Duke Williams- can he make the team?

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...think I understand your meaning of "gadget guys" GB.....perhaps wrong, but Spiller and Roscoe come to mind.......Roscoe was termed a "unnecessary "luxury pick".....didn't one of our OC braintrusts try Spiller "between the tackles"?.....think the battle cry was that Daboll "had no talent to work with" and perhaps rightfully so...but I think he does now (sure it's on paper at this juncture)....so I think it's realistic to look for him to be innovative and creative without the need for gadget crap.....just my opinion........

 

Daboll's opinion is that reverses, sweeps and bubble screens are not "gadget crap" but part of a modern NFL weaponry. 

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I can tell you now that the moves they made half way through last year were with Daboll's urgings. He was saying get me speed and get me gadget and forget size. You are right that the final call will be Beane's but I believe their offensive coordinator will have a very significant say in that decision. When they went Daboll's way in the 2nd half of last season the offense improved. That bought him credibility in the building. Now I am not saying them cutting Benjamin proves they have no need for size. It is just less essential in Daboll's scheme than in others (that is just a statement of fact). And they have reasonable size already with Zay and Foster.

 

I also disagree that they have other guys who can do the gadget stuff who will definitely make the roster. I don't think they do. And they don't just run those plays "once in a while." Daboll was trying to run sweeps with Zay freaking Jones in the first half of the season. They are an important part of what he wants to do. Attack them deep with Allen's arm but make them defend the edge with the gadget stuff - the sweeps, the reverses, the bubble screens - so that they have to defend horizontally as well as vertically. Yeldon, maybe, could do some of it... but he isn't as good at it and he isn't a lock to make the roster either. Shady can do it (I still think Shady can play) but every time he is out there teams are keyed in on him. Roberts has never done it in his career, and it isn't Foster or Brown's game. 

 

To me if it is ties they will go gadget > size. And if they don't then they should. Because they need to commit to what Brian Daboll is doing to give Josh every chance to succeed. I know you are high on Sills. I think Sills has a chance. But I think he has to be better than the gadget types (or prove himself a special teams ace) to win a spot. And Williams I think has to be decisively one of their top 4 guys to make it. 

 

I get what you are saying, and I definitely agree Daboll will have input, and also should and has earned that input.  My comments were mostly rooted in two things:  Beane just this past week said that he and coaches do not always agree and made it clear he makes the final call and that the coaches support those decisions.  And he makes those decisions with great input from the staff of course.  Second, it was already known that Sills was pursued by a lot of teams post draft and he chose the Bills.  But Embedded showed behind the scenes how bad they waned him and to what lengths they went to get him.  

 

They clearly have a high interest in him, so I think that gives him an edge when all things are equal over another gadget player.  And also, keep in mind, "gadget" plays are not just for small, fast WR's.  There are lots of ways you can be creative using a big target in key situations, maybe more so than even one of the stereo type smaller "gadget" guys.

 

As far as last year, yeah it was a mess the first half as we had no speed on this team and no good hands either.  Zay is not one of those guys I was referencing as someone who can handle those gadget plays.  But we have other guys who can contribute this year who likely make this team or are locks.  Guys like Foster, Cole, Brown, Singletary, Yeldon are capable of some of those plays last year Daboll ran, and a lot more so than Zay is suited to run them.  

 

So the only real area I think you and slightly disagree here is just if all things are equal, which way they will lean.  You think it would be gadget, I think it would be a bigger target with good hands for our big QB and his cannon arm.  

 

That being said, Sills still needs to go out on the field and prove he's as good or better as one of the gadget guys for there to even be "all things being equal" scenario.  Its entirely possible he just gets flat out beat out by one of those gadget guys like McKenzie or Ray Ray...just like he could also easily beat them out too.  

 

This is gonna be fun to watch for sure!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Daboll's opinion is that reverses, sweeps and bubble screens are not "gadget crap" but part of a modern NFL weaponry. 

 

...think I'm okay with that...."if or when" are the deciding factors for him to determine their potential effectiveness....

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...think I'm okay with that...."if or when" are the deciding factors for him to determine their potential effectiveness....

 

It isn't just their effectiveness as plays when run though. It is their overall impact on the option game. If you are sprinkling a few of those gadget plays in every game it means in certain formations you can run an option play where it is not just asking the defense to defend the run or the pass, not just asking them to defend the run, the pass or the keep (the "triple option") but asking them to defend the run, the pass, the keep and the gadget (either in the form of a reverse or sweep or a bubble screen off a fake reverse). When I watch the three teams - Chicago, Houston and KC - who took athletic young QBs the year before us they all use these gadget plays and then take advantage of using them in other situations in the game where defenses bite. 

22 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

the gadget guys and plays were out of necessity last year. they don't have to save a roster spot just to pull off reverses and sweeps this year. 

 

I disagree totally. I think they are a critical part of what Daboll wants to do. Not just for their effectiveness themselves but because they essentially create the "quadruple option". 

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah but Foster and Jones do not play like "big" WRs.  Jones has really struggled with contested catches, jump balls, high pointing, etc and has seen himself get dominated by physical corners too many times.  Fosters game isn't "physical" either and mostly been about speed and elusiveness.  

 

Duke and Sills appeal is that they have a lot of tape of them really using their body and size to their advantage.  When it comes to playing as a big WR in the NFL, their actual height is only part of it.  

 

Of course they have both worked hard this offseason to elevate their game, so we need to see how that translates on the filed.  But up to now, we have not had a big strong target who can be open even when not opened for Josh to throw to.  Someone who can big on 3rd downs, Redzone, goal line, etc.  This is why people are intrigued by Sills and Duke, we have a huge QB with a cannon for an arm, having a weapon who can be physical, body up someone, and high point a ball in tight spaces would be a great asset for him.  

 

WR camp and preseason battle should be pretty fun to watch unfold overall, not just who will make the team but also the pecking order.  Only spots really set are Cole at the slot and Roberts as the returner.  

 

I get what you are saying. However I also think their are MORE spots “set” than just Beasley and Roberts. 

 

Josh Brown isn’t going anywhere 

Zay Jones isn’t going anywhere (not gonna cut their leader in EVERYTHING from last season). Though will capitulate they could trade him. 

 

Also I don’t think Foster is going anywhere either out of ALL WRs on the roster he really is the ONLY one with a skill set to be a No 1 WR. 

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...McBeane was quoted in an interview about Duke (will have to paraphrase) namely, "the signing of Duke Williams changed the need for drafting a WR early as a top priority".....sure sounds like high hopes for this kid who appears to have turned it around.......as usual some souring TBD experts said "nothing but camp fodder"....go figure.....

 

Also used the “No WR drafted pitch for Sills”. Ignores signing what 4 in UFA period. 

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, billsredneck1 said:

i think we'll carry 7 seeins how roberts will pretty much be a steamer.  brown, beasley, foster, jones, duke, sills and (roberts). that would be dope  yo.

 

edit: come to think of it ..throw in knox, croom and sweeny along with our rb stable, we should have the weapons to really light an offensive inferno this year. i haven't been this excited in 25 yrs. btw. i don't think we'll see kroft til week 3 and then i'm guessing injury settlement. i've never seen a foot problem overcome long term.

 

 

I will say this there will be risk in trying to put Sills on PS. Why? Because based on Embedded seems that there was competition for him a lot in UDFA signing period. I mean Bills pulled out all the tricks to have him sign. 

 

So showing that that I don’t think he would slide through waivers at all to get on the PS. Duke Williams on the other hand I do think would make it through waivers (didn’t see that much of a market) so if both Him and Sills are close through camp I think Sills will get the nod. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I get what you are saying. However I also think their are MORE spots “set” than just Beasley and Roberts. 

 

Josh Brown isn’t going anywhere 

Zay Jones isn’t going anywhere (not gonna cut their leader in EVERYTHING from last season). Though will capitulate they could trade him. 

 

Also I don’t think Foster is going anywhere either out of ALL WRs on the roster he really is the ONLY one with a skill set to be a No 1 WR. 

 

Also used the “No WR drafted pitch for Sills”. Ignores signing what 4 in UFA period. 

 

I think you misunderstood me...I meant spots that are set in terms of exact roles and the depth chart hierarchy.  The only 2 we can really say that for are Cole (slot) and Roberts (returner).  We don't know which 2 guys are going to start yet or the rest of the depth chart order below that.  So yeah, of course those guys you mentioned are not getting cut, thats not what I meant

[Lurker]

Edited July 22, 2019 by Lurker

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think you misunderstood me...I meant spots that are set in terms of exact roles and the depth chart hierarchy.  The only 2 we can really say that for are Cole (slot) and Roberts (returner).  We don't know which 2 guys are going to start yet or the rest of the depth chart order below that.  So yeah, of course those guys you mentioned are not getting cut, thats not what I meant

 

Got it. My point was the Contracts. Brown will be here (regardless of roll) so won’t Foster and Zay (unless a trade)

So that said those are 5 positions solicited leaving maybe 1 or 2 slots for a TON of WRs. 

 

Also so as I mentioned above if it is close between Sills and Williams I think Sills will get the Nod, because based of embedded he had a ton of interest (Bills pulled out all the tricks to get him to sign). That I don’t think he passes waivers to land on the PS. Duke Williams on the other hand would. 

 

However it is also a real uphill battle for McKenzie and McCloud (unless either can prove they are not just slot WRs). Because I think Beasley and Zay are your slots 

Edited July 22, 2019 by MAJBobby

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I will say this there will be risk in trying to put Sills on PS. Why? Because based on Embedded seems that there was competition for him a lot in UDFA signing period. I mean Bills pulled out all the tricks to have him sign. 

 

So showing that that I don’t think he would slide through waivers at all to get on the PS. Duke Williams on the other hand I do think would make it through waivers (didn’t see that much of a market) so if both Him and Sills are close through camp I think Sills will get the nod. 

 

Yeah, I think its quite unlikely they could successfully stash Sills on waivers.  Even ESPN covered Sills story through the draft and showed footage indicating he had a lot of teams after him post draft.  

 

Fans tend to overlook undrafted rookies, but the reality is they make up a pretty sizable portion of the NFL and many have gone on to be solid starters and role players, even very good to Pro Bowlers as well.  Teams will be scouring the cut list as usual, and I am sure Sills name is going to be high on several teams lists if the Bills were to cut him based on the amount of interest he had.  

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Got it. My point was the Contracts. Brown will be here (regardless of roll) so won’t Foster and Zay (unless a trade)

So that said those are 5 positions solicited leaving maybe 1 or 2 slots for a TON of WRs. 

 

Also so as I mentioned above if it is close between Sills and Williams I think Sills will get the Nod, because based of embedded he had a ton of interest (Bills pulled out all the tricks to get him to sign). That I don’t think he passes waivers to land on the PS. Duke Williams on the other hand would. 

 

I agree with you on all this

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Got it. My point was the Contracts. Brown will be here (regardless of roll) so won’t Foster and Zay (unless a trade)

So that said those are 5 positions solicited leaving maybe 1 or 2 slots for a TON of WRs. 

 

Also so as I mentioned above if it is close between Sills and Williams I think Sills will get the Nod, because based of embedded he had a ton of interest (Bills pulled out all the tricks to get him to sign). That I don’t think he passes waivers to land on the PS. Duke Williams on the other hand would. 

 

And Sills is potentially a developmental guy who you can almost redshirt on the roster (like they did with Siran Neal to an extent last year - though he did play teams at least). Williams is 26 and doesn't have that luxury. If he isn't one of their top 4 or prove to be a ST beast he is gone in my opinion. There are more routes to a roster spot for Sills than Williams. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And Sills is potentially a developmental guy who you can almost redshirt on the roster (like they did with Siran Neal to an extent last year - though he did play teams at least). Williams is 26 and doesn't have that luxury. If he isn't one of their top 4 or prove to be a ST beast he is gone in my opinion. There are more routes to a roster spot for Sills than Williams. 

 

Agree when I see Duke Williams I see a Position Transition Player. Goes on the PS as they turn him into a TE. Similar to Croom. 

 

Also so I think on the outside looking in that fans like are McKenzie and McCloud. 

 

If season started right right now I think based off roster, contracts and market your 6 WRs are in no special order 

 

Zay Jones

Robert Foster

Josh Brown

Cole Beasley

Andre Roberts 

David Sills 

 

if they Keep 7 likes McKenzie (IF Season Started this weekend)

[Punching Bag]

If there were so many teams after Sills why did not one of them use a late 7th on him?  There are some teams with a lot of comp 7's.

[starrymessenger]

Duke is not fast and is not likely to get much in the way of separation. But speed and the ability to separate are not the reasons Anquaan Boldin is on his way to Canton. Size, physicality, hands, the ability to use his body to box out DBs and linebackers, and smarts are the things that Duke will have to show he can do if he is to succeed. I think Beane feels the need for a big WR or two. I wouldn't be surprised if both Duke and Sills wind up figuring in the Bills plans. Agree a great gadget player can be a nice to have but neither Ray Ray or McKenzie strike me as great. I would say goodbye.

[Mr. WEO]

no

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

If he isn't one of their top 4 or prove to be a ST beast he is gone in my opinion. There are more routes to a roster spot for Sills than Williams. 

I think the logic applies equally to any of them.  If you aren't one of the top four, maybe even the top three, you have to look like you have real upside.  I think it's very difficult to say right now who other than the top 3 or 4 has the best upside.  I don't think it's obvious, for example, that Sills has more upside than Duke. I understand the logic, but there are good arguments the other way too.  

 

It's a real dogfight to make the team at receiver, @@nd it will be a dogfight for playing time, too. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Shaw66

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the logic applies equally to any of them.  If you aren't one of the top four, maybe even the top three, you have to look like you have real upside.  I think it's very difficult to say right now who other than the top 3 or 4 has the best upside.  I don't think it's obvious, for example, that Sills has more upside than Duke. I understand the logic, but there are good arguments the other way too.  

 

It's a real dogfight to make the team at receiver, @@nd it will be a dogfight for playing time, too. 

 

But at 26, having been a pro (albeit CFL) for a number of years as a slower more possession style receiver I think it is more of a stretch to see Williams as the high upside, developmental, guy. I'm struggling to think of a situation where that is the case. Much easier to make that case for McCloud, Sills and even McKenzie. 

[MAJBobby]

13 hours ago, Limeaid said:

If there were so many teams after Sills why did not one of them use a late 7th on him?  There are some teams with a lot of comp 7's.

 

Watch embedded and see the Pressure Bills put on him. There was a market for him. 

[billsredneck1]

15 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Agree when I see Duke Williams I see a Position Transition Player. Goes on the PS as they turn him into a TE. Similar to Croom. 

 

Also so I think on the outside looking in that fans like are McKenzie and McCloud. 

 

If season started right right now I think based off roster, contracts and market your 6 WRs are in no special order 

 

Zay Jones

Robert Foster

Josh Brown

Cole Beasley

Andre Roberts 

David Sills 

 

if they Keep 7 likes McKenzie (IF Season Started this weekend)

i think some of you are under rating the fact that duke was the cfl's no.1 receiver, as well as the fact these coaches know they have to dramatically increase converting redzone trips to tds. that requires a duke. i think they still believe in the need of the big body for the corner of the endzone.

 

maybe they can list him as a 4th te if kroft starts out on pup list.

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by billsredneck1

[MAJBobby]

35 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

i think some of you are under rating the fact that duke was the cfl's no.1 receiver, as well as the fact these coaches know they have to dramatically increase converting redzone trips to tds. that requires a duke. i think they still believe in the need of the big body for the corner of the endzone.

 

maybe they can list him as a 4th te if kroft starts out on pup list.

 

I am not discounting that.  However What I am saying is Based on last year well thy used Josh's Legs inside the redzone and I do not think that is going to change.  So with the TEs and add Zay, Foster both Size WRs (HT) and then adding Sills (who I think makes the team before Williams) there is enough Size at Receiving options inside the Red Zone, you know what else helps inside the RedZone, WRs with Quickness to get open Immediately (not needing Size) ADD Beasley.  

 

Also Brandon Banks Would have been the No 1 WR in the CFL if h didn't play 4 less games.  Additionally a little easier in the CFL for WRs that have issues with separation with their Head Start over the Defense.