Augie Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, transient said: It's not even just "alpha" owners. I can't tell you how many times I've been at a dog park and seen someone sitting on a bench looking at their phone without any idea where their dog is or what it's doing? There's more of that than aggressive owners with aggressive dogs. Yes, lazy and stupid certainly contributes to the problem. Plenty of all to go around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 33 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said: 29 years in law enforcement and I can confidently say Pit Bulls are the preferred choice of dog for thugs. That's crappy for the breed and probably true. Curious where German Shepards would factor in this discussion if they weren't police dogs and middle class America didn't view them as acceptable pets. My parents always had shepards and hey were azzholes. My parents were average(-) pet owners in terms of training and attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 On 6/7/2019 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said: Pit Bulls may not even be the most aggressive breed of dog, but they are the ones who can and will do the most damage if they do snap. I had a mini dauchshund that we had to put down. Despite spending thousands of dollars on trainers, vets, a pet “psychologist,” psychotropic medications...she bit 5 people before we had to make that difficult decision. Fortunate for us, her bites were tiny and largely harmless. I think she only broke the skin once and just barely. Chows, chihuahuas, collies, and cocker spaniels can ask be very aggressive breeds. Unfortunate for PB’s is that they are so big/strong and attack so relentlessly and violently...their worst attacks tend to make national news. I think Pitts are beautiful and I have found them generally to be very sweet and loyal dogs (although I have never owned one). I would never, however, let my children near one...especially one that I don’t know extremely well. Maybe less of a chance that they get attacked by a chihuahua, but at least the chihuahua wouldn’t leave them disfigured for life or dead. Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, snafu said: I’ve got a different analogy. Airbag recall. There are millions of cars with potentially faulty airbags that can go off any time. Those (more cars than pit bulls) airbags have killed and injured fewer people than pit bulls (fewer dogs than cars) yet there was a massive recall of all the autos with those airbags installed. I've got a different analogy. There are 5 million Hondas on the road. 250 people were killed by people driving Hondas, or a car that may have had an OEM Honda part on it ; even if it was a Ford Pinto with a Honda windshield wiper it was classified as a Honda at the time of the accident. Of those 250 people, the drivers of the car were unlicensed or drunk for 240 of those accidents. Of the other 10, there was a problem with the car, which, while horrific and unfortunate, when you look at other car manufacturers is similar percentage wise with cars on the road. Why do you think loyal, licensed Honda owners with clean driving records think I'm crazy when I say it's about time we shut down Honda? Also, when you break from your analogy, your "recall" is a euphemism for killing 5 million dogs. Edited June 9, 2019 by transient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaoulDuke79 Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, transient said: I've got a different analogy. There are 5 million Hondas on the road. 250 people were killed by people driving Hondas, or a car that may have had an OEM Honda part on it ; even if it was just a windshield wiper it was classified as a Honda at the time of the accident. Of those 250 people, the drivers of the car were unlicensed or drunk for 240 of those accidents. Of the other 10, there was a problem with the car, which, while horrific and unfortunate, when you look at other car manufacturers is similar percentage wise with cars on the road. Why do you think loyal, licensed Honda owners with clean driving records think I'm crazy when I say it's about time we shut down Honda? Also, when you break from of your analogy, your "recall" means killing 5 million dogs. A car doesn't have the ability the think or decide what happens. 100% of what happens is due to humans. The same thing can't be said about animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 52 minutes ago, transient said: Just sayin'... Yes, but you understand the overarching point, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said: A car doesn't have the ability the think or decide what happens. 100% of what happens is due to humans. The same thing can't be said about animals. To your first point, mechanical failure can cause car crashes, so no, 100% of what happens is not due to humans. As for the human aspect of animal behavior, I would argue that counts for more than breed in most instances, either through inhumane treatment and/or training intent or through negligence. Unfortunately, negligence can occur with well meaning dog owners who should never own certain types of dogs no matter how much they love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaoulDuke79 Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, transient said: To your first point, mechanical failure can cause car crashes, so no, 100% of what happens is not due to humans. As for the human aspect of animal behavior, I would argue that counts for more than breed in most instances, either through inhumane treatment and/or training intent or through negligence. Unfortunately, negligence can occur with well meaning dog owners who should never own certain types of dogs no matter how much they love them. I guess you can argue the nature vs. nurture thing. That argument has been going on for ages and I don't think there will ever be a clear answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: Yes, but you understand the overarching point, correct? Of course I do. I'm not arguing that. In fact, I have no problem with Fergy's idea of background checks and licensing, as it would probably cut down on mistreatment of animals significantly in addition to limiting these incidents. I just wonder why he only sees fit to offer pit bulls that courtesy and not all breeds. It was kinda tongue in cheek since you had said it was unlikely that someone could be disfigured by a Chihuahua and I remembered seeing that very thing on Botched, but it was also to make the point that a dog, no matter how small, is an animal that is unpredictable and capable of causing significant injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 3 hours ago, teef said: As bill burr says, a pit bull is a gun you can pet. I don’t mean to come across harsh towards the breed, because there really are some wonderful pits out there. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, it’s all about the owners. I just don’t trust many to be good enough owners when owning that type of dog. 2 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Of all the dumb ***** Bill Burr has said, that quote is probably one the dumbest. I haven't listened to Bill Burr in quite a while, but I remember he was super emotional because he felt he had to get rid of his beloved pit bull - because they had a baby on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Augie said: When we got our most recent Golden Retriever from a quality breeder, and I had to pass an interrogation before he would accept our money. Where do you live? Do you have a fenced yard? Have you had dogs before? How many? How recently? What do you do for a living (as in, how long are your hours)? Will you be able to get the dog out? This went on for quite a while, and I was pleased he was doing a thorough vetting. My son and his GF got a dog about a year ago. I tried to warn them about what they were getting into, but they freely admit it was more than they expected. The only way they could do it was with my constant help early on, and occasional help to this day. You can’t just leave a dog chained up. It’s wrong on so many levels..... Reputable breeders are critically important. I'm a "Doberman guy" and have been since I've been an adult. I have gotten 6 of my 8 from Rescues - most dogs that "couldn't" be socialized. Of them, only one was beyond my ability to "fix." I'm under NO illusion that there aren't "bad" dogs or dogs that society is better off without. Simply put, it's VERY often on the owner but not always. That being said, there's little reason to ban a specific breed - that's a slippery slope I'm not willing to go down. I wouldn't mind seeing very high insurance requirements for pit bull owners because that alone would probably be enough of a deterrent to put most of that genie back in the bottle. Reputable American Staffordshire terrier breeders would NEVER knowingly sell one of their animals to a bad person/family. In my experience, they love those dogs and only want the best for them. We finally went and got a full purebred Doberman from a great breeder and she is amazing. I struggled with that decision because of how many Dobermans are in foster homes or kennels but I'm starting to think that the rescue thing is almost as big a contributor to the overpopulation problem as it is a solution. Far too many people get into the working breeds for the wrong reasons and then find out that the dogs require as much work as their kids do, at least for a couple of years. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: What position would a Pit Bull play if they could play football? I would say edge rusher or strong safety. Thoughts? I would say Gronkowski specifically. Big, dumb, fun...Until he snaps and tries to kill someone that is smaller and defenseless. 2 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: If Josh Allen was a dog, what type of a dog would he be? ? German Shorthair Pointer! Smart and the ultimate athlete! I had one and he was awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 hours ago, transient said: Also, when you break from your analogy, your "recall" is a euphemism for killing 5 million dogs. No, I’d never advocate that. The original question of this thread was whether there should be some sort of regulation covering pit bulls and their owners. My analogy tried to point out that our society regulates matters that kill or maim fewer people than pit bulls (rightly so or not). Some people in this thread think this is a ridiculous idea and have pointed to the fact that there are relatively few deaths:number of dogs. That shouldn’t be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, snafu said: No, I’d never advocate that. The original question of this thread was whether there should be some sort of regulation covering pit bulls and their owners. My analogy tried to point out that our society regulates matters that kill or maim fewer people than pit bulls (rightly so or not). Some people in this thread think this is a ridiculous idea and have pointed to the fact that there are relatively few deaths:number of dogs. That shouldn’t be a factor. My apologies. I interpreted your analogy as a justification to "recall" the breed for an outcome that was statistically more probable than a faulty airbag killing the driver of a car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 A buy back program is required to get these dogs off the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 8 hours ago, GoBills808 said: There’s no research suggesting pit bull types are more prone to getting ‘triggered’ and attacking a human than other breeds of dog. bull####. With all due respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Gugny said: bull####. With all due respect. “With all due respect!” Ha! You know what’s coming next! Or, in your case......ah, never mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 33 minutes ago, Gugny said: bull####. With all due respect. Here- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/owners-not-breeds-predict-whether-dog-will-be-aggressive-180949962/ Link to the study is here- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016815911300292X Takeaway for TLDR- '...These data suggest that although general characteristics of dogs and owners may be a factor at population level, it would be inappropriate to make assumptions about an individual animal's risk of aggression to people based on characteristics such as breed.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanners Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 17 hours ago, transient said: Are you describing a situation in which your dog was socializing with an unfamiliar dog in the presence of your 5 year old daughter without you in the immediate vicinity? No. A woman was walking a dog in front of my house. My kids were playing in the yard, while, I was playing with my Shih Tzu, who by the way was on a long leash. As the pit bull approached. I grabbed my dog's chain, and they approached each other as dogs do. Lady said dog was friendly, my dog went in for a sniff after the pit was sniffing the crap out of my dog, and whammo! Vice grips on my dogs head. Don't try to put the blame on us. The lady couldn't control the dog, so I kicked the living ***** out of it until he let go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 10 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Here- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/owners-not-breeds-predict-whether-dog-will-be-aggressive-180949962/ Link to the study is here- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016815911300292X Takeaway for TLDR- '...These data suggest that although general characteristics of dogs and owners may be a factor at population level, it would be inappropriate to make assumptions about an individual animal's risk of aggression to people based on characteristics such as breed.' I'm sorry, but I still say BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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