The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[billsredneck1]

5 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

https://theathletic.com/1161883/2019/08/26/projecting-the-bills-53-man-roster-heading-into-the-final-preseason-game/

Projecting the Bills’ 53-man roster heading into the final preseason game

 

 

Wide Receiver (7)

John Brown, Cole Beasley, Zay Jones, Andre Roberts, Robert Foster, Isaiah McKenzie, Duke Williams

Through three preseason games, Duke Williams has done enough to make the initial Bills roster. It all began for him right near the end of training camp at St. John Fisher College, where it seemed like something clicked for the receiver. Williams brought in a contested catch in the end zone during practice, and from that point forward, he’s been on a steady incline. He provides something that no other receiver on the roster does with his size, and now he’s starting to figure out how to win on his routes. His effectiveness as a run blocker is a significant factor in the decision, as well. Williams should hang on through the initial 53-man roster, but if the team makes a waiver claim over the weekend, he could end up on the shortlist to be released.

i'm praying they do this. if only 6, i would rather it be between roberts and isaiah.

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I don’t know if he can get even just a little separation from NFL CB’s.

 

That might still cost him a roster spot.

 

Maybe just me and I could well be missing something (it's been known to happen) but isn't there a receiver "type" that doesn't have the moves/ quickness to separate but still catches lots of balls...Boldin, Jeffries etc...Not saying Williams is fit to be mentioned in the same breath as those guys, but he would fall into that receiver type. Thing about Boldin especially is that he was very smart, understood coverages and knew how to find open/ soft spots. Don't know if Duke has or can develop that ability. Not saying he can't either, just don't know.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Maybe just me and I could well be missing something (it's been known to happen) but isn't there a receiver "type" that doesn't have the moves/ quickness to separate but still catches lots of balls...Boldin, Jeffries etc...Not saying Williams is fit to be mentioned in the same breath as those guys, but he would fall into that receiver type. Thing about Boldin especially is that he was very smart, understood coverages and knew how to find open/ soft spots. Don't know if Duke has or can develop that ability. Not saying he can't either, just don't know.

I think this is exactly right.  And add Hines Ward to the list. 

 

Most receivers can't get separation.  A few have great moves, a few have great speed.  Most have neither and they get open by being the guy on the field who happens to have the route that attacks the weakness in the defense.  

 

There is no substitute for great hands and ability to win fights for the ball.  It appears Duke has those skills.  I think that ability, plus the fact that his determination and competitiveness, traits McD loves, are through the roof , mean he will make the team. 

[Alphadawg7]

19 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

I mean, I am not sure how you can accurately quantify “mean” and “hungry” (maybe you have a system) but yes he may be both those things which I could care less about if a more talented, experienced receiver becomes available after cuts. But, as I said, I won’t mind at all if they keep Duke. I like what i’ve seen in 2 practice games. Against backups. 

 

People here that went to camp said he didn’t do squat in practice. He’s got character issues. Yet you and others are way quick to shrug that off but we got a collection of pitchforks for zay jones. 

 

Im just saying, it’s sounds like you’re just picking your favorites and not really having much to back that up.

 

Lets be fair and pump the brakes on "character issues" as he put that behind him a long time ago when he was an immature kid. 

 

And I think the point others are tying to make is that the Bills absolutely need a WR who has demonstrated the things Duke has been showing the last couple of weeks in blocking, high pointing, hands, and just flat out going up and getting the ball no matter what.  No one can say with a straight face there is another WR on this roster that has been doing those things.  

 

The question is, has Duke convinced the coaching staff that he can do those things consistently enough to keep over one of the other WR's.  And right now, some of the guys ahead of him like Zay have not done themselves any favors and not stepped up in their opportunities like Duke has.  In fact, Zay blew a great throw for what should have been a first down early in the game and previously flat out dropped a perfect TD strike.  And combine that with his resume of dropping passes or not making enough plays and its not hard to see why some feel we "need" a guy like Duke.  

 

And the other cuts around the league have nothing to do with who we keep or cut right now.  They could always claim another guy after cuts, but when it comes down to our final 53, it will be 100% about the guys on this team currently.  And Duke has certainly made quite a compelling case for himself to make this team by demonstrating a skill set NONE of our other WR's have...and its one that is quite valuable to a team in Redzone and 3rd down situations if they believe he can consistently do it.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Punching Bag]

On 8/26/2019 at 9:20 AM, buffaloboyinATL said:

A preseason like this one makes me wish they would increase the active roster size by 2-3 more.  And don’t even get me started on game day inactives. Ridiculous.

 

Game day inactives are there for a reason - players would get dinged and released rather than not being used for a couple of weeks.  Having some inactive allows players who need a break to recover and players who need development time and would be taken of PS place to be. 

 

Roster, both active and PS, have been increased multiple times.  Rosters used to be ?44? players when I started watching.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lets be fair and pump the brakes on "character issues" as he put that behind him a long time ago when he was an immature kid. 

 

And I think the point others are tying to make is that the Bills absolutely need a WR who has demonstrated the things Duke has been showing the last couple of weeks in blocking, high pointing, hands, and just flat out going up and getting the ball no matter what.  No one can say with a straight face there is another WR on this roster that has been doing those things.  

 

The question is, has Duke convinced the coaching staff that he can do those things consistently enough to keep over one of the other WR's.  And right now, some of the guys ahead of him like Zay have not done themselves any favors and not stepped up in their opportunities like Duke has.  In fact, Zay blew a great throw for what should have been a first down early in the game and previously flat out dropped a perfect TD strike.  And combine that with his resume of dropping passes or not making enough plays and its not hard to see why some feel we "need" a guy like Duke.  

 

And the other cuts around the league have nothing to do with who we keep or cut right now.  They could always claim another guy after cuts, but when it comes down to our final 53, it will be 100% about the guys on this team currently.  And Duke has certainly made quite a compelling case for himself to make this team by demonstrating a skill set NONE of our other WR's have...and its one that is quite valuable to a team in Redzone and 3rd down situations if they believe he can consistently do it.  

Of course, we don't know what's going to happrn, but I'm with you.  Listen to the recent I interviews with Allen and Barkley.  They both talk about how hungry he is.  He stands out on a team of competitors as hungry.  That says something, and that's what McD likes best.  I expect that both qbs are telling McD they want him. 

 

People fall in love with ideas, like the idea of Zay Jones as a prolific pass catcher.  That's nice, but he hasn't lived up to that idea.  What people should be doing asking themselves whether in the past two years they've seen Zay make touchdown catches that even approach the difficulty of the two TD catches Duke has made this preseason.  

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this is exactly right.  And add Hines Ward to the list. 

 

Most receivers can't get separation.  A few have great moves, a few have great speed.  Most have neither and they get open by being the guy on the field who happens to have the route that attacks the weakness in the defense.  

 

There is no substitute for great hands and ability to win fights for the ball.  It appears Duke has those skills.  I think that ability, plus the fact that his determination and competitiveness, traits McD loves, are through the roof , mean he will make the team. 

This is exactly what I remember thinking in the early offseason when the bills signed him. Some people contended he wouldn’t be as good against NFL db’s and while I agree that’s true, I remember watching his CFL highlights thinking “if ya got hands... then YA GOT HANDS”. The man was snagging balls in this reels that nobody on the bills roster in the last couple years even dreamed about. 

 

Combine that with what we’ve seen in these games with his willingness to get dirty and be efficient in the run game and I have to wonder how couldn’t he make the roster with those traits? 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[SJDK]

I think we keep him. I would bet on it. He is a Dez Bryant type (not saying he could match peak Dez production). 

1.Brown

2.Beasley

3. Foster

4. Zay ( I think his time should be up though)

5.Roberts

6. The Duke

 

The outcome I’d like to see though is McKenzie instead of Zay.

[transplantbillsfan]

21 hours ago, freddyjj said:

DaRick Rogers

Dez Lewis

Dhaquille "Duke" Williams

 

The "Rule of D" which states preseason darling longshot WRs must be cut is in play here.  Same goes for David Sills. ?

 

Rogers and Lewis didn't have the preseason Duke is having.

[Mat68]

25 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course, we don't know what's going to happrn, but I'm with you.  Listen to the recent I interviews with Allen and Barkley.  They both talk about how hungry he is.  He stands out on a team of competitors as hungry.  That says something, and that's what McD likes best.  I expect that both qbs are telling McD they want him. 

 

People fall in love with ideas, like the idea of Zay Jones as a prolific pass catcher.  That's nice, but he hasn't lived up to that idea.  What people should be doing asking themselves whether in the past two years they've seen Zay make touchdown catches that even approach the difficulty of the two TD catches Duke has made this preseason.  

Too be fair though... Zay made the team his rookie year.  Actually, won a starting position on the first team to make the playoffs in 20 years for the franchise. 

 

His first two season have had some highs and lows.  If Williams puts up the numbers Jones did last year, hes a steal with promise.  Hes only 27 ya know? 

 

Maybe its expectations, but I think Jones still has potential.  Not drawing the most attention from defenses this year imo will lend him to better matchups and more production.

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

This is exactly what I remember thinking in the early offseason when the bills signed him. Some people contended he wouldn’t be as good against NFL db’s and while I agree that’s true, I remember watching his CFL highlights thinking “if ya got hands... then YA GOT HANDS”. The man was snagging balls in this reels that nobody on the bills roster in the last couple years even dreamed about. 

 

Combine that with what we’ve seen in these games with his willingness to get dirty and be efficient in the run game and I have to wonder how couldn’t he make the roster with those traits? 

Me too.  Watched those videos and thought he was an elite pass catcher.   

 

I think he could be a Hines Ward.   He has hands, he has heart, he hits people.  

[Punching Bag]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Too be fair though... Zay made the team his rookie year.  Actually, won a starting position on the first team to make the playoffs in 20 years for the franchise. 

 

Zay made the starting position because his college WR coach was his WR coach and Coach McD was very hands off on offense.  His coach was also canned.

[Mat68]

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

Zay made the starting position because his college WR coach was his WR coach and Coach McD was very hands off on offense.  His coach was also canned.

Still better than Duke.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Mat68

[Shaw66]

Just now, Mat68 said:

Too be fair though... Zay made the team his rookie year.  Actually, won a starting position on the first team to make the playoffs in 20 years for the franchise. 

 

His first two season have had some highs and lows.  If Williams puts up the numbers Jones did last year, hes a steal with promise.  Hes only 27 ya know? 

 

Maybe its expectations, but I think Jones still has potential.  Not drawing the most attention from defenses this year imo will lend him to better matchups and more production.

Well, I actually thought Zay's looked better this year than last.  But I've said all along is that Zay's problem is that he isn't excellent at anything.   He's just solid all around.   

 

I'll give you an example based on what you just said.  You said he won't have so much attention from defenses this year, so he will get better matchups.   Well, what that really means is that he isn''t great at getting separation.   That's okay, most guys aren't.   Well, some people here complained that DUKE isn't good at separating.  Fine, so neither one is.  If you have a guy who can't separate, do you want that guy to have Zay's hands or Duke's?   No brainer.  Do you want McKenzie's shiftiness and speed or Zay's?  No brainer.  

 

One more thing.  Watch McD's press conference from Monday.  He's asked about Foster and he's asked about Zay.   It may just be me, but it sure seemed liked McD was thinking (not exactly saying), that both of them have showed some things and need to show more.   He doesn't want to say they're on the bubble or worse, but it seems like he was thinking that.  

 

 

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

Zay made the starting position because his college WR coach was his WR coach and Coach McD was very hands off on offense.  His coach was also canned.

He was also a starter year 2 with a new Co Ordinator.  Not that it's his fault, but Jones was the best Wr Buffalo had the last 2 years.  Let's not demonize the guys working in the NFL and basically the only wr with a pulse the last 2 season.  Before he was ready?  Sure was.  Does that mean hes a bust?  Nope.  This moment in Dukes career he was a JAG in the Canadian football league.  Zay has atleast has been a JAG in the NFL.  Does Zay need to step up?  Yes.  I have more faith in him doing it over Williams.

  

[Shaw66]

35 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

He was also a starter year 2 with a new Co Ordinator.  Not that it's his fault, but Jones was the best Wr Buffalo had the last 2 years.  Let's not demonize the guys working in the NFL and basically the only wr with a pulse the last 2 season.  Before he was ready?  Sure was.  Does that mean hes a bust?  Nope.  This moment in Dukes career he was a JAG in the Canadian football league.  Zay has atleast has been a JAG in the NFL.  Does Zay need to step up?  Yes.  I have more faith in him doing it over Williams.

  

I'm on the outside, so what do I know.  But Duke led the league in the CFL.  Zay's had two years to figure out the NFL and never has shown that he could be more than a decent number 2.   Compare Zay after two seasons to Robert Woods after two.   I think there's no comparison.   So, yes, Zay could improve, but I thyink the up side argument is that Duke has it and Zay probably doesn't.   Duke's already shown better hands than Zay.  I think the future is probably on Duke's side.   If you have to let one go, I'd bet on Duke's future.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by Shaw66

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm on the outside, so what do I know.  But Duke led the league in the CFL.  Zay's had two years to figure out the NFL and never has shown that he could be more than a decent number 2.   Compare Zay after two seasons to Robert Woods after two.   I think there's no comparison.   So, yes, Zay could improve, but I thyink the up side argument is that Duke has it and Zay probably doesn't.   Duke's already shown better hands than Zay.  I think the future is probably on Duke's side.   If you have to let one go, I'd bet on Duke's future.  

I'm on the outside, so what do I know.  But Duke led the league in the CFL.  Zay's had two years to figure out the NFL and never has shown that he could be more than a decent number 2.   Compare Zay after two seasons to Robert Woods after two.   I think there's no comparison.   So, yes, Zay could improve, but I thyink the up side argument is that Duke has it and Zay probably doesn't.   Duke's already shown better hands than Zay.  I think the future is probably on Duke's side.   If you have to let one go, I'd bet on Duke's future.  

We will agree to disagree.  I know Williams was prolific his last season.  My point is it wasn't his first.  He was 3 years out of college.  Zay gets a bum wrap imo.  Zay is the more complete player.  You can line Zay up anywhere in formation you cant say the same for Williams.  Of all the receivers on the team Jones still has most potential.  

[ChicagoRic]

Went back and watched Duke's CFL highlights again.  Speedster? No, but that does not mean he cannot get open. He uses his size/strength/timing to block out defenders and get himself in a superior position to get the ball. Saw this time and again in the CFL vids and saw it again in his two preseason TDs.  He timed his leaps perfectly to beat decent albeit 3rd string defense and go up to where only he could get the ball.  Don't see anything at all wrong with a tough, high pointing, surehanded possession receiver who is also a willing blocker.  Is he as "fun" to watch as McKenzie? Nope. The human joystick bopping around out there is entertaining, but here's the rub: In his 85 NFL touches, McKenzie has fumbled the ball 8 times.  That's troubling.  Critics decry Williams as JAG, but is McKenzie any less so?  That being said, I'd love for the Bills to keep them both.

[Rocky Landing]

46 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

We will agree to disagree.  I know Williams was prolific his last season.  My point is it wasn't his first.  He was 3 years out of college.  Zay gets a bum wrap imo.  Zay is the more complete player.  You can line Zay up anywhere in formation you cant say the same for Williams.  Of all the receivers on the team Jones still has most potential.  

I pretty much disagree with everything you are saying vis a vis Zay vs. Duke. But, your statement that I bolded is ludicrous. The truth is that Zay may have already reached his ceiling, and if he hasn't, he isn't likely very far from it. His improvements that we can observe from one year to the next is incremental. Foster likely has more potential than Zay. His improvement from the beginning of last season to the end was dramatic. Brown, and Beasley have more potential because they are likely better now than Zay will ever be. Beasley has far more reliable hands, and always has. The tape on Brown includes contested catches that Zay has never been able to make. The same can be said foe Williams.

[Mat68]

49 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I pretty much disagree with everything you are saying vis a vis Zay vs. Duke. But, your statement that I bolded is ludicrous. The truth is that Zay may have already reached his ceiling, and if he hasn't, he isn't likely very far from it. His improvements that we can observe from one year to the next is incremental. Foster likely has more potential than Zay. His improvement from the beginning of last season to the end was dramatic. Brown, and Beasley have more potential because they are likely better now than Zay will ever be. Beasley has far more reliable hands, and always has. The tape on Brown includes contested catches that Zay has never been able to make. The same can be said foe Williams.

From his rookie year to last season he doubled his catches, yards, and catch rate.  He tripled his TDs and increased his yards per target by 2 yards.  Why is he done improving as a wr?  Because, he hasn't lit up preseason?  Let's not forget what this team was for half the season.  They were a dumpster fire.  Having the same Qb for hopefully the whole season will help as well.  Nevertheless, Williams made a great catch over a backup db and has more potential.  Got it.