Rocket94 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Odds are LDE is in play but April of 2020 is a long way away. Definitely know more after this season. I bet that it is. Notice I keep saying "I bet" I can't help it. Every time that I read something about the Bills improving, the DE position is the first thing that comes to my mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: I bet that it is. Notice I keep saying "I bet" I can't help it. Every time that I read something about the Bills improving, the DE position is the first thing that comes to my mind! "I bet" you're not alone in that thinking. LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket94 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: "I bet" you're not alone in that thinking. LOL Your on! ? On 6/22/2019 at 8:23 AM, SoCal Deek said: I’m not sure what the fixation is with Lawson. He’s been pretty much invisible his entire career. Yes, he was a first round pick but if he hadn’t been he’d be just another guy on the team. I hear almost nothing about him taking a leadership role, or his mentoring younger players. He’s just sort of...there. My feelings all along. The DE spot will be addressed. Hopefully we can now give it the attention that it deserves. Edited June 23, 2019 by Rocket94 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Mantis_Toboggan Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 On 6/21/2019 at 9:32 AM, CuddyDark said: Many don't understand this. The strong side end has to be a 5-6 tech type player. Brandon Graham, is a "McDermott" draft pick, so is Greg Hardy. The defense is not a stats defense. It's a teamwork defense. Shaq has a greater role than stat. Can he be upgraded, yes. Can every player on the roster be upgraded? YES. McDermott’s scheme also relies on the front 4 being able to put pressure on the passer more so than most other schemes, and using blitzing/pressure packages less frequently than the league average. For this reason, Lawson is not a great fit, he is not a 3 down lineman who can be relied on to bring pressure consistently like Greg Hardy in his prime... As a rotational piece, sure but this is why they went out and signed Murphy, when healthy he can do both where as Lawson is mainly only effective at “setting the edge”. They already tried to upgrade with Murphy, i don’t expect them to stop. Still wouldn’t rule out a late trade for Clowney, or making a push for him next year, he would be an ideal fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuddyDark Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said: McDermott’s scheme also relies on the front 4 being able to put pressure on the passer more so than most other schemes, and using blitzing/pressure packages less frequently than the league average. For this reason, Lawson is not a great fit, he is not a 3 down lineman who can be relied on to bring pressure consistently like Greg Hardy in his prime... As a rotational piece, sure but this is why they went out and signed Murphy, when healthy he can do both where as Lawson is mainly only effective at “setting the edge”. They already tried to upgrade with Murphy, i don’t expect them to stop. Still wouldn’t rule out a late trade for Clowney, or making a push for him next year, he would be an ideal fit. The Hughes extension means Clowney is out. IMO Murphy can not do both. Murphy is a liability against the run and it's why as the season went on Lawson got more snaps. McDermott runs a Jim Johnson defense, not a Tony Dungy defense. Part of his defense is zone blitz much like the Steelers. The strong side DE must be like a 34 End when they run blitzing schemes. Hardy because of his size was able to be a combination of Murphy and Lawson. If you find that player, good. Get him. Good luck finding him. 6'4 280lbs. Quick, twitchy. Good luck finding him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 7 hours ago, ColoradoBills said: Lawson's contract will be determined on his play from last year and this year. I don't think the 1st round draft position will matter much. The Murphy/Lawson combo is not a very good situation and something will change about that next year (I'm almost sure). But, if you combine their cap hits and look at the results from last year it's not as bad as some make out. Next years draft they will probably look at LDE very hard so I don't think they want to use a 3-5 to replace Lawson but a 1-3 to replace both. That is of course with neither Murphy or Lawson having a great season. LDE will be interesting to watch this season. His draft status won't matter at all, they never do for second contracts which are always of the "what have you done for me lately" variety. I won't disagree with you on Murphy/Lawson, but my point is who brought in Murphy as their answer? Lawson was here, but Murphy was, prior to this offseason, McBeane's second most expensive contract. I've said it often, McBeane have merely brought in a bunch of injury risk players hoping that they'll for some unbeknownst reason otherwise ascede to the level of their best seasons prior. That to me is not a good team-building strategy. We'll find out this year I suppose. I'm not sure they're going to have next year's draft if Allen doesn't make monumental strides and play like he never has this season. Their futures, both short-term and long are premised upon Allen working out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rocket94 said: I bet that it is. Notice I keep saying "I bet" I can't help it. Every time that I read something about the Bills improving, the DE position is the first thing that comes to my mind! Something akin to a pass-rush in a league where passing and stopping the pass, by players actually brought on by the current staff would be refreshing to see. Of the front-7 players brought on by McBeane, only three logged sacks last season. Edmunds had 2, Murphy, their second most expensive free agent after Lotulolei (who had 0) had 4, and Milano had 1. 7 total. But I heard that Lotulolei was actually busy taking up blockers so that the others would be freed up to log sacks en route to our 26th sack ranking. So we're told. His first season ever w/o a sack. If Oliver isn't what they're expecting, with Kyle gone and Lorax in his last season and at 36 otherwise, the team won't have much of a pass-rush going forward as Hughes is into his back-9. Unlike many others, I remain wholly unimpressed with McBeane's team-building and their Process. Edited June 24, 2019 by Ronin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 12 hours ago, Bangarang said: It absolutely is fair since he's not good at rushing the passer. Are you saying Murphy has been better than an average player before coming here? Well, if Lawson is generally put in a position to stop the run, and that's what he does, he's not likely to get a lot of sacks. Why would he? And, regarding Murphy, yes. In 2016, Murphy had 9 sacks, 46 tackles, and 25 QB hits in 16 games that he did not start. That is above average, no? So, in the context of Ronin's post, where he claimed that Murphy is "average at best," that would be an incorrect statement. Murphy was, clearly, better than average at his best. And, this year, if reports are correct, he will start the season healthy, for the first time in two years. He is 28 years old. At best, he should be above average. Possibly well above average. Let's hope we get him at his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said: Well, if Lawson is generally put in a position to stop the run, and that's what he does, he's not likely to get a lot of sacks. Why would he? What percentage of Lawson's snaps were against running plays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 31 minutes ago, Bangarang said: What percentage of Lawson's snaps were against running plays? I couldn't tell you, but I'd be interested to know. My perception was that neither Murphy, nor Lawson were really complete DEs last season, anywhere near the way Hughs has been. When Murphy was active last season, I believe the two were swapped frequently, with Murphy being the better pass rusher, and Lawson used against the run. But, I have no stats, or evidence to back that up. I can't tell you that as I watched the games, I was able to account for all 11 players on the field. and I have no desire (or time) to analyze, play by play, which situations these two were placed in. It was just my perception that last season I watched Lawson work (effectively) in stopping the run, and I watched Murphy pressure the QB a lot more than Shaq. Was this by design? I suspect so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 52 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: I couldn't tell you, but I'd be interested to know. My perception was that neither Murphy, nor Lawson were really complete DEs last season, anywhere near the way Hughs has been. When Murphy was active last season, I believe the two were swapped frequently, with Murphy being the better pass rusher, and Lawson used against the run. But, I have no stats, or evidence to back that up. I can't tell you that as I watched the games, I was able to account for all 11 players on the field. and I have no desire (or time) to analyze, play by play, which situations these two were placed in. It was just my perception that last season I watched Lawson work (effectively) in stopping the run, and I watched Murphy pressure the QB a lot more than Shaq. Was this by design? I suspect so. Love the honesty. Of course that's where most fans fall: in this highly subjective place of watching the games live (in-person or on TV either at a business or a private home) and forming (sometimes strong) assessments based upon imperfect, fleeting, and incomplete information (often gathered while we curse, converse, gesticulate, drink, pace about). I thought, in total disagreement, that Lawson made impactful plays, on meaningful downs, deflecting passes (especially as the season wore on). I'm sure stats can prove me right or wrong here. That being said (that fans like me have subjective and/or faulty opinions), I think the decade-plus drought would have been interrupted if Wilson had simply, post-Butler, implemented a crowd-sourced, Bills fan referendum approach to major football decisions. Poll the fans prior to the draft, free agency, and hiring head coaches and coordinators, and execute those majority decisions. It's not a good NFL success plan, but it would have avoided some draft blunders, fo sho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 12 hours ago, Rocky Landing said: I couldn't tell you, but I'd be interested to know. My perception was that neither Murphy, nor Lawson were really complete DEs last season, anywhere near the way Hughs has been. When Murphy was active last season, I believe the two were swapped frequently, with Murphy being the better pass rusher, and Lawson used against the run. But, I have no stats, or evidence to back that up. I can't tell you that as I watched the games, I was able to account for all 11 players on the field. and I have no desire (or time) to analyze, play by play, which situations these two were placed in. It was just my perception that last season I watched Lawson work (effectively) in stopping the run, and I watched Murphy pressure the QB a lot more than Shaq. Was this by design? I suspect so. Don't you think you should have some data to back up the claim that Shaq's sack numbers are what they are because he was mainly in the game to stop the run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Don't you think you should have some data to back up the claim that Shaq's sack numbers are what they are because he was mainly in the game to stop the run? I wouldn’t know where to find that stat, and it would likely be a bit misleading. Opposing defenses don’t know when the other team is going to run the ball. Certainly, something like 3rd and one vs. Dallas, you know it’s a likely running play. Other situations are far less obvious. Again, I’m just going off my perception, and that may well be deeply flawed. But, convince me otherwise. I think that McD used Shaq primarily to stop the run, and Murphy to pressure the QB. They got rotated a lot. Do you disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: I wouldn’t know where to find that stat, and it would likely be a bit misleading. Opposing defenses don’t know when the other team is going to run the ball. Certainly, something like 3rd and one vs. Dallas, you know it’s a likely running play. Other situations are far less obvious. Again, I’m just going off my perception, and that may well be deeply flawed. But, convince me otherwise. I think that McD used Shaq primarily to stop the run, and Murphy to pressure the QB. They got rotated a lot. Do you disagree? http://www.nfl.com/player/shaqlawson/2555252/situationalstats ^ Situational stats if you're interested By the look of things, 3 of Shaq's 4 sacks in 2018 came when ahead by 15+ points, which more or less says obvious passing situation. Not a lot of context there...here they are broken down further: https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/players/situational-stats/2018/1983523/shaq-lawson/ Maybe that tells you more? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Is the claim being made here that Shaq would be racking up the sacks if only McDermott used him right? What a load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Like this, perhaps? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 On 6/20/2019 at 9:52 AM, Max Fischer said: Regardless of his 2019 performance, I don't think the Bills re-sign Lawson. I can only see it if Lawson performs at a pro-bowl level AND he's willing to give a hometown discount (which seems very doubtful for a guy who might be playing for his last contract). They're not resigning him. He's a nice depth DE and nothing else. And he's definitely not worth 8-10M/yr. This will be his last season in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 49 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: I wouldn’t know where to find that stat, and it would likely be a bit misleading. Opposing defenses don’t know when the other team is going to run the ball. Certainly, something like 3rd and one vs. Dallas, you know it’s a likely running play. Other situations are far less obvious. Again, I’m just going off my perception, and that may well be deeply flawed. But, convince me otherwise. I think that McD used Shaq primarily to stop the run, and Murphy to pressure the QB. They got rotated a lot. Do you disagree? What am I supposed to convince you of? I think Shaq is a poor pass rusher. Certainly if we go by your claim that McD primarily used him against the run, then that stands to reason he must feel the same way no? You created the argument that his sack numbers are low because he wasn't used that way and I'm saying that there was a reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, Bangarang said: What am I supposed to convince you of? I think Shaq is a poor pass rusher. Certainly if we go by your claim that McD primarily used him against the run, then that stands to reason he must feel the same way no? You created the argument that his sack numbers are low because he wasn't used that way and I'm saying that there was a reason for it. Well, sure. And I’m not really disagreeing with you. But then, if he is infrequently put in a position where he will be able to get to the QB, maybe 4 sacks for the year isn’t so bad? Really, my point (responding to a different poster) was that using such numbers without any context doesn’t prove much. And, really, that other poster is becoming famous for using stats completely out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Bangarang said: Don't you think you should have some data to back up the claim that Shaq's sack numbers are what they are because he was mainly in the game to stop the run? since you are countering, i believe the onus is upon you here. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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