does any team still use DE who mainly set edge?

[GunnerBill]

50 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

by Josh Alper on May 10, 2019, 3:06 PM EDT

 

Bills head coach Sean McDermott stuck to those talking points when asked about passing on the 2020 option on defensive end Shaq Lawson‘s contract.

 

“The critical piece is we’ve had communications with Shaq and we’re on the same page,” McDermott said, via the Buffalo News. “Doesn’t necessarily mean after this year we will go our separate ways. We like the work he’s put in.”

 

I think the Bills are open to bringing Shaq back - precisely because he does fit a role on this defense. It sounds as though they have communicated with his side that it is about finding where his value is and they have agreed to let 2019 play out. I still think it is more likely than not that Shaq is elsewhere next season but it isn't totally impossible that he is back. It really depends what kind of season he has. If Ed Oliver demolishing centers and guards pushes Quarterbacks into the waiting arms of Shaq Lawson sufficiently that he say doubles last season's sack total he is going to get a bigger FA contract than I think is sensible to pay. If he has a similar year to last year 4/5 sacks, a dozen or so QB hits, half a dozen passes defenses and another half a dozen tackles for loss then I can see the Bills offering him a deal in that $4m range to stay on. 

 

Regardless of whether it is Shaq or not the Bills will have a defensive end in their rotation in 2020 who is primarily an edge setter rather than a pass rusher. People are down on that guy being Shaq because it is not a difference making contribution you expect from a first round pick. That of course is true but it is a sunken cost at this stage. What the Bills will be doing after this season is looking at the value of Shaq in that role vs the value of bringing a guy in from outside. Price, age, continuity and scheme familiarity will all come into that consideration I expect. 

[Rochesterfan]

9 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

i do not hate Shaq in any way but we play a D that he does not fit. i think if Rex had been given his D Shaq would be considered much better. My question is whose D does he fit? also if he will come back for a reasonable contract i am for it but he will be rotational.

 

 

I disagree completely - He fits pretty much any 4-3 defense that has a good rush DE on the other side.  He is not athletic enough to play OLB, but may be able to play some DE in 3-4, but I think his current role is the best fit he has.

 

His job in this D is to keep plays (QB, RB, WR sweeps, etc) inside (setting the edge) and allowing the other guys to rush the passer.

 

I think the Bills coaching staff likes his attitude and that he is working hard, but they recognize that he is not a 10-12 million a year DE - he is a 4-7 million DE. 

 

It would not shock me that if he starts the season off making making a few plays, but not a bunch of sacks - if the team begins talks on an extension in the proper pay slot.  He has flexibility in playing DE and moving inside on passing downs giving more opportunity to speed DEs and he has taken the coaching to heart and worked to get better.

 

In reality he has become exactly the player I think most of us expected when he was drafted.  Even in college he did not show speed or power to get to the QB - he was always going to be a edge setting, run stuffing DE, but Rex just overvalued Clemson by a ton (much like the Raiders this year).  

Edited May 12, 2019 by Rochesterfan

[Orlando Tim]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree that we play a D he doesn't fit. I think he is actually a good fit in our D or any 4-3 under base defense as the 7 technique "big end". That means the guy who lines up on the strong side of the formation, typically in the gap between the tight end and offensive tackle. This guy is vital in stopping the run and must be able to keep lane discipline or else the integrity of the whole defensive scheme fails. Pretty much every 4-3 under base in the league - Seahawks, Panthers, Patriots, Chargers, Falcons, Cowboys etc would find use for a player like Shaq in exactly this role. 

 

What you are doing is mistaking a skill set limitation for a scheme fit issue. Shaq unfortunately has not developed as a pass rusher enough to be an all round defensive end who is able to play in alignments other than the 4-3 under base - like the wide nine - which is the Bills (and many other 4-3 base teams) go to alignment in obvious passing downs. When lined up wider in the 9 technique on 3rd and long Shaq doesn't have the burst to make enough plays that affect the Quarterback and so what you often saw last season was the Bills take him off the field in that scenario (Lorenzo was used on the line more etc).

 

That limits his value to an early downs defensive end who you only really want out there in your base defense. That said Shaq was more productive last year with 12 QB hits as well as his 4 sacks. If you want to speculate on what will happen next then I think Adrian Clayborn is a decent comparator. Was also drafted in the middle of the first by Tampa and while he was a little more productive in terms of sack numbers compared to playing time (he had 13 in his 4 years in Tampa and like Shaq had injury issues) he was essentially seen at the end of that as a 7 technique who you wouldn't really want out there on an obvious passing down. Atlanta signed him to a 3 year $12m contract after that and he was used as a rotational defensive end - as a 7 tech - on early downs and had limited sack production the first two years (7.5 over 2 years) before "breaking out" the third year with 9.5 (half of which came in one game against a terrible Dallas backup). He got a decent two year deal off New England after that but they realised after one they had overvalued him and he has gone back to Atlanta on a 1 year $2m dollar deal. 

 

So is Shaq's free agent market limited? Yes. But it is limited by skill set not scheme fit. He fits any of the 4-3 under base defenses that use a scheme like the one we do... including being a fit here. The limitation is he isn't a true 3 down player and so his value is probably capped at that $4m a year type mark. 

thanks for this- this is exactly what i was looking for in regards to demand. also you have clearly watched more NFL the paat few years than me and have much more knowledge of non Bills player and schemes. 

[Mickey]

Shaq has been in the league long enough to be thoroughly evaluated. It is unrealistic to think that he is suddenly going to learn new tricks that have eluded him for years. He is exactly what the tape shows he is, a decent run defender with below average pass rush skills. How much more writing has to be on the wall? The signing of Trent Murphy last year and passing on his extension this year tell you all you need to know about how the Bills feel about Shaq. Absent a very much unexpected metamorphosis in his play next year, he is destined to play a rotational role with a salary commensurate to that position. Maybe that will be with us, maybe not. Neither his presence nor his absence is a critical issue for this team moving forward. 

[JoPar_v2]

9 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

Do you not see that these kind of statements are equally "stupid at this point"?

 

The guy was a miss and just improving isn't enough.  I'm not saying hate the guy and wish bad things on him - but strictly as a football matter - he's a massive disappointment.  

 

I'd like to have a rational football discussion with you as someone who is in opposition to you on Shaq as a player.  

 

Value is a huge factor in winning.  It's critical that some players perform at a much higher level than their pay.   

 

For example Tre White.  He's been a shut down corner and it's allowed us to allocate resources to other positions.  When we have to pay him - then you no longer benefit from him being good because you're paying him to be.  The best he can do is equal his pay and due to injuries and other things - this rarely happens when players are at the top of their pay scale.  It's for this reason that you need players like Shaq to perform and when they don't it sets your team back.  

 

He's not going to be someone we cry about and regret because if he does get the 6 million a year - even if he gets better and better, he's no longer value for the play.  

 

I am not saying he’s not a miss. All I am saying is he’s improving. You say that’s not enough. That’s fair; he was a 1st round pick and hasn’t lived up to it. I judge Shaq’s improvement in a different light maybe - I think he can be a very good disrupter on the D line without ever putting up the pressure numbers a 1st rd DE might be expected to put up.

 

idk, i just see a lot of improvement under McDermott. I dont want talent walking out the door while still attached to a steroid case like Murphy.

Edited May 12, 2019 by JoPar_v2

[JoPar_v2]

8 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I do not see how this is a "hater thread" -he has a skill set that does not match our D and I do not see many players of his skill set in demand. He is not terrible but he is like a back to basket center in NBA today, not in demand.

 

There are a lot of haters in this thread and about 100 others about Shaq. Maybe people in this one are hiding their hate more than usual but trust it still remains.

 

the kid has performed wayyyy better under this regime as opposed to rex so not sure what you’re talking about. McD’s heavy rotation on the D line helps Shaq, it helps everyone currently playing D line on this team including players like Phillips who get a pass around here; I wonder why...

[IgotBILLStopay]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree that we play a D he doesn't fit. I think he is actually a good fit in our D or any 4-3 under base defense as the 7 technique "big end". That means the guy who lines up on the strong side of the formation, typically in the gap between the tight end and offensive tackle. This guy is vital in stopping the run and must be able to keep lane discipline or else the integrity of the whole defensive scheme fails. Pretty much every 4-3 under base in the league - Seahawks, Panthers, Patriots, Chargers, Falcons, Cowboys etc would find use for a player like Shaq in exactly this role. 

 

What you are doing is mistaking a skill set limitation for a scheme fit issue. Shaq unfortunately has not developed as a pass rusher enough to be an all round defensive end who is able to play in alignments other than the 4-3 under base - like the wide nine - which is the Bills (and many other 4-3 base teams) go to alignment in obvious passing downs. When lined up wider in the 9 technique on 3rd and long Shaq doesn't have the burst to make enough plays that affect the Quarterback and so what you often saw last season was the Bills take him off the field in that scenario (Lorenzo was used on the line more etc).

 

That limits his value to an early downs defensive end who you only really want out there in your base defense. That said Shaq was more productive last year with 12 QB hits as well as his 4 sacks. If you want to speculate on what will happen next then I think Adrian Clayborn is a decent comparator. Was also drafted in the middle of the first by Tampa and while he was a little more productive in terms of sack numbers compared to playing time (he had 13 in his 4 years in Tampa and like Shaq had injury issues) he was essentially seen at the end of that as a 7 technique who you wouldn't really want out there on an obvious passing down. Atlanta signed him to a 3 year $12m contract after that and he was used as a rotational defensive end - as a 7 tech - on early downs and had limited sack production the first two years (7.5 over 2 years) before "breaking out" the third year with 9.5 (half of which came in one game against a terrible Dallas backup). He got a decent two year deal off New England after that but they realised after one they had overvalued him and he has gone back to Atlanta on a 1 year $2m dollar deal. 

 

So is Shaq's free agent market limited? Yes. But it is limited by skill set not scheme fit. He fits any of the 4-3 under base defenses that use a scheme like the one we do... including being a fit here. The limitation is he isn't a true 3 down player and so his value is probably capped at that $4m a year type mark. 

 

There are some things the young man does do well.

 

 

Funnily enough, his limitations come from not having the initial athleticism and power to win a few one-on-one battles every game (which was thought to be his strength pre-draft) and has nothing to do with his shoulder which kept him off the field as a rookie. That said he does play a role and appears to be improving. He will b e well motivated - this being his contract year. So I am cautiously optimistic.

 

Another important point: Ed Oliver will complement him perfectly since he has that twitch that Lawson lacks.

[Rocket94]

I like Lawson and even if he cannot set the edge, his game will probably improve this year...motivated by his contract year. The Bills still need to address the DE position with an impact player...the Bills are not the only team improving. Now...when and where do we find this guy?

Edited May 12, 2019 by Rocket94

[Just Joshin']

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree that we play a D he doesn't fit. I think he is actually a good fit in our D or any 4-3 under base defense as the 7 technique "big end". That means the guy who lines up on the strong side of the formation, typically in the gap between the tight end and offensive tackle. This guy is vital in stopping the run and must be able to keep lane discipline or else the integrity of the whole defensive scheme fails. Pretty much every 4-3 under base in the league - Seahawks, Panthers, Patriots, Chargers, Falcons, Cowboys etc would find use for a player like Shaq in exactly this role. 

 

What you are doing is mistaking a skill set limitation for a scheme fit issue. Shaq unfortunately has not developed as a pass rusher enough to be an all round defensive end who is able to play in alignments other than the 4-3 under base - like the wide nine - which is the Bills (and many other 4-3 base teams) go to alignment in obvious passing downs. When lined up wider in the 9 technique on 3rd and long Shaq doesn't have the burst to make enough plays that affect the Quarterback and so what you often saw last season was the Bills take him off the field in that scenario (Lorenzo was used on the line more etc).

 

That limits his value to an early downs defensive end who you only really want out there in your base defense. That said Shaq was more productive last year with 12 QB hits as well as his 4 sacks. If you want to speculate on what will happen next then I think Adrian Clayborn is a decent comparator. Was also drafted in the middle of the first by Tampa and while he was a little more productive in terms of sack numbers compared to playing time (he had 13 in his 4 years in Tampa and like Shaq had injury issues) he was essentially seen at the end of that as a 7 technique who you wouldn't really want out there on an obvious passing down. Atlanta signed him to a 3 year $12m contract after that and he was used as a rotational defensive end - as a 7 tech - on early downs and had limited sack production the first two years (7.5 over 2 years) before "breaking out" the third year with 9.5 (half of which came in one game against a terrible Dallas backup). He got a decent two year deal off New England after that but they realised after one they had overvalued him and he has gone back to Atlanta on a 1 year $2m dollar deal. 

 

So is Shaq's free agent market limited? Yes. But it is limited by skill set not scheme fit. He fits any of the 4-3 under base defenses that use a scheme like the one we do... including being a fit here. The limitation is he isn't a true 3 down player and so his value is probably capped at that $4m a year type mark. 

Excellent post and spot on.

[MJS]

Well Jerry Hughes was pretty much a failure before we traded for him. Players can get better and they can thrive in certain systems.

 

And Shaq will always have a job as a rotational defensive end.

[CuddyDark]

15 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I realize that Shaq Lawson is not likely here for any longer than this season but where will he go? i do not see teams who want him, at least not for more money comparable to what he gets this year. 

Yeah most teams. NE. Sea. Atl. NO. Car. LAc. LAr. KC. NYg. NYj. Balt. Hou. Jac. Ten.

[Da webster guy]

14 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

So many Lawson haters.. Lot of teams would love to have a player like Shaq. 

It’s still completely possible he learns a move or two and gets better rushes on the quarterback. But he’s showing a really impressive knack for batting down balls at the line which is valuable as well. 

I would imagine any 4-3 team in the league would take him for the right price. He’s not a 100 million guy and that’s ok. Not his fault he was picked high and hasn’t lived up to his draft position. If he has a breakout year this season he’ll get a giant payday next offseason 

Batting down balls for sure, and a few times he changed passes enough to cause incompletions.   Shaq is a smart player, feels screens pretty well,  can hold his ground on run blockers etc.   He just got overdrafted and then injured, both of those things can nag a player forever.

 

Here comes his chance to step into the light.  Contract year, he knows the system, will be in a rotation that keeps him fresh.  We might see Trent Murphy and Shaq both having productive seasons.  

[Rocket94]

6 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:

Batting down balls for sure, and a few times he changed passes enough to cause incompletions.   Shaq is a smart player, feels screens pretty well,  can hold his ground on run blockers etc.   He just got overdrafted and then injured, both of those things can nag a player forever.

 

Here comes his chance to step into the light.  Contract year, he knows the system, will be in a rotation that keeps him fresh.  We might see Trent Murphy and Shaq both having productive seasons.  

Excellent observation. I don't know about Murphy though.

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Does any team still use DE who mainly set edge?

 

 

Base 3-4 defences are still pretty common: Packers, Rams, Steelers, Ravens, Giants, Washington, Bears ....

 

You can look at Nichols and Bullard on the Bears for instance. Lawson isn't as big as most 3-4 DEs, of course. 

 

I don't think Lawson, nor anyone else, really, just sets the edge on passing plays. But there are plenty of guys out there who aren't gifted pass rushers but still have long careers at DE.

 

Shaq's rookie contract was four years for $10.2 mill. At that rate, he's the 49th highest paid DE in terms of average salary. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get a contract around there again, perhaps even a bit higher.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Rocket94]

50 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Yeah most teams. NE. Sea. Atl. NO. Car. LAc. LAr. KC. NYg. NYj. Balt. Hou. Jac. Ten.

Lawson will definately find a home. There may be teams already monitoring the situation.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I do not see how this is a "hater thread" -he has a skill set that does not match our D and I do not see many players of his skill set in demand. He is not terrible but he is like a back to basket center in NBA today, not in demand.

 

 

I disagree, personally. His skill set matches our D, and most. We just would really appreciate an upgrade.

[richardb1952]

The 5th year option for Shaq is worth 9.45 million.  He is not worth that.  He is a good DE that has gotten better each year. There is no reason for the Bills to take on a fifth year option, even if it is guaranteed for injury only.  I billieve the Bills want to see continued improvement and will look to re-sign him to a multi-year contract if, in fact, he continues to improve.  I like Shaq and have seen the improvement.  I think he will be back as a Bill.

Edited May 12, 2019 by richardb1952

[akcash]

I made a living off it in hs

[Steve Billieve]

Wait! this is a Shaq Lawson thread?

[Augie]

5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

by Josh Alper on May 10, 2019, 3:06 PM EDT

 

Bills head coach Sean McDermott stuck to those talking points when asked about passing on the 2020 option on defensive end Shaq Lawson‘s contract.

 

“The critical piece is we’ve had communications with Shaq and we’re on the same page,” McDermott said, via the Buffalo News. “Doesn’t necessarily mean after this year we will go our separate ways. We like the work he’s put in.”

He might never live up to his draft position (thanks, Rex!), but it’s not like the guy can’t play at all. I’d love him back at the right price.