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Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?


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Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?  

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  1. 1. Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?



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37 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How can anyone make this claim?  When has Brady been without Belichick?  Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady.  Brady has never played without Belichick.  

 

And the Cassel point is such garbage.  They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points.  Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and  30.9 points/ game with him.  Brady might be the greatest qb ever.

 

Because it's the obvious truth.

 

Give me your list of all time top NFL coaches. 

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1 minute ago, Captain Hindsight said:
11 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

He went 10-6 with Matt Cassel and wasnt Garrapolo 2-0?

And 1-1 with Brissett. The one loss was to the Bills but Brissett pretty much played with one hand that day and Edelman was the backup

 

IIRC  - I think it was 1.5 games each that got the Putz off to 3-0 before the powerhouse Tyrod Taylor beat them 16-0 

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Seeing as you could be the best QB in the league but if you didn't have a decent O line & scheme to go along with it i voted BB  

 

He has been able to bring in players that can keep (for the most part) Brady clean enough to get done what he needs to along with a scheme that the other players brought in on the offense that at times were less than elite players to get the job done with in that scheme to help Brady in every way to be the GOAT .

 

The emphasis has been on team with the Pats it's a some of all the parts but there has to be a master mind to put those parts together & it has to involve a lot more than luck to make it all work especially as long as it has !!

 

Even on the rare occasion when Brady has went down BB would insert another QB that would pull off good results with in the scheme they ran & even losing or getting rid of other great players on the roster in the past he always seems to make the parts work which is his strength !!

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I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there are obvious indications of having a good QB,  it isn't always true

 

21. Marty Schottenheimer
Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06
200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles

 

16. Dick Vermeil
Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05
120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs
3 division titles and  2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV)  Super Bowl XXXIV champion


15. Tony Dungy
Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08
139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs
6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016

 

 

6. Joe Gibbs
Washington 1981-92, 2004-07
154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI)
Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion

Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach.

 

 

3. Don Shula
Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95
328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs
16 division titles
6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX)
Super Bowl VII, VIII champion
Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997

Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history.
 

Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance   (and he may not have been the starter then)  IIRC

Edited by ShadyBillsFan
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33 minutes ago, mannc said:

At this point, it’s not provable, one way or the other.  Perhaps after Brady retires and the Pats keep winning, we’ll have our answer.

 

As great as Brady is, if he had not come along, I don’t think there’s much doubt that Belichick would have found another franchise QB somewhere, somehow.  Maybe he doesn’t win six Super Bowls, but still...

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

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1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there obvious indications of having a good BB it isn't always true

 

21. Marty Schottenheimer
Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06
200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles

 

16. Dick Vermeil
Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05
120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs
3 division titles and  2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV)  Super Bowl XXXIV champion


15. Tony Dungy
Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08
139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs
6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016

 

 

6. Joe Gibbs
Washington 1981-92, 2004-07
154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI)
Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion

Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach.

 

 

3. Don Shula
Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95
328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs
16 division titles
6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX)
Super Bowl VII, VIII champion
Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997

Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history.
 

Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance   (and he may not have been the starter then)  IIRC

Joe Gibbs is the most underrated coach in nfl history.  Most great coaches have a great qb.  What Gibbs did with his qbs is amazing.

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3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

my god I am :sick: just thinking about what I am about to post 

 

Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit 

 

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1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

my god I am :sick: just thinking about what I about to post 

 

Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit 

 

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

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I think it's more Brady IMO than BB. Although I do think he is a good coach (hated to type that), but IMO quite a few different coaches could have taken their team to the playoffs and have made a couple Super Bowl appearances with Tom Brady at the helm and with an average defense.

 

Maybe not quite as many Super Bowl wins as they have now but I still think if coach BB was not there or if he had left a few years back, IMO they would not have fell off but so much.

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How can anyone make this claim?  When has Brady been without Belichick?  Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady.  Brady has never played without Belichick.  

 

And the Cassel point is such garbage.  They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points.  Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and  30.9 points/ game with him.  Brady might be the greatest qb ever.

Yeah, I don’t get it either. Great qb > great coach

Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down.  The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick.  The Pack miss the playoffs.  

 

The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup.  The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended.  They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer.

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Belichick put everything together to allow Brady excel specifically keeping games within reach with his defense or add kickers that can make a big kick when counted on etc. Now Brady might be one of the most clutch QB ever too which has helped the team as well. It's really tough to give one the advantage over the other. Yet I go with the coach since he also excelled he was responsible for the Giants success. 

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17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs.  He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore.  As to the second part, that’s pure speculation.  And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example).     I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over  the past 20 years. 

 

As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much.

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3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down.  The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick.  The Pack miss the playoffs.  

 

The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup.  The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended.  They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer.

The 49ers did.  Also, it shows how overrated the GM of the Colts and Packers were.  The Bills would win 7 games with Trent Edwards and JP Losman.

 

and Tim Tebow made the playoffs.  Flukes happen.  Belichick has never won a playoff game without Brady. 

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs.  He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore.  As to the second part, that’s pure speculation.  And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example).     I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over  the past 20 years. 

 

As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much.

It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too.  He has never won a playoff game without Brady.  

 

And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm

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43 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

 

Name an all-time great Head Coach who didn't have an elite QB.

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27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too.  He has never won a playoff game without Brady.  

 

And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm

I agree that it's complete speculation to predict what one would have done without the other.  Brady's never won a playoff game without Belichick.  I think this is Brady's last year and then we'll find out for sure which one was more important.  I'm betting on Belichick.  He's already re-molding the Pats into a team that is less dependent on great quarterbacking and I don't think they'll miss a beat when Brady retires.

 

Please, Carroll got fired twice before he succeeded with Seattle.  His early NFL record is not appreciably better than Belichick's.  Like Belichick, he became a better coach as he got older.  It also didn't hurt that he got Russ Wilson.      

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