Bills Training Camp: Day 4 - 7/28

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Mental mistakes and attitude carry a lot of weight even in high school preseason camps. I sure hope that’s the last of that, for his sake. A pattern might land him back on the street. 

 

He won't land on the street.   He wouldn't clear waivers - a team that needs WR, the G-men for example, would snap him up, if no one else.  At this point I think it would serve Foster well in his career to stay here.  What did someone call Eli Manning - a QB who can no longer throw long? and Daniel Jones "the most Eli-Manning like of the QB draft class"?

 

I do think McDermott and Beane put a lot of weight on mental attitude, though.  Maybe too much at times.

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK Crazy

 

Unless Foster really takes a big leap in development as a complete WR (could happen) or Zay Jones is injured, it'll be Brown and Beasley for 2 WR sets and Brown, Beasley and Jones for the 3 WR sets.  Unless injuries (Avert!) Foster may see the field in 4 WR sets or for a change of pace.

Here's why: in Daboll's O, it's all about disguising the play by moving people around and changing roles.  Brown is showing he can run all the routes, so he has that element of doubt - is he gonna go deep?  or what's he gonna do?  Foster does not have that element of doubt because he doesn't yet have a complete route tree.  Zay Jones has the route tree and while he doesn't have the speed to take the top off the D (understatement) he can go deep enough. 

Foster has to show that he can focus and that he can run all the routes.  Don't get me wrong, I think he's got lots of talent, but he doesn't have lots of experience.  He is still very raw.

There is gonna be no fighting for reps with Beasley.  Unless he's injured or needs a breather, he's In.

 

Hmm. You think Beasley will be in when they are in 21 and 12? 86% of his reps last year in Dallas were in the slot. I get that he is a pros pro and a leader in that room I have just never seem him as a productive outside guy. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hmm. You think Beasley will be in when they are in 21 and 12? 86% of his reps last year in Dallas were in the slot. I get that he is a pros pro and a leader in that room I have just never seem him as a productive outside guy. 

 

I see the point here. Plus with 21, run blocking might matter. I belive Zay is the best run blocking WR on the team at present. 

 

Beas on the outside might not be the best matchup. 

 

In gereral a good group- plausible that it might be a different hero at WR every week depending on matchups. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[ColoradoBills]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK Crazy

 

Unless Foster really takes a big leap in development as a complete WR (could happen) or Zay Jones is injured, it'll be Brown and Beasley for 2 WR sets and Brown, Beasley and Jones for the 3 WR sets.  Unless injuries (Avert!) Foster may see the field in 4 WR sets or for a change of pace.

Here's why: in Daboll's O, it's all about disguising the play by moving people around and changing roles.  Brown is showing he can run all the routes, so he has that element of doubt - is he gonna go deep?  or what's he gonna do?  Foster does not have that element of doubt because he doesn't yet have a complete route tree.  Zay Jones has the route tree and while he doesn't have the speed to take the top off the D (understatement) he can go deep enough. 

Foster has to show that he can focus and that he can run all the routes.  Don't get me wrong, I think he's got lots of talent, but he doesn't have lots of experience.  He is still very raw.

There is gonna be no fighting for reps with Beasley.  Unless he's injured or needs a breather, he's In.

 

Good take on the WR situation.  Brown and Beasley (so far) are exactly what was needed.

They will be getting the lions share of WR snaps.

Right now Zay is the next guy (Daboll had the Bills in 3 WR sets 75% of the time last year).

If Foster is to be the 4th in snaps it stands to reason he NEEDS to be versatile enough to sub for the others.

 

It seems to me the coaches have to challenge Foster to know multiple positions and run as much of each tree as he can.

That's not easy and takes a lot of work.  Personally I think he can succeed in the end if he just accepts being patient.

 

Let's all remember this year is about Josh Allen and only about Josh Allen.  He needs players around him to help him gain the

experience and knowledge he needs.  Foster has to understand it's not about him and when Josh has to "line him up correctly" it

takes away his awareness from what he needs to be doing.  Counter that to what we already heard Josh say about Brown and

Beasley.  They come into the huddle talking about what they are seeing and how to work it.  I'm almost certain Josh Allen has

never seen this before and he has to be loving it.

 

 Daboll and McDermott are like Tom Hayden in the Godfather, "It's not personal Sonny, it's business".

[Warcodered]

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I don't see what you see in some of the posts.  I think some of the people responding are inferring that "vibe"  - see below regarding your reference to "any kind of punishment".  I don't think anyone is saying Foster is being "punished".  But he's not going to be given a starting role ahead of guys who show a more complete set of WR skills this year either just 'cuz "fast" or "better alternative than Andre Holmes or Jeremy Kerley" unless (avert!) injuries.

 

It's not that Foster lined up on a play that gives pause - I think we all recognize that even with the best amateurs and with media professionals, they call out what they notice and maybe Beasley lined up wrong on a play a couple times and Josh Allen had to tell Brown where to position but it didn't strike anyone.

 

It's the fact that McDermott felt the need say what he said in his morning presser, COMBINED with the lined up wrong and the walking and the dropped pass and the difference between his ability to track the ball and adjust or make the contested catch on the deep ball vs Brown's, that have people going "hmmmm".

Surely we are witnessing the outcome of adding quality to our WR room, but the effect is the same.

 

Definitely this or at least I certainly hope so. Last year people didn't think Foster should make the roster because he had the minor problem for a WR of not catching the ball, he could get open but he didn't seem to snag it often enough. He ended up making that roster with 3 others who didn't even finish the season with the Bills. This year they brought in two experienced players on multiple year contracts of course he's going to be feeling pressure moving him down the roster.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Warcodered

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

I see the point here. Plus with 21, run blocking might matter. I belive Zay is the best run blocking WR on the team at present. 

 

Beas on the outside might not be the best matchup. 

 

In gereral a good group- plausible that it might be a different hero at WR every week depending on matchups. 

 

Yea. Daboll's base is 11 personnel so Beasley will be out there plenty. But if they do get into 21 and 12 I think one of your two deep threats and Zay makes most sense as the best combo possible. 

[transplantbillsfan]

Foster will be on the team opening day.

 

The Bills coaches and Beane know what he can do and have seen him do it, they aren't cutting him.

 

Is that really in doubt?

 

There's a long game at play here with the underachieving uber-talented WR. It'd be different if he didn't have such an explosive 2nd half of the season last year--his rookie year--but he did, so the coaches are just working their/his butt off to align head/attitude/effort/focus with talent.

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Good take on the WR situation.  Brown and Beasley (so far) are exactly what was needed.

They will be getting the lions share of WR snaps.

Right now Zay is the next guy (Daboll had the Bills in 3 WR sets 75% of the time last year).

If Foster is to be the 4th in snaps it stands to reason he NEEDS to be versatile enough to sub for the others.

 

It seems to me the coaches have to challenge Foster to know multiple positions and run as much of each tree as he can.

That's not easy and takes a lot of work.  Personally I think he can succeed in the end if he just accepts being patient.

 

Let's all remember this year is about Josh Allen and only about Josh Allen.  He needs players around him to help him gain the

experience and knowledge he needs.  Foster has to understand it's not about him and when Josh has to "line him up correctly" it

takes away his awareness from what he needs to be doing.  Counter that to what we already heard Josh say about Brown and

Beasley.  They come into the huddle talking about what they are seeing and how to work it.  I'm almost certain Josh Allen has

never seen this before and he has to be loving it.

 

 Daboll and McDermott are like Tom Hayden in the Godfather, "It's not personal Sonny, it's business".

I don't necessarily agree with this, I mean yeah the main thing is Allen developing and taking a big step this year, but it's also about a lot of the young players needing to take a step. Edmunds, Zay, Dawkins, and Foster and probably several others. Foster essentially became the #2 WR as an undrafted rookie at the end of last year that's insane. There is nothing wrong with him needing to develop behind some experienced guys in his second year.

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

I don't necessarily agree with this, I mean yeah the main thing is Allen developing and taking a big step this year, but it's also about a lot of the young players needing to take a step. Edmunds, Zay, Dawkins, and Foster and probably several others. Foster essentially became the #2 WR as an undrafted rookie at the end of last year that's insane. There is nothing wrong with him needing to develop behind some experienced guys in his second year.

 

That's cool.  But I see this year as being the most important year in Josh Allen's football life.

Position coaches can worry about WRs and OL, Daboll job is to put Josh Allen in the best position to succeed.

IMO

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Magox said:

This is where people too often make a mistake, they look at his 40 speed and make an immediate determination on his speed.   There are different kinds of speed, it's true that if he gets out to the open field his top line speed is limited and he wont pull away from many defenders.  However, anyone that has watched decent bit of film of him can clearly see that he has lots of acceleration.  He has the speed to pull away early and burst through holes or around the corner, just that once he gets into the open field hes not gonna kick into high gear.

 

His acceleration is well above average.

 

Agree. See.. CJ Spiller. 

 

There is a very, very long list of Elite and historically great RBs without straight line top gear speed and even in today’s NFL. Shady was always a 4.5 guy.  Gore is like a 4.6 guy, but always has been... I belive Bell is in there too. Barry Sanders never won any straight line sprints.***edit- apparently this memory is abjectly incorrect. He was a 4.3-4.4 guy. )

 

Quickness, Acceleration, balance, vision, power, intelligence, awareness, speed are all attributes.  Any number of possible combinations of strengths  can compensate for weakenesses in others. 

 

Singletary might be one of these.

 

Also at 5’7” and 200# I don’t think he’s going to be frail.  

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

13 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Foster will be on the team opening day.

 

The Bills coaches and Beane know what he can do and have seen him do it, they aren't cutting him.

 

Is that really in doubt?

 

There's a long game at play here with the underachieving uber-talented WR. It'd be different if he didn't have such an explosive 2nd half of the season last year--his rookie year--but he did, so the coaches are just working their/his butt off to align head/attitude/effort/focus with talent.

 

There are no guarantees. There is reported  body language along with the McDerm comments on Foster needing to step up and struggling with having some level of success last season leading to a difficult second year...  drops. Mistakes. 

 

The guy has talent, but the Bills already proved they can buy a better version of Foster in FA. 

 

Beas and Brown are only guaranteed makes IMO. 

 

I belive I’ve Zay is too, but I will leave him aside as to not have that squabble. 

 

Back end of WR Corp is going to be a battle. 

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

There are no guarantees. There is reported  body language along with the McDerm comments on Foster needing to step up and struggling with having some level of success last season leading to a difficult second year...  drops. Mistakes. 

 

The guy has talent, but the Bills already proved they can buy a better version of Foster in FA. 

 

Beas and Brown are only guaranteed makes IMO. 

 

I belive I’ve Zay is too, but I will leave him aside as to not have that squabble. 

 

Back end of WR Corp is going to be a battle. 

 

They know the person as well as the player. We just see glimpses of the player, and it goes so much deeper. I think they are trying to adjust Foster’s mindset, but it’s hard to say from my couch. It may be a little like Zay, who clearly had some “issues”. 

 

I will say, Foster at the end of last year was starting to look like an NFL WR, not just a “fast guy”. There was real progress, IMO. He may need to be forced to focus to continue that trend. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hmm. You think Beasley will be in when they are in 21 and 12? 86% of his reps last year in Dallas were in the slot. I get that he is a pros pro and a leader in that room I have just never seem him as a productive outside guy. 

 

The OP to which I was responding said " Cole and Zay can fight for slot reps. "
My response was to that: "There is gonna be no fighting for reps with Beasley.  Unless he's injured or needs a breather, he's In."

No if we are in 2 WR (or 1 WR for that matter), we won't be seeing Beasley.

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, Troll Toll said:

I respect your assessment, but some of the posts in this thread give off the vibe that by Day 4 of camp it is already crisis mode for Foster. So he lined up wrong on a play, big deal. The roster has changed, but I don’t think there has been any major shift in the way the coaches feel about Foster. I think we’re witnessing the outcome of adding 2 WR moreso than we are seeing any kind of punishment to Foster.

Foster is going to see the feild plenty.  The current practice rep number is frustrating but come sundays his snap count wont be much different than Brown's.  Foster and Brown need to be staggered for the most part during games.  Having the ability to press a defense deep all game stresses a defense and will also tire it out. Most teams have only 2 guys who they are really comfortable with outside.  Running Brown 50 to 75 yards then subbing Foster for him will be a problem for defensive Coordinators and cornerbacks alike.  Teams dont often sub Dbs so running a few Wrs at them makes sense. Situations when Buffalo goes 4 Wrs Foster certainly will be the guy.  Foster catches 5 passes for 100 yards does it matter where he is on the depth chart?  Or when he entered the game?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Didn't see this yet.  Chris Brown:

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/top-3-things-to-know-from-day-4-at-bills-training-camp

 

And the photos:
https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/best-of-bills-training-camp-2019-day-4#a8154460-ea9b-4277-b5a1-26963346decb

[auburnbillsbacker]

It's funny how 4 practices have made this group forgot about the great half of a season Foster had last year.  If he leaves we lose and another team wins.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The OP to which I was responding said " Cole and Zay can fight for slot reps. "
My response was to that: "There is gonna be no fighting for reps with Beasley.  Unless he's injured or needs a breather, he's In."

No if we are in 2 WR (or 1 WR for that matter), we won't be seeing Beasley.

 

Got you. I agree, Beasley is the starting slot unless taking a breather. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, HuSeYiN_NYC said:

 

Hop off these nutz dude... is there a way to block u? I can’t juggle two wives I’m fine with the one I got...

 

?

[BidsJr]

59 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Agree. See.. CJ Spiller. 

 

There is a very, very long list of Elite and historically great RBs without straight line top gear speed and even in today’s NFL. Shady was always a 4.5 guy.  Gore is like a 4.6 guy, but always has been... I belive Bell is in there too. Barry Sanders never won any straight line sprints. 

 

Quickness, Acceleration, balance, vision, power, intelligence, awareness, speed are all attributes.  Any number of possible combinations of strengths  can compensate for weakenesses in others. 

 

Singletary might be one of these.

 

Also at 5’7” and 200# I don’t think he’s going to be frail.  

 

 

 

 

I do not disagree with your premise, but your point about Barry Sanders is not correct.

 

https://www.profootballhof.com/news/hall-recall-barry-sanders/

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

35 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

You wait it out with Foster. He earned that with the way he played the last half of the year. Guy was essentially their only WR consistently getting separation last season. You don't just cut bait because he struggling a bit in practice, IMO.

 

If you cut him you don't do it based on his training camp/preseason.... see how he does in the regular season first.

 

 

 

Not exactly arguing, but all I see that he’s earned is the right to fight for a roster spot. 

 

27 catches and 500+ yards doesn’t and shouldn’t guarantee him anything. That’s his whole body of work.

 

We all saw him make some nice plays, particularly when josh got into street ball mode. But it’s only buying him so much benefit of the doubt if he is making mistakes and copping a ‘tude ... if reports are accurate. 

 

And the the bills went out and paid for a similar type of player that is more accomplished. 

 

I feel feel like it’s 100% up to foster to make this team, but I don’t think it’s a given. For example what if Foster can’t and won’t do ST, and Roberts shows he can run the 9 and deep cross just as well. Then say they like what Duke uniquely offers and one of the two rooks... not a slam dunk, despite the hype. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, BidsJr said:

 

I do not disagree with your premise, but your point about Barry Sanders is not correct.

 

https://www.profootballhof.com/news/hall-recall-barry-sanders/

Fair enough. Watching him play he never seemed to win foot races. Probably just a brain on the wrong side of 40 yo. 

 

Thanks for being civil about it!  ? 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood