Thurman#1 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...LOL...Favre was Favre.....he'd throw five picks in a game and the adjective in the post game analysis was "gunslinger" (LOL-2004 draft pundits labeled JP Losman as the "heir apparent gunslinger" going to the Pack at #23, derailed by Tommy Donohole)......anybody else throwin' 5 picks either gets the Texas Death Penalty or castration (Peterman escaped).. Yes, he was a gunslinger. And yes that meant he threw INTs sometimes. But not all that many as people seem to imply. But an awful lot of the fact that he threw more INTs than anyone else was because he had more attempts than anyone else. Quick quiz: In all of football history, how many other QBs have thrown even HALF as many passes as Favre threw? HALF or more? Answer: Only 25 other QBs in all of NFL history threw for HALF as many attempts as Favre. How about 3/4 as many? How many guys threw that many? Only five other guys, and two of them are brothers. Brees, P. Manning, Brady, Marino and E. Manning. That has a lot to do with Favre being the INTs leader. Edited May 28, 2019 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Looks like INTs cost the Bills two games - Jets and Dolphins. Bills win those two and they don't get Oliver. My recollection was that Allen was better than your summary, in the sense that he didn't have a lot of INTs where I thought he was fooled by the defense and didn't understand what he was doing. That is, usually when Allen threw an INT, I thought "bad throw," not "bad decision." Reading your description, if you factor in down and distance, quarter, score, it seems like several were bad decisions in the sense that he should know not to take that risk. That's what Brady is so good at - he's always willing to wait for the next down or the next series. Getting zero and moving on is better than making a throw that has a 1/3 chance of being intercepted. And that goes along with, as others have said, the notion that Allen has to take the easy short throw more often. That's what Brady does, too; If it's okay to get zero and move on, it's even better to get five yards and move on. McDermott talks a lot about putting guys in position to make plays. In the discussion of sacks in the Chris Simms thread, I mentioned that McD said about Hughes that getting pressures is more important to the Bills than getting sacks. I realized that McD says that because a pressure gives at least two guys a chance to make a play - the guy who created the pressure can get a sack or a fumble, and a defensive back can get a play on the ball. Plus, of course, another rusher may get the sack or fumble. McD said at the end of last season that they want Allen to throw more short balls, and it's for the same reason. The short ball gives another player a chance to make a play. It's all part of McDermott's team concept. Big plays are nice, but he isn't relying on big plays to win games - he's relying on guys making the ordinary plays they SHOULD make and trusting others on the team to make the ordinary plays THEY should make. No, McDermott didn't say that. " You know when you just look at the stats and you mention the number seven, if you pull up the tape, you watch the tape and talk about sacks versus affecting the quarterback, everyone wants the sack numbers. But just as important at times is how many times you affect the quarterback. Whether it’s getting him off the spot, his vision or his arm in a way the ball comes out. There were a number of those in over the past couple years since I’ve been around Jerry and you know we value pass rushers and the ability to affect the quarterback with the front four. He was a big piece of that last year and our goal and Jerry’s goal as well is to grow, improve and evolve and you got to be able to get there with your front four." ... and about whether sacks are overrated ... "You never want to take credit away from where credit is due. You look at the great sack artists over the years like as football fans we all watch [Mark] Gastineau and [Lawrence] Taylor who, you know, guys who had the numbers, so I’d never want to take anything away from them. But just when you study the game of how you win games, you have to affect the quarterback. I think a lot of interceptions and incompletions come from just getting the quarterback moved off his spot. Like I’ve said affecting his vision, affecting the way the trajectory of the ball is and his arm. I don’t think it’s overrated because it’s important that you can sack the quarterback but at the end of the day at a minimum you have to be able to affect the quarterback in some way shape or form. " https://buffalonews.com/2019/05/21/what-they-said-sean-mcdermott-josh-allen-jerry-hughes-at-bills-otas/ He certainly did NOT say it was more important than sacks. Edited May 28, 2019 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 No doubt Josh made rookie mistakes, but he did improve as the season wore on. IIRC two of the INT's were Hail Mary's and even though recorded as such I give him a mulligan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) On 5/21/2019 at 9:12 AM, Forward Progress said: Brett Favre has an unbreakable record for most career interceptions and I'm sure we'd be happy if Josh matched Favre's career. That's true but interceptions in general these days have dropped dramatically...back then it was almost unheard of for QBs to have under 10 INTs for an entire season, now it's commonplace. INTs were accepted far more back then they are now. In 1995, there were 512 INTs thrown versus 419 for 2018. That's almost 100 fewer. Credit this to more college concepts creating wide open receivers due to schemes a lot more. Surprisingly, there were more passes thrown per team in 1995 tho...556.6 passes per team versus 552.2 in 2018... Edited May 28, 2019 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) On 5/22/2019 at 9:13 AM, TaskersGhost said: The million-dollar question is can Allen play more like he did in week 17, amidst a whole lot of positive emotion and a perfect-storm of circumstance and environment, at home too we should add, or more like he did the rest of the season. If the former then he's destined for super-stardom. If the latter, well, not so much as he's a lot more likely to follow Rosen's path. It's "fun and all" that he ran around like a madman, but lost on just about everyone is that as a pure passer he was far from average much less even good. In fact, his week 17 stats, in the type of game that won't be on the schedule this season despite how easy the schedule is, massively skewed his total stats, which were bottom-dwelling. Prior to week 17 Allen and Rosen were neck-and-neck in vying for worst passer in the NFL. Priot to week 17 he had 7 TDs and 11 INTs. Had he finished the season w/o that last game the criticism would have been far more existent. For some perspective, Rosen finished with 11 TDs and 14 INTs in 13 starts to Allen's 11. As averages Rosen averaged .85 TDs/game and 1 INT/game in his 13 starts. Prior to that Miami game Allen averaged .64 TDs/game and 1 INT/game in his starts. Even on the season including that final Miami game Allen averaged .91 TDs/game and 1.09 INTs/game in all of his starts. Rosen was better in the red zone too throwing 7 RZ TDs contrasted with Allen's 4, only 2 of which were prior to week 17. Again tho, you've seen and understand his issues. How to correct those is another issue. QBs with residual defense-reading and checkdown issues from college A, typically aren't drafted in the 1st-round, and B, typically also don't excel in the NFL. The ones that excel did it well in college, and while they may have struggled initially, and some not, in the NFL, but at the end of the day they managed to translate it to the NFL. So while it shouldn't be written off, it's a much bigger issue than most care to admit. Obviously we're all hoping that it happens, but far too many people, fans and media alike, are assuming that it's a shoe-in when the opposite is the case, namely, that Allen will all but be charting unfamiliar territory if he manages to do so. Think about it, he's being expected to go from bottom-dwelling as a passer to average or better this season. That's an enormous expectation and quite frankly, I'm not sure a reasonable one. I don't think the vast majority of Bills fans assume it's a "shoe-in" that he will correct his issues. Nor is it, as you say, a shoe-in that the opposite is the case. In the final game against Miami, he did many of those things his detractors continually talk about him needing to do: took the higher percentage short route over the lower percentage deep throws (targets under 10 yds on 20 of his 26 attempts), was accurate on the vast majority of those throws, a 65% completion rate, 3 TDs, and a 114 rating. I find it interesting that you want to add caveats to that game explaining why factors other than his play might be responsible for the success he had - yet, you offered no such explanations for games in which he wasn't as successful as would have liked to have seen. Throughout your post you diminish what he did in week 17 and act as if it was a complete anomaly that should somehow be discarded, or have an asterisk placed next to it - and feel the need to subtract that game to talk about his play. The fact is, week 17 happened and Allen played well. When evaluating his season, you look at ALL the games. You don't remove the ones that don't help your argument. Some looked at week 17 as you do. Most fans, IMO, saw it as the final game of a continual improvement over the final six weeks of the season - and as evidence that he just might have what it takes to become the next franchise QB of the Bills. It's not called a "shoe-in," it's called hopeful - and it is based on an objective evaluation of Allen's play over the last six games of last year and the off season improvements around him. Edited May 28, 2019 by billsfan1959 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Thank God he’s not a strong-armed check down artist like Bledsoe. I like his aggressive approach to the game. We don’t need another disappointing statue at QB. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 On 5/22/2019 at 2:49 PM, Locomark said: I would rather us see 12 picks and 28 TDs than see 5 picks and 15 TDs. We need to play in the 2019 NFL if we want to be a true contender again...... Turnovers aren't going to help the Bills become true contenders. Josh has to make better decisions. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 46 minutes ago, Nanker said: Thank God he’s not a strong-armed check down artist like Bledsoe. I like his aggressive approach to the game. We don’t need another disappointing statue at QB. i would encourage he stand in there a little longer, i have 0% fear he will become a statue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 7/12 interceptions were in the division.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, matter2003 said: Surprisingly, there were more passes thrown per team in 1995 tho...556.6 passes per team versus 552.2 in 2018... Wow. Yeah I would not have expected that to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Wow. Yeah I would not have expected that to be the case. It was a statistical outlier tho...the years before and after were all well below 2018...in the 510-530's range on average... That being said, for as much as things have changed, I would have expected there to be more than a 2 passes per game variance...that doesn't seem like hardly anything...teams still run the ball a lot is the moral of the story I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 6:12 AM, Forward Progress said: Brett Favre has an unbreakable record for most career interceptions and I'm sure we'd be happy if Josh matched Favre's career. Totally disagree with the 'unbreakable record for most career int(s)' garbage. Until Nathan Peterman retires, that record IS obtainable. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Peace Frog said: Totally disagree with the 'unbreakable record for most career int(s)' garbage. Until Nathan Peterman retires, that record IS obtainable. Wow - that Favre record really is going to be unbreakable. Like Nolan Ryan's walk record. Also - Favre is the most sacked QB of all time. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_career.htm, and leads all QBs in fumbles - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fumbles_career.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 28 minutes ago, dneveu said: Wow - that Favre record really is going to be unbreakable. Like Nolan Ryan's walk record. Also - Favre is the most sacked QB of all time. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_career.htm, and leads all QBs in fumbles - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fumbles_career.htm or Reggie's strike out record. well worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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