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Malik McDowell Arrested

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1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

I respect your opinions and discussion you two have been having.

 

I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts:

 

The issue of compliance and control:

 

The number one issue in law enforcement shootings is non-compliance. First, It is critically important in any face-to-face encounter, for any individual to follow the commands of the officer, whether it is an arrest situation or not. It is for the safety of BOTH. When an individual does not comply, he or she is placing the law enforcement officer in a situation of having to make split second interpretations of movements

 

Second, during arrest situations, it is even more critical for a suspect to be compliant in order for the law enforcement officer to gain control of the suspect. Control means handcuffed. A suspect is not under control even when he or she is standing or sitting calmly. Any arrest situation has the potential to turn violent in an instant. Most officer deaths in these situations is from NOT following through in handcuffing the individual and mistaking "calmness" for "not posing a threat."

 

The issue of police shootings:

 

There are, literally, hundreds of thousands of interactions between law enforcement officers and civilians every day. Think about that. Between traffic situations, Investigations, respose calls, etc., etc., etc., there are between 50 - 65 million, face-to-face, interactions per year, and approx 7 million face-to face interactions between law enforcement officers and African Americans [Police-Public Contact Survey (PPCS) - Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)].

 

In every law enforcement jurisdiction in this country, the vast majority of resources are devoted to those areas with the highest crime (particularly violent crime) rates. There are tens of thousands of interactions every day and night in those areas in which the potential for escalation is very real - and they disproportionately involve minorities. That  is because those same areas, typically, happen to have higher minority populations as well, which, is more of an indictment on social and economic policies in this country than on the police. 

 

There are over 10 million arrests every year (FBI Unified Crime Report). That is over 10 million instances of a law enforcement officer taking someone into custody, an event that, by its very nature, has the potential to become emotionally charged.

 

There are about 1000 people killed by law enforcement officers every year: 45 percent white men (about .000003 of all interactions); 23 percent black men (about .000007 of all interactions), 16 percent Hispanic men (about .000007 of all interactions), and 5 percent women - and about 25 percent of those killed are people in mental distress.

 

About 4 percent (about 40) of all people killed per year are unarmed and about 40 percent (about 16) are African American.

 

Every reputable analysis conducted show the overwhelming majority of police shootings are justified,even in the unarmed situations. Some of them are not. When they are not, then those individual officers need to be held accountable. 

 

There are almost a million sworn law enforcement officers in this country and, as a whole, they are better trained, more highly educated, with a more thorough hiring process than ever before. 

 

Despite the rigorous hiring methods, there are going to be some bad people - just as there are in every other profession and every population. 

 

And, despite the level of training, they are still human beings who are tasked with sometimes making instantaneous decisions in unpredictable circumstances.

 

I understand the perceptions in this age of 24 hour a day, politically charged, news cycles; however, to say that law enforcement officers are "trigger happy," "mowing down young black men," "institutionally racist," etc., etc., is statistically nonsensical.

 

Is one unjustified killing too many? Of course. However, in reality, it is going to happen. That is just the result of the sheer number of interactions and the unpredictable nature of human behavior in emotionally charged situations.  

 

In each instance in which an unjustified killing occurs, the officer(s) should be held accountable. 

 

What should not happen is indicting an entire profession on the actions/events that are both rare and conducted by a miniscule percent of law enforcement officers.

 

I always appreciate mature dialogue.  It's what this country is lacking where it matters most.

 

It's very important to me that no one thinks that I'm anti-cop.  Couldn't be further from the truth.  I'll chime in on topics like this one 100% of the time and I always try to include that I have the utmost respect for LEOs.

 

Every interaction is a dangerous one; even a traffic stop.  I wouldn't have the balls to do what they do.

 

I absolutely agree that the numbers support the notion that the vast majority of police officers do their jobs "cleanly."

 

My issue, with regard to this topic, is that I feel that too many people go out of their way to justify any/every police shooting.  Too many people will say things like, "well, the guy was a criminal," or, "he deserved to get shot because if the cop didn't shoot him, he might have killed the cop."  I'm sure that's true sometimes.  I'm also sure that most would agree that it's not true all of the time and that some shootings are not justified.

 

I don't trust our justice system when it comes to a police officer being on trial for killing another human being.  I think there are too many people who can't get past, "cop vs. criminal," instead of looking at it as two human beings.  And I think that leads to acquittals that should never be.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a training issue as much as it is a psychological evaluation issue.  I'm sure there are batteries of tests done in an attempt to ensure that police forces are employing mentally stable officers.  I'm simply saying that I think the tests need to be better.  That's not the officers' fault.  It's a flaw in the system.

 

I don't think racial profiling/targeting is a widespread problem.  But I do believe it is a problem; in some parts of the country more than others.  I think, instead of pointing to the statistics that show it's a very small percentage (which I believe), and saying, "it's not a problem because in the big picture it's not happening very much," - we should instead focus on where it's happening the most and why it's happening.

 

I'm definitely guilty of using verbiage that would make it appear that I'm painting with a broad brush.  That is certainly not my intention and I'll be sure to choose my words more carefully in future discussions.  What I'm saying/opining is absolutely not an indictment of the entire profession.  Most, as in the vast majority of, police officers do their jobs well, in my opinion.  And I think we're lucky to have them.

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im thinking the officer may have made a mistake not opening fire.  what i mean is if that situation happens 10 times, how many times does his restraint get him killed?  I've gotta think more than a few, maybe more than half.  Both the officer and the violent criminal got lucky there.

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3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I always appreciate mature dialogue.  It's what this country is lacking where it matters most.

 

It's very important to me that no one thinks that I'm anti-cop.  Couldn't be further from the truth.  I'll chime in on topics like this one 100% of the time and I always try to include that I have the utmost respect for LEOs.

 

Every interaction is a dangerous one; even a traffic stop.  I wouldn't have the balls to do what they do.

 

I absolutely agree that the numbers support the notion that the vast majority of police officers do their jobs "cleanly."

 

My issue, with regard to this topic, is that I feel that too many people go out of their way to justify any/every police shooting.  Too many people will say things like, "well, the guy was a criminal," or, "he deserved to get shot because if the cop didn't shoot him, he might have killed the cop."  I'm sure that's true sometimes.  I'm also sure that most would agree that it's not true all of the time and that some shootings are not justified.

 

I don't trust our justice system when it comes to a police officer being on trial for killing another human being.  I think there are too many people who can't get past, "cop vs. criminal," instead of looking at it as two human beings.  And I think that leads to acquittals that should never be.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a training issue as much as it is a psychological evaluation issue.  I'm sure there are batteries of tests done in an attempt to ensure that police forces are employing mentally stable officers.  I'm simply saying that I think the tests need to be better.  That's not the officers' fault.  It's a flaw in the system.

 

I don't think racial profiling/targeting is a widespread problem.  But I do believe it is a problem; in some parts of the country more than others.  I think, instead of pointing to the statistics that show it's a very small percentage (which I believe), and saying, "it's not a problem because in the big picture it's not happening very much," - we should instead focus on where it's happening the most and why it's happening.

 

I'm definitely guilty of using verbiage that would make it appear that I'm painting with a broad brush.  That is certainly not my intention and I'll be sure to choose my words more carefully in future discussions.  What I'm saying/opining is absolutely not an indictment of the entire profession.  Most, as in the vast majority of, police officers do their jobs well, in my opinion.  And I think we're lucky to have them.

Always appreciate your posts, Gugny, and I didn't get the impression you are anti law enforcement.

 

I think there are far too many instances of people either justifying every police shooting or condemning every instance of police use of deadly force, particularly when the victim is a minority. Every situation is different and should be thoroughly investigated in an unbiased manner. 

 

While I did utilize statistics to show how relatively rare these instances are, it certainly does not mean they are insignificant or that there are not problems / issues that should be addressed. Healthy skepticism is a good thing, and, some might argue, a necessary thing.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to be very difficult these days to have, as you say, mature dialogue. The environment in this country seems to be one of ideological rigidity and hostility - to the point of toxicity. Too many people taking extreme stances and aggressively attacking anyone who believes differently.

 

Must be a sign of the times...

 

Cheers

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28 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Always appreciate your posts, Gugny, and I didn't get the impression you are anti law enforcement.

 

I think there are far too many instances of people either justifying every police shooting or condemning every instance of police use of deadly force, particularly when the victim is a minority. Every situation is different and should be thoroughly investigated in an unbiased manner. 

 

While I did utilize statistics to show how relatively rare these instances are, it certainly does not mean they are insignificant or that there are not problems / issues that should be addressed. Healthy skepticism is a good thing, and, some might argue, a necessary thing.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to be very difficult these days to have, as you say, mature dialogue. The environment in this country seems to be one of ideological rigidity and hostility - to the point of toxicity. Too many people taking extreme stances and aggressively attacking anyone who believes differently.

 

Must be a sign of the times...

 

Cheers

 

A sign of the times, indeed.

 

And thank you for pointing out that, as much as some people justify every police shooting, just as many people blindly condemning every police shooting.  It's a serious problem that goes both ways.

 

Too many people pick a "side," and stick with them without recognizing any context surrounding/leading up to the shootings.

 

These are the worst of times.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

A sign of the times, indeed.

 

And thank you for pointing out that, as much as some people justify every police shooting, just as many people blindly condemning every police shooting.  It's a serious problem that goes both ways.

 

Too many people pick a "side," and stick with them without recognizing any context surrounding/leading up to the shootings.

 

These are the worst of times.

 

I'd like some of the boys in blue a lot more if their dang body cameras don't happen to fall off as often at critical times. And furthermore the bad apples can get very light punishments and it feels like how Seaworld just moves their problem killer whales to another Seaworld. Outside of that of course people on either side of the argument shouldn't have one person's actions represent the group. But there are still some institutional problems that can be fixed IMO.

 

You have the camera footage then maybe so many people wouldn't have to take a side knowing little details.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
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4 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

In each instance in which an unjustified killing occurs, the officer(s) should be held accountable. 

My complaint is all too often they are not held accountable.. simply because any prosecution is basically a coworker. That's pretty much all I want to see be changed.

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7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

A sign of the times, indeed.

 

And thank you for pointing out that, as much as some people justify every police shooting, just as many people blindly condemning every police shooting.  It's a serious problem that goes both ways.

 

Too many people pick a "side," and stick with them without recognizing any context surrounding/leading up to the shootings.

 

These are the worst of times.

 

Such a good point and there are so many simple things.  Everyone wants to defend their “side.”  The far majority of things aren’t just black and white but rather gray.  If you make up your mind before you know the facts, you’re an idiot.

 

and this all starts with our stupid 2 party system.  Bloods vs Crips.  Do better America. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Such a good point and there are so many simple things.  Everyone wants to defend their “side.”  The far majority of things aren’t just black and white but rather gray.  If you make up your mind before you know the facts, you’re an idiot.

 

and this all starts with our stupid 2 party system.  Bloods vs Crips.  Do better America. 

Yeah when you divert public outrage and funnel it towards just 2 options to blame, people just turn on each other rather than working together to fix something.

 

Reminds me of Kaep's actual motivation for doing what he did being focused on just 1, maybe 2 specific instances happening just when he has to play a football game getting swept up in a storm of broad misrepresentation. (and I'm not making any comparison to the OP here folks) And conversely a mayor or police chief getting swept up in the blame for something so difficult to rectify.

 

Nobody wants any of this to be happening and it just.. sucks. That's the only way I know how to express it.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
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Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2019 at 3:57 PM, Sig1Hunter said:

You are entitled to your opinion, ignorant as it may be. Trying to clothe it in “I was a military policeman” and “I know people” doesn’t hide it. Don’t get angry when you get called out on it after putting it on display for others to see. 

 

Your statements about “community uprisings against law enforcement” show off how you have no clue what you are talking about. Ignorant people shouting ignorant opinions from the mountaintops (i.e. you) and believing that those ignorant opinions on police procedure should have any value in the discussion are more of a factor. Your misplaced perception that there was “inappropriate actions” doesn’t make it a fact. Like you said before, it’s your opinion. You are welcome to have it. I’m welcome to point out that it’s not factually correct. 

You are confusing facts with feelings. Your OPINION is no more valid than John's. Without video leading up to the altercation, it's a guessing game as to which participant is truly at fault. Unless of course, you believe the guy with the badge is never at fault.

 

Based on what I saw, the cop had ZERO interest in de-escalation, which should be much more of a priority. I also saw a clearly intoxicated "suspect" not following orders and eventually snapping well beyond any rational response. McDowell obviously has culpability here and he's going to face justice, but my hunch is that the melee could have been avoided if the cop wanted to de-escalate the situation when McDowell was on the ground.

Edited by LSHMEAB
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14 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

You are confusing facts with feelings. Your OPINION is no more valid than John's. Without video leading up to the altercation, it's a guessing game as to which participant is truly at fault. Unless of course, you believe the guy with the badge is never at fault.

 

Based on what I saw, the cop had ZERO interest in de-escalation, which should be much more of a priority. I also saw a clearly intoxicated "suspect" not following orders and eventually snapping well beyond any rational response. McDowell obviously has culpability here and he's going to face justice, but my hunch is that the melee could have been avoided if the cop wanted to de-escalate the situation when McDowell was on the ground.

I agree that we are all sharing opinions. The video leading up to the altercation was posted by me a few posts down from the one you replied to. Check it out. 

 

My opinion is based in fact. I’ve been a cop for 18 years. I’ve been a Sergeant for 7. I’m acutely aware of the legal guidelines surrounding use of control incidents. Your beliefs are based on “hunches”. Mine are based on training, a ***** ton of experience dealing with unruly drunks, and what the law says.  

 

Moreover, I don’t have a blind allegiance towards cops. When they do illegal stuff, they need to be held to the fire. Criminal cops are worse than criminal civilians, and contribute much more drastically to the decay of law and order in society. As such, they should be punished in a way that reflects that fact. In fact, I’ve arrested my share of off duty cops for stuff they shouldn’t have been doing. It resulted in backlash, and some issues with my “brothers”, but I’m a believer  in what I said above. We are held to a higher standard. 

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After reading this entire thread, I need to speak to a supervisor. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Murica said:

After reading this entire thread, I need to speak to a supervisor. 

 

McDowell's supervisor (Left) wants to know when he might be back to work..

 

Image result for mcdonald's supervisor

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Newly released mugshots of Malik McDowell ...

 

Image result for speak to a manager

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...in this wacked world of multiple cop murders, who is stupid enough to challenge an already defensive law enforcement sector on edge?.....I missed the memo....

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8 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

I agree that we are all sharing opinions. The video leading up to the altercation was posted by me a few posts down from the one you replied to. Check it out. 

 

My opinion is based in fact. I’ve been a cop for 18 years. I’ve been a Sergeant for 7. I’m acutely aware of the legal guidelines surrounding use of control incidents. Your beliefs are based on “hunches”. Mine are based on training, a ***** ton of experience dealing with unruly drunks, and what the law says.  

 

Moreover, I don’t have a blind allegiance towards cops. When they do illegal stuff, they need to be held to the fire. Criminal cops are worse than criminal civilians, and contribute much more drastically to the decay of law and order in society. As such, they should be punished in a way that reflects that fact. In fact, I’ve arrested my share of off duty cops for stuff they shouldn’t have been doing. It resulted in backlash, and some issues with my “brothers”, but I’m a believer  in what I said above. We are held to a higher standard. 

The video you posted provided a much clearer picture of the entire incident. Cop was very professional at the beginning of the interaction. Really had no option but to taze him given McDowell's size. With full context, I would agree the cop handled his business properly. McDowell turned a simple DUI(yes, I know it's bad) into a complete legal mess. Alcohol/whatever he was on and driving/interactions with law enforcement are a recipe for disaster. Hopefully he learns something from the incident because he's going to pay a steep price.

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