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Zeke now says he will hold out of TC unless he gets a new deal

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4 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Why not treat holding out like breach of contract and sue the players? If I was an owner I’d sue them for every dollar I had paid them until that point. Any other business if you sign a contract and then just decide “nah...” there are consequences beyond losing future assets. 

 

 

These situations are governed by the CBA and the fine system.

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Just now, MR8 said:

You could be right, but then again you keep saying it worked out poorly for Bell, and yet 2 RBs are doing it this year anyways.  If the lesson learned by these guys was that it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't be doing it right now.  Let's also not forget OBJ and Brown were in the same boat too, so thats what 4 top players in the NFL doing it in the same off-season. Sure it's only the top players who can do it, but the top players are the power brokers because without them teams don't win games.  If you give them the ability to set their own pricing, not honor deals, leave whenever they want, teams are left with no recourse and no way to build. 

 

It's starting to look more and more like Basketball where players can sign deals and then demand trades anyways.  It creates the bad precedent of teams allowing players to not honor deals, so why bother signing them?  

 

I don't claim to have all the answers, but the more this happens I see it spiraling not getting better. 

 

Fair points, but at the same time players frequently make poor decisions and why many go broke after they retire.  Also player egos I am sure factor in where they feel like they are better than the other guy (Bell in this case) and their teams will cave because they are too important.  

 

It easy to see a trend happening here like you are, I see it too.  But, only one has actually followed through with sitting out and the final result was worse than had Bell just taken the deal Steelers were willing to pay him.  

 

I mean Gordon to me is another good case where the team isn't likely to cave to a ridiculous deal because they have some good RB's who played well last year in place of Gordon already.  I think most people would rate Bell higher than Gordon, and Bell already didnt have a big market for himself despite many RB needy teams with cap space.  Plus Gordon has had some fumbling and injury issues on his resume too.  So even if he gets out of SD, its doubtful he gets the deal he thinks he should get right now.

 

For me, Zeke has the most leverage because he is the Cowboy offense and you know how consistent he is.  Cooper and Dak played well together in a small sample size, but their resumes prior to Cooper arriving were not close to top tier pay levels.  So I think they will need to prove they can do it a full year before they can really make a claim to their critical value to the Cowboy offense.  But Zeke has already proven it and not sure there is someone on that roster that can fill the value Zeke brings.

 

So I am not saying it wont happen, it clearly still is...but also I will add that as of right now, none of these guys have sat out a season like this except Bell.  OBJ didnt, Brown didnt, neither of these RB's.  So we don't really know how much of the sit out talk is a bluff or not...and I suspect most will cave and decide not to sit out before truly missing an entire season on their resume and their bank accounts, especially when it ultimately equates to actually making less money and maybe even losing your job.  I mean Bell went from one of the best run organizations in football to one of the most dysfunctional.  He will say all the right things, but he's making less money on a team with a bad OL, an unproven rookie QB and dysfunctional front office.  No way he feels in his heart this worked out better than had he just signed the deal the Steelers offered him so he could remain on a perennial contender with all his friends and teammates.  

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18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fair points, but at the same time players frequently make poor decisions and why many go broke after they retire.  Also player egos I am sure factor in where they feel like they are better than the other guy (Bell in this case) and their teams will cave because they are too important.  

 

It easy to see a trend happening here like you are, I see it too.  But, only one has actually followed through with sitting out and the final result was worse than had Bell just taken the deal Steelers were willing to pay him.  

 

I mean Gordon to me is another good case where the team isn't likely to cave to a ridiculous deal because they have some good RB's who played well last year in place of Gordon already.  I think most people would rate Bell higher than Gordon, and Bell already didnt have a big market for himself despite many RB needy teams with cap space.  Plus Gordon has had some fumbling and injury issues on his resume too.  So even if he gets out of SD, its doubtful he gets the deal he thinks he should get right now.

 

For me, Zeke has the most leverage because he is the Cowboy offense and you know how consistent he is.  Cooper and Dak played well together in a small sample size, but their resumes prior to Cooper arriving were not close to top tier pay levels.  So I think they will need to prove they can do it a full year before they can really make a claim to their critical value to the Cowboy offense.  But Zeke has already proven it and not sure there is someone on that roster that can fill the value Zeke brings.

 

So I am not saying it wont happen, it clearly still is...but also I will add that as of right now, none of these guys have sat out a season like this except Bell.  OBJ didnt, Brown didnt, neither of these RB's.  So we don't really know how much of the sit out talk is a bluff or not...and I suspect most will cave and decide not to sit out before truly missing an entire season on their resume and their bank accounts, especially when it ultimately equates to actually making less money and maybe even losing your job.  I mean Bell went from one of the best run organizations in football to one of the most dysfunctional.  He will say all the right things, but he's making less money on a team with a bad OL, an unproven rookie QB and dysfunctional front office.  No way he feels in his heart this worked out better than had he just signed the deal the Steelers offered him so he could remain on a perennial contender with all his friends and teammates.  

Um ... sometimes before they retire!! https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/24/adrian-peterson-nfl-debt-washington

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Dak at this point in his career is Alex Smith (you know Smith didn't start all games his first 3 seasons)  at his prime as well.  And that's with that top O-line in Dallas, and Zeke.  And Cooper. 

 

To answer your question:  Carr, Goff (if he started his full rookie year, o doubt), Newton, Winston, Tannehill...

 

Let's make this easy:  If Mahomes was the Cowboys QB, do you think Jones would be sweating out the Zeke demands right now?  Of course not. 

 

 

I never said Prescott was in Mahomes's category.  He's clearly better than mediocre, though.  He's a young QB who has played very well his first three years in the league, while winning a lot of games and playing well in the playoffs.  He's not a guy the Cowboys can afford to let go...and they won't, regardless what happens with Zeke Elliott.  

Edited by mannc

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39 minutes ago, mannc said:

I never said Prescott was in Mahomes's category.  He's clearly better than mediocre, though.  He's a young QB who has played very well his first three years in the league, while winning a lot of games and playing well in the playoffs.  He's not a guy the Cowboys can afford to let go...and they won't, regardless what happens with Zeke Elliott.  

 

He's been a very consistent middle of the pack producer at QB leading a bottom 1/3 Offense.  He needs the massive output of Zeke and a top 10 Defense to produce those wins.  With Prescott's firepower behind center, that team is never going to the SB.

 

This is the point I was making.  If he was a better QB, Jones would have the leverage all to himself in the Zeke saga.  Without Elliot, that's a 6 win team.

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14 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He's been a very consistent middle of the pack producer at QB leading a bottom 1/3 Offense.  He needs the massive output of Zeke and a top 10 Defense to produce those wins.  With Prescott's firepower behind center, that team is never going to the SB.

 

This is the point I was making.  If he was a better QB, Jones would have the leverage all to himself in the Zeke saga.  Without Elliot, that's a 6 win team.

Well, they went 3-3 without him in 2017, and that was without Amari Cooper.  Elliott is a great back, but he''s still only a RB and therefore highly replaceable.

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19 minutes ago, mannc said:

Well, they went 3-3 without him in 2017, and that was without Amari Cooper.  Elliott is a great back, but he''s still only a RB and therefore highly replaceable.

 

Cooper is also mediocre.  Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game.  If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC.

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15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Cooper is also mediocre.  Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game.  If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC.

The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. 

 

Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league.  He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland.  And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well).  To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to.     

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Posted (edited)

It's known as the AB syndrome or better known in other circles as the Bell buster contract disseminator  !! And it is contagious cause it seems as though Zeke has caught it ...

 

They started this crap & now you will see every one trying something similar !!

 

I never wish anything bad on a player like a injury but now that AB has this foot thing happening i can only hope that it might shorten his playing time to not be in the consideration with other greats that played the game being humble & honoring the contracts they signed cause i put these guys both in the turd category ... 

Edited by T master

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15 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

No way the Bills are looking to move McCoy... his value would be SOOOO low... just doesn't make sense. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mannc said:

The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. 

 

Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league.  He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland.  And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well).  To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to.     

 

"Zero"?  You jest...

 

 

In 2018, with Cooper, the Cowboys Offense went from 14th to 22nd.  He had 2 huge games then 4 games with 36 or fewer yards.  In the last 3 games of the regular season, he had only 13 catches on 23 targets for 83 yards and 0 TDs (they went 3-1 despite his relative absence from the Offense).  That's their #1 WR. 

 

Since Prescott's rookie year, the Dallas Offensive point production has plummeted (421-354-339).

 

In 2016 and 2018 (playoff years), the Cowboys went 13-3 and 10-6....yet still could not get past the divisional game in the playoffs.  So if Zeke and Amari and Dak are all together again this season you think they'll win what, 10?, 12?  Ok sure...so who are they going to knock off in the NFCC?  Saints?  Rams?  Eagles with Wentz back?  Seattle, who they barely beat with only Wilson and Tyler Locket showing up)?

 

 

Edited by Mr. WEO

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6 minutes ago, MR8 said:

No way the Bills are looking to move McCoy... his value would be SOOOO low... just doesn't make sense. 

likely a fixated rumor.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mannc said:

The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. 

 

Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league.  He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland.  And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well).  To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to.     

 

No disrespect here, but I dont think Cooper has been quite as good as you are implying here.  And while I 100% agree with you that he is not "mediocre", I don't think he's quite as good as you are implying though.  Stat sheet totals can be misleading on a guy like Cooper as it hides his inconsistency.

  1. Not to be picky, but he has not quite averaged 1000 yards a season.  He's averaging 975.  And while I get that is just 25 yards a year off, for a highly targeted WR1 in a pass happy offense, thats not the kind of production you pay top tier WR money to.  The infamous 1000 yard season isn't the milestone it used to be 20 years ago, especially for a WR1 who is heavily featured in a passing offense with a solid or better QB.
  2. Coopers two biggest problems have been terrible consistency and drops, and its plagued him his entire career enough to make Oak trade him and the inconsistent play continued in Dallas.  
  3. Even in his 1000 yard seasons, he barely reached that in 2 of them.  And every year for Amari has been the same...a handful of big games surrounded by the bulk of games where he did very little and even cost his teams wins with bad drops.  
    1. Even look at his best season in 2016:  (1153 yards, 83 rec, 5 TD's) 
      1. In 4 games he had:  34 rec, 577 yards (average of 8.5 rec, 144 yds per game)
      2. In other 12 games he had:  49 rec, 576 yards (average of 4 rec, 48 yards per game) 
      3. He literally had less yards in 12 games than he had in those 4 games

In his 9 games in Dallas this trend continued too.  He had 2 monster games totaling 397 yards (217 and 180).  In the other 7 games combined, he had just 328 total yards (an average of 46 yards a game).

 

So that is the conundrum of Amari Cooper.  Every year, he will have 1 to 4 big games while being almost non existent in the rest.  He literally averages less than 50 yards receiving over his career in games he did not have 100+ yards.  And considering he has never had more than four 100 yard games in a season, that means he's averaged less than 50 yards in over 75% of his 4 year career games.  You would be hard pressed to find another WR that is as boom or bust as Cooper is.  

 

Dallas has to ask, what Amari are we going to be paying?  The guy who looked dominant in two games?  Or the inconsistent guy who has also struggled with bad drops?

 

Dallas is in a real tough spot right now...they got 2 guys in Dak and Cooper who are seeking deals that far outweigh their resumes thus far.  Zeke on the other hand has played at the level he is looking to get paid...however, there is a strong case to be made that you dont need the big expensive RB.  So none of the options are real attractive IMHO.  

 

My verdict:  I think I take the sure bet in Zeke that you invested a top 10 pick into before I over commit to either Dak or Cooper.  I am not a guy who wants to pay big money to a RB, but there are those rare special RB's that I would consider doing it, and Zeke and Saquan are the two that I think warrant this consideration.  

Edited by Alphadawg7
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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect here, but I dont think Cooper has been quite as good as you are implying here.  And while I 100% agree with you that he is not "mediocre", I don't think he's quite as good as you are implying though.  Stat sheet totals can be misleading on a guy like Cooper as it hides his inconsistency.

  1. Not to be picky, but he has not quite averaged 1000 yards a season.  He's averaging 975.  And while I get that is just 25 yards a year off, for a highly targeted WR1 in a pass happy offense, thats not the kind of production you pay top tier WR money to.  The infamous 1000 yard season isn't the milestone it used to be 20 years ago, especially for a WR1 who is heavily featured in a passing offense with a solid or better QB.
  2. Coopers two biggest problems have been terrible consistency and drops, and its plagued him his entire career enough to make Oak trade him and the inconsistent play continued in Dallas.  
  3. Even in his 1000 yard seasons, he barely reached that in 2 of them.  And every year for Amari has been the same...a handful of big games surrounded by the bulk of games where he did very little and even cost his teams wins with bad drops.  
    1. Even look at his best season in 2016:  (1153 yards, 83 rec, 5 TD's) 
      1. In 4 games he had:  34 rec, 577 yards (average of 8.5 rec, 144 yds per game)
      2. In other 12 games he had:  49 rec, 576 yards (average of 4 rec, 48 yards per game) 
      3. He literally had less yards in 12 games than he had in those 4 games

In his 9 games in Dallas this trend continued too.  He had 2 monster games totaling 397 yards (217 and 180).  In the other 7 games combined, he had just 328 total yards (an average of 46 yards a game).

 

So that is the conundrum of Amari Cooper.  Every year, he will have 1 to 4 big games while being almost non existent in the rest.  He literally averages less than 50 yards receiving over his career in games he did not have 100+ yards.  And considering he has never had more than four 100 yard games in a season, that means he's averaged less than 50 yards in over 75% of his 4 year career games.  You would be hard pressed to find another WR that is as boom or bust as Cooper is.  

 

Dallas has to ask, what Amari are we going to be paying?  The guy who looked dominant in two games?  Or the inconsistent guy who has also struggled with bad drops?

 

Dallas is in a real tough spot right now...they got 2 guys in Dak and Cooper who are seeking deals that far outweigh their resumes thus far.  Zeke on the other hand has played at the level he is looking to get paid...however, there is a strong case to be made that you dont need the big expensive RB.  So none of the options are real attractive IMHO.  

 

My verdict:  I think I take the sure bet in Zeke that you invested a top 10 pick into before I over commit to either Dak or Cooper.  I am not a guy who wants to pay big money to a RB, but there are those rare special RB's that I would consider doing it, and Zeke and Saquan are the two that I think warrant this consideration.  

I never said Cooper was a superstar, only that he's better than mediocre, which he clearly is.  The only season he did not surpass 1000 yards receiving was when he played only 9 games.  He's a 1000 yard per season guy.  And you did a game-by-game analysis of Cooper's season with the Cowboys, but ignored his playoff game vs. Seattle where he went over 100 yards and scored a TD.  He played pretty well against the Rams, too.   

 

Zeke is a great back, but he's got two more years left on his rookie deal (if you include the 5th year option).  He's also in a great position with Dallas.  It's the most visible franchise in the league, they have a great offensive line, good QB and a very good defense.  He'll eventually report.  If he doesn't, they should trade him to Detroit or Cinci and see how much he likes it.  He's a running back and he can easily be replaced, without too much problem.  Yes, there will be a dropoff, but it's not something they couldn't live with.  He's much easier to replace than Cooper or Prescott, even though he's a better player at his position than either of them.  Elliott's also got off-the-field issues that should factor in to a team giving him a new deal three years into his career.  

Edited by mannc

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58 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

"Zero"?  You jest...

 

 

In 2018, with Cooper, the Cowboys Offense went from 14th to 22nd.  He had 2 huge games then 4 games with 36 or fewer yards.  In the last 3 games of the regular season, he had only 13 catches on 23 targets for 83 yards and 0 TDs (they went 3-1 despite his relative absence from the Offense).  That's their #1 WR. 

 

Since Prescott's rookie year, the Dallas Offensive point production has plummeted (421-354-339).

 

In 2016 and 2018 (playoff years), the Cowboys went 13-3 and 10-6....yet still could not get past the divisional game in the playoffs.  So if Zeke and Amari and Dak are all together again this season you think they'll win what, 10?, 12?  Ok sure...so who are they going to knock off in the NFCC?  Saints?  Rams?  Eagles with Wentz back?  Seattle, who they barely beat with only Wilson and Tyler Locket showing up)?

 

 

I feel confident that Dallas will be good this year.  I'm not going to try to predict who's going to win specific games, but there's no reason to think they couldn't beat any of the teams you've mentioned.  They could also lose to any of them.  What's certain is that there is more than zero chance of them willing the NFCC. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, mannc said:

I feel confident that Dallas will be good this year.  I'm not going to try to predict who's going to win specific games, but there's no reason to think they couldn't beat any of the teams you've mentioned.  They could also lose to any of them.  What's certain is that there is more than zero chance of them willing the NFCC. 

 

Ok we'll file it under "anything is possible".  Heck, they were "good" last year and in 2016....

 

But that team as currently composed is not trending up---especially on Offense.  And it's going to cost Jones a ton to keep even that level of performance intact.  Sucks to be him...

Edited by Mr. WEO

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Ok we'll file it under "anything is possible".  Heck, they were "good" last year and in 2016....

 

But that team as currently composed is not trending up---especially on Offense.  And it's going to cost Jones a ton to keep even that level of performance intact.  Sucks to be him...

Do you really think Elliott will continue to hold out if he doesn't get a new deal?  I don't.  He's in a perfect situation in Dallas and has way too much to lose by holding out.

 

And I hate Jerry Jones, but I doubt it sucks to be him😄

Edited by mannc

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18 minutes ago, mannc said:

I never said Cooper was a superstar, only that he's better than mediocre, which he clearly is.  The only season he did not surpass 1000 yards receiving was when he played only 9 games.  He's a 1000 yard per season guy.  And you did a game-by-game analysis of Cooper's season with the Cowboys, but ignored his playoff game vs. Seattle where he went over 100 yards and scored a TD.  He played pretty well against the Rams, too.   

 

Zeke is a great back, but he's got two more years left on his rookie deal (if you include the 5th year option).  He's also in a great position with Dallas.  It's the most visible franchise in the league, they have a great offensive line, good QB and a very good defense.  He'll eventually report.  If he doesn't, they should trade him to Detroit or Cinci and see how much he likes it.  He's a running back and he can easily be replaced, without too much problem.  Yes, there will be a dropoff, but it's not something they couldn't live with.  He's much easier to replace than Cooper or Prescott, even though he's a better player at his position than either of them.  Elliott's also got off-the-field issues that should factor in to a team giving him a new deal three years into his career.  

 

All good, and I get your side of it, its not unreasonable by any means.  

 

I am just am in the camp that Cooper isn't worth the check is he is seeking until he can prove he can play at top tier level with consistency.   I am definitely not saying hes a bum, but I am only weighing his career against the top tier pay check he is seeking.  He has not been close to the player he wants to be paid to be IMO.  Top tier WR's put up 1200+ yards, 8+ TD's and play with consistency and are reliable.  Coopers never accomplished any of that yet in 4 years...only broke 1100 yards once, never 1200 yards, never had more than 6 TDs despite being a big target, and dropped a lot of passes.   

 

If I have to pay a WR big money, I would rather have a guy who shows up week to week and gets 70 to 80 yards consistently than a guy who averages less than 50 yards in over 75% of his career games and struggles with the dropsies.  

 

Maybe he really blossoms this year in Dallas, and if he does, then pay him.  But I wouldn't pay him until he plays 16 games the way he wants to be paid IMO.  

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Zeke needs to prove he can stay out of trouble. If he can he’s worth it. Dak needs to have a season like last year or a bit better to sell me but I think he’s developing nicely. 

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2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Do you really think Elliott will continue to hold out if he doesn't get a new deal?  I don't.  He's in a perfect situation in Dallas and has way too much to lose by holding out.

 

And I hate Jerry Jones, but I doubt it sucks to be him😄

 

Elliot has been offered a new deal.  If he wants it, it's his.  He doesn't want that particular new deal.

 

I doubt he caves.

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1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, and I get your side of it, its not unreasonable by any means.  

 

I am just am in the camp that Cooper isn't worth the check is he is seeking until he can prove he can play at top tier level with consistency.   I am definitely not saying hes a bum, but I am only weighing his career against the top tier pay check he is seeking.  He has not been close to the player he wants to be paid to be IMO.  Top tier WR's put up 1200+ yards, 8+ TD's and play with consistency and are reliable.  Coopers never accomplished any of that yet in 4 years...only broke 1100 yards once, never 1200 yards, never had more than 6 TDs despite being a big target, and dropped a lot of passes.   

 

If I have to pay a WR big money, I would rather have a guy who shows up week to week and gets 70 to 80 yards consistently than a guy who averages less than 50 yards in over 75% of his career games and struggles with the dropsies.  

 

Maybe he really blossoms this year in Dallas, and if he does, then pay him.  But I wouldn't pay him until he plays 16 games the way he wants to be paid IMO.  

As I understand it, Cooper is playing under the fifth year option this year, correct?  If I'm Dallas, I make him play out the year and if he plays well, then try to sign him or franchise him.  Is Cooper threatening to hold out?  If he is, I haven't heard about it.  

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4 minutes ago, mannc said:

As I understand it, Cooper is playing under the fifth year option this year, correct?  If I'm Dallas, I make him play out the year and if he plays well, then try to sign him or franchise him.  Is Cooper threatening to hold out?  If he is, I haven't heard about it.  

 

This is what I would do as well.  Its not that Cooper is threatening to hold out (I don't know if he is or isnt, and if he is I dont think hes publicly said it)...its that Cowboys said they are doing new deals for Dak, Cooper and Zeke right now.  

 

I just think its risky to give either Dak or Cooper the big pay day they want before they showed how the can play over a whole season together.  

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10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Cooper is also mediocre.  Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game.  If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC.

 

Cooper played lights out last season for the Cowboys. He made a big difference and the numbers showcased that, of course Dak is a decent QB who is going to command too much money. 

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