ChicagoRic Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 This post is a corollary to the "which WR do we keep" discussion. There are a few posters who have said that Duke Williams will be the odd man out because Croft/Knox/Sweeney can do everything Williams can and therefore a bigger possession type WR is not needed. I get the point, but it got me thinking. Any experts out there who want to address this argument? Are there scenarios where a WR of this type is better suited than a TE for a formation, concept or specific play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 I would like to see Williams over McKenzie for the big body and blocking. He can catch the ball well too. I understand what McKenzie brings but thing Brown and Foster can do everything he dose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFlutie Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 This is probably the most interesting thread I've seen in a long time. Of course there is ONE reply to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 For once, Williams shoud run faster than them. So normally you will try to put him in the slot to creat a mismatch with the small slot CBs or a LB. If you put a TE is easier to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyjj Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Antonio said: For once, Williams shoud run faster than them. So normally you will try to put him in the slot to creat a mismatch with the small slot CBs or a LB. If you put a TE is easier to match. Dawson Knox ran sub 4.6 and is much faster and his mobility drills are almost a direct match to Duke. I hope they keep Sweeney and Knox and also find a way to keep Duke. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 18 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said: This is probably the most interesting thread I've seen in a long time. Of course there is ONE reply to it. TE beyond an empty jersey out there? Yes please for the first time in decades.... Especially considering how the TE has been such a huge part of playoff teams the last 12 years or so... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRic Posted August 28, 2019 Author Share Posted August 28, 2019 Still looking for an answer on this. Is just a body size/mass thing that allows for a quicker change of direction for the WR? Regarding Dawson Knox: Combine stats are great, but the best ability is availability. Hopefully his hammy is all better and he can actually show something in this upcoming game. We have really only seen him in unpadded practices and some decent blocking last week. I wanna see some receiving reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 hours ago, ChicagoRic said: This post is a corollary to the "which WR do we keep" discussion. There are a few posters who have said that Duke Williams will be the odd man out because Croft/Knox/Sweeney can do everything Williams can and therefore a bigger possession type WR is not needed. I get the point, but it got me thinking. Any experts out there who want to address this argument? Are there scenarios where a WR of this type is better suited than a TE for a formation, concept or specific play? Our TEs can’t do the things Duke did. There is no correlation and if they could they would be WRs not TEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Antonio said: For once, Williams shoud run faster than them. So normally you will try to put him in the slot to creat a mismatch with the small slot CBs or a LB. If you put a TE is easier to match. He doesn't. Knox, at least, is faster than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Our TEs can’t do the things Duke did. There is no correlation and if they could they would be WRs not TEs. Not sure what you are talking about. TE's are used as WR's in today's NFL. They often split outside as WR's. And you just cantt say "there is no correlation" without citing some kind of study to support that. I get that people like Duke Williams and that he made a couple good plays in preseason, but some are going a little overboard. Even if he makes the 53 he will not play very much. He'll have a package of plays that will come into play a couple times a game, if that. There's no evidence to believe that he will do more for the team than any other WR on the roster, or our starting TE. He's a depth player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MJS said: Not sure what you are talking about. TE's are used as WR's in today's NFL. They often split outside as WR's. And you just cantt say "there is no correlation" without citing some kind of study to support that. I get that people like Duke Williams and that he made a couple good plays in preseason, but some are going a little overboard. Even if he makes the 53 he will not play very much. He'll have a package of plays that will come into play a couple times a game, if that. There's no evidence to believe that he will do more for the team than any other WR on the roster, or our starting TE. He's a depth player. My comment was more about this constant obsession of people trying to blur the line with Duke into a TE. He’s not a TE, he’s a WR and having a WR who can do the things Duke did has a major value. Now the real question is can Duke do it often. PS: Put many of the top TEs outside as WRs and they wouldn't be nearly as effective as a pass catches facing top corners instead of LBs and Safeties. Edited August 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, MJS said: Not sure what you are talking about. TE's are used as WR's in today's NFL. They often split outside as WR's. And you just cantt say "there is no correlation" without citing some kind of study to support that. I get that people like Duke Williams and that he made a couple good plays in preseason, but some are going a little overboard. Even if he makes the 53 he will not play very much. He'll have a package of plays that will come into play a couple times a game, if that. There's no evidence to believe that he will do more for the team than any other WR on the roster, or our starting TE. He's a depth player. This is such an awkwardly discussed topic because people fundamentally do not understand the TE position past that they are pass catchers. To be clear: a TE that cannot block is just a big bodied WR. A TE that cannot block, who is still called a TE, provides no more versatility than your average TE. This is the primary reason I think Croom is soooo useless. He cannot block, and he is half the WR Duke is. That being said, if we see Duke cut in favor of a TE, it should be because the coaches value the scheme versatility the TE provides over Duke's pass catching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW82 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 I was one of the people sort of saying this under the context of we have so many RBs, WRs, and TEs this year that there is going to be a numbers crunch, and having to occasionally split Knox or Sweeney out wide in the red zone in place of Duke might be the least painful alternative. Would we prefer to cut Sweeney? Or cut Yeldon given how rickety our RB corps looks? McBeane did a much better job bringing talent in quantity this year. There will be hard decisions. Duke is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: My comment was more about this constant obsession of people trying to blur the line with Duke into a TE. He’s not a TE, he’s a WR and having a WR who can do the things Duke did has a major value. Now the real question is can Duke do it often. PS: Put many of the top TEs outside as WRs and they wound the be nearly as effective as a pass catches facing top corners instead of LBs and Safeties. Well we can both agree that it is silly to talk about Duke Williams transitioning into a TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 23 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is such an awkwardly discussed topic because people fundamentally do not understand the TE position past that they are pass catchers. To be clear: a TE that cannot block is just a big bodied WR. A TE that cannot block, who is still called a TE, provides no more versatility than your average TE. This is the primary reason I think Croom is soooo useless. He cannot block, and he is half the WR Duke is. That being said, if we see Duke cut in favor of a TE, it should be because the coaches value the scheme versatility the TE provides over Duke's pass catching. But blocking and catching aren't the only things that are different about the two positions. A slot WR is used differently in the receiving game than an outside receiver. Part of the usefulness in using a TE as a receiver is that, traditionally, defenses don't know if the TE is going to stay in and block or go run a route. Also, if you do it right, you can get TE's matched up with a linebacker, but a defense would usually not allow a WR to be matched up with a linebacker in man. There's big differences not just in the skill sets, but also how they are used schematically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, MJS said: But blocking and catching aren't the only things that are different about the two positions. A slot WR is used differently in the receiving game than an outside receiver. Part of the usefulness in using a TE as a receiver is that, traditionally, defenses don't know if the TE is going to stay in and block or go run a route. Also, if you do it right, you can get TE's matched up with a linebacker, but a defense would usually not allow a WR to be matched up with a linebacker in man. There's big differences not just in the skill sets, but also how they are used schematically. You are right. WRs do not line up inline. That is different. But, Jason Croom and Duke Williams have very similar skill sets. So, what is to stop Duke from putting his hand in the ground and pretending to be a TE? Facially, it seems ridiculous. But, if Duke goes and blocks the DE with the Tackle, he will be just as successful as Croom would. Maybe I'm exaggerating how bad Croom is, but I think its worth considering. In any event, a TE that can't block inline is a pretty worthless TE. Teams can still line up a DB on the guy, just because they know that even if he blocks, he will not be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 This is a very good topic of discussion It really speaks to what we want to do as a football team......do we want to be able to consistantly run the ball or become a high passing offensive attack.....I can see the arguements for both A couple of thoughts This offense immediately got better last year when we made a concerted effort to put more speed on the field......guys like McKenzie and Foster but Was it because guys who were not fast just were not very good? I think of the WR we brought in from Carolina that was an absolute travesty.....and then I look at a player like Duke Williams....is it not fair to lump them together there was a time what we thought "bigger was better" when it came to our wide outs. Also...I think of Kroft, Sweeney, Knox......these guys just feel better then what we had last year? I say keep BOTH McKenzie and Duke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 TE are usually matched up on LB and Safeties so a good TE likely will be able to get open much easier than a possession WR who is lined up against a CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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