causes all the other issues. Jim Kubiak, who is a former QB and runs a QB Academy now, does a piece on Allen every game in TBN and explained it (as far as I can tell) correctly and consistently with what Palmer and others have said. https://buffalonews.com/2019/12/16/buffalo-bills-pittsburgh-steelers-josh-allen-cole-beasley-tyler-kroft/ (paywall, I think there's a trial): "Much has been made of Allen’s mechanics, and footwork still sometimes can be an issue. When a quarterback's feet get too far apart, his hips cannot get over the bent front knee. Allen’s feet are too wide as he tries to use a torquing/rotational twisting motion to generate velocity. This rotational motion generated by torquing the hips influences the throwing elbow to be lower than the ears. When this happens, the quarterback’s hand creates a “U” cupping the football resulting in a lower release point, a lower “elbow-first” delivery, culminating in the ball being released below Allen’s helmet. Wide feet increase the chances of a high throw because the hips cannot transfer over the bent front knee and the twisting influences an elbow-first rotational delivery. This phenomenon again caused the interception that was too high for Beasley coming across the middle. The football rises as Allen’s feet are outside the framework of his shoulders and his elbow comes through first, pushing the football high." The lay observer such as myself can see that Allen's feet were wider than his shoulders and that the ball had a funny motion and almost "jumped" upward during its flight towards Beasley. (I thought at first it was deflected.) Collinsworth sees the arm not being extended upward but he doesn't understand the root cause. Where's @Buffalo716, he can weigh in here. I don't feel it's good even-handed announcing to criticize one QB's mechanical flaws without criticizing the other QB equally if there is stuff to criticize (and there was plenty to criticize with Duck, who also just plain mis-fired on some throws), and without pointing out what is done well and Allen had some beautiful on-target lasers. I thought it was "lazy" regurgitation of narrative that he spliced some observations onto to try to sound knowledgeable. But that's me. I believe collinsworths statement was about Josh when he speeds up his delivery.. that when he sees somebody late and tries to get it off fast sometimes he doesn't get a high enough release That's all fine and dandy but most of Allen's concerns are in his footwork area. When he is on his game is crisp and he looks money When his lower body mechanics revert back to bad habits whether do to lack of concentration or pressure is when he tends to sail passes ... He gets a very wide stance sometimes and then he cannot rotate his lower body correctly... he front leg being too far in front doenst let him use his natural core strength to transfer everything going on And it's all arm Edited December 17, 2019 by Buffalo716 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW82 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't feel it's good even-handed announcing to criticize one QB's mechanical flaws without criticizing the other QB equally... Do you criticize people equally? I don't. Some have capabilities that far exceed others and are deserving of different levels of criticism. Hodges is a third string QB who was lucky to be starting in a Sunday night game. The grading curve is different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW82 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) Maybe I'm late to the party but it looks like pro football reference is publishing advanced passing stats now like on target %, pressure stats, etc. Unfortunately they don't let you rank QBs with them yet via their play index but if you're willing to put in the work it helps answer a lot of the questions we've been asking about accuracy, drops, etc. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm Currently Josh has an on target % of 69%. His bad throw % has gone from 25% last year to 18% this year. Progress! Edited December 17, 2019 by VW82 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, VW82 said: Do you criticize people equally? I don't. Some have capabilities that far exceed others and are deserving of different levels of criticism. Hodges is a third string QB who was lucky to be starting in a Sunday night game. The grading curve is different. I'll take that as a reasonable explanation, but I also think it's reasonable for the listener to find it annoying and perceive it as bias when announcing a football game, especially if it is not framed that way and if there has been all sorts of pre-game media stuff about "Duck is better than Allen" coming out of an outfit the announcer has a stake in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfield45 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 hours ago, DuckyBoys said: Allen sails a ball to Beasley in the flat and he's got accuracy issues. Feeding the narrative Every qb misses throws Last night he had 3 balls knocked down by the D line, 3 drops, 2 throw aways Other than the throw into the flat what badly off target throws did I miss? he is at 59% completion. its not really a narrative. he needs to work on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I believe collinsworths statement was about Josh when he speeds up his delivery.. that when he sees somebody late and tries to get it off fast sometimes he doesn't get a high enough release What I heard was specifically in the context of that interception, where Allen had time and was waiting for Beasley to run his route. 19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: That's all fine and dandy but most of Allen's concerns are in his footwork area. When he is on his game is crisp and he looks money When his lower body mechanics revert back to bad habits whether do to lack of concentration or pressure is when he tends to sail passes ... He gets a very wide stance sometimes and then he cannot rotate his lower body correctly... he front leg being too far in front doenst let him use his natural core strength to transfer everything going on And it's all arm I've actually wondered if his L ankle is bothering him some since it got stepped on/sprained in the Ravens game. Though, he jogged around the field after the game and doesn't seem to be visibly favoring it. Anyway I hope the Bills find time to do some drills with Allen as they did after the Patriots game to help refresh his mechanics in a muddy pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: What I heard was specifically in the context of that interception, where Allen had time and was waiting for Beasley to run his route. I've actually wondered if his L ankle is bothering him some since it got stepped on/sprained in the Ravens game. Though, he jogged around the field after the game and doesn't seem to be visibly favoring it. Anyway I hope the Bills find time to do some drills with Allen as they did after the Patriots game to help refresh his mechanics in a muddy pocket I think collinsworth specifically said "if Allen would've anticipated the throw sooner he wouldn't have had to speed up the throw" Or something to that effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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