Delete This Account Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 For what it’s worth, the closest the Bills previously came to ending the drought, and in its early stages, was under Donahue, who followed the same path. He purged a number of high-prices players and veterans and built through youth before complimenting roster with free agents. It took him four seasons to get close: 2004. jw Just now, vincec said: I'm not sure how you can seriously argue that going with Peterman as your starting QB and having no backup plan behind him was not a major mistake. They completely botched the most critical position on the field. And bringing in CJ Anderson is not a real backup plan unless your backup plan is to try and get the #1 overall pick. they didn’t bring in CJ Anderson. jw 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, john wawrow said: For what it’s worth, the closest the Bills previously came to ending the drought, and in its early stages, was under Donahue, who followed the same path. He purged a number of high-prices players and veterans and built through youth before complimenting roster with free agents. It took him four seasons to get close: 2004. jw they didn’t bring in CJ Anderson. jw That would have been even worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Just now, vincec said: That would have been even worse! Just now, vincec said: That would have been even worse! well you said they did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 5 hours ago, jeremy2020 said: I read a lot of AFC East forums and there's some...familiarity with certain posters on this board from other forums. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the folks who are in the "Every single move the Bills make is the wrong one" crowd aren't actually Bills fans.. They are likely anti-fans, they were fans and then discovered it was easier to going along with the bashing and predicting of failures but failed to realize they are no longer fans. Some ARE blatant trolls but have mods as friends and a mod will give you warning points despite same comments being given to non-trolls will not get your points. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 On 4/27/2019 at 6:38 AM, BillyWhiteShows said: Take this for what you will. Probably one of the most reliable, informed, and well-connected Bills reporters has great things to say about what Beane and McDermott have done over the past 3 years. I agree with all of this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Good stuff JW. Thanks for sharing! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 On 4/27/2019 at 12:02 PM, Shaw66 said: That's a really insightful commentary. I hadn't thought about the Allen angle - acquire a legitimate franchise qb prospect without mortgaging the future. I think Beane is one talented dude. This thread is very entertaining. John wins this debate hands down - Beane and McDermott have done a pretty good so far. Give them credit?????? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 hours ago, john wawrow said: Is it overstated? Let's review. The Bills made the foolish mistake of drafting EJ Manuel, which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop. If that wasn't bad enough, the Bills then doubled down on their mistake the following year by giving up a first-round draft pick to select Sammy Watkins to prop up a quarterback who wasn't going to succeed, thus mortgaging yet another year, and possibly two, of building the team. Add in a few more ill-conceived contracts and a bad coaching hire in Rex, and It's taken six years to finally get out of that hole. It's a dirty little secret only if you don't compound one mistake with another and another. And that's what happened. jw Here's a nugget: What if AJ wanted out because he was unhappy he got hurt and wasn't awarded the starting job. The Bills weren't going to win the opener with either three of the quarterbacks. The only mistake made, which Beane has fessed up to, is he should've brought in Anderson the minute he traded McCarron. Lesson learned. Move on. jw Overall, this regime has done a terrific job in remaking the roster and rebalancing the cap in relatively short order. It took a lot of fortitude to absorb a bulk cap hit last year in order to become unfettered the next year. Our ability to bring in numerous players to reconstruct this OL from free agency and also from the draft (Ford) was impressive. Any organization that does such a major remake in a short period of time is going to make a lot of tough decisions with not all of them working out. In hindsight, the biggest mistake, if not blunder, was not drafting Mahomes or Watson when we had the opportunity to do so. If either one of those two qbs would have been selected in the prior year then there would have been no need to maneuver to select Josh Allen the next year. We then could have saved some draft picks that could have been used to address other needs instead of using them to get in position to draft our franchise qb the following year. I understand why McDermott was reluctant to draft a qb that Whaley and his scouting department evaluated. McDermott was new to his position and he didn't have his people in place yet. Although I give him and Beane high marks for their work I still believe that not getting a franchise qb that first year was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills1212 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) On 4/27/2019 at 6:38 AM, BillyWhiteShows said: Take this for what you will. Probably one of the most reliable, informed, and well-connected Bills reporters has great things to say about what Beane and McDermott have done over the past 3 years. Man... i had NO idea you were such a rep point whorse Edited May 1, 2019 by gobills1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 2 hours ago, john wawrow said: 1: The Bills weren't going to make the playoffs one way or another last year. They knew it. Most discerning Bills fans new it. It was a "wasted year" only because of the decision to go with a very young roster and a patchwork lineup, while getting out from the under the salary cap rock the team inherited. Thus then puts the onus on Allen to show signs of improving, and from everything I saw from last year, he's ahead of EJ Manuel in that department. He's a better, more athletic quarterback. Not saying he's great or good yet. He's better than Manuel. 2. All I'm saying is the selection of EJ Manuel was a bust from the beginning and Nix should never have painted the team into that corner in the first place. By many accounts, Allen's performance last year was better than that of some of the other first-rounders taken. 3. You seem hellbent on proving your little notion that things can be turned around swiftly. How about we provide some examples of that. The St. Louis/LA Rams were world beaters for so long under Jeff Fisher. The Oakland Raiders have made leaps and bounds under all the people they've had coaching them, plus DEREK CARR! Cleveland. 4. The decision to trade up 5 spots to draft Sammy Watkins was questioned when it happened, and continues to be second-guessed by just about everybody. It was no different than Donahoe, unhappy over losing out on Roethlisberger, to trade back into the first round and draft JP Losman on what was essentially an egotistical whim. That move set the franchise back for four years. But you clearly have all the answers, and there's nothing I could say to change your mind. So let's leave it with me wishing I could agree with you, but knowing I can't because that would make both of us wrong. jw Dude, you aren't even making sense. 1. Completely irrelevant. 2. The corner of what? Needing to draft a QB in the first because there wasn't one on the roster? Like uh, Beane and McD did last year? 3. Of course they can. We watched the Eagles go from 10-6 HC fired, new HC, trade up to #2 for QB (mortgaging the future), 7-9 to 13-3 and a Superbowl win. Are you contending that they shouldn't have traded up for Wentz? Or does it really not matter? 4. This is where you cross over into outright delusion. Do you know why? Because no one second-guesses the Watkins trade anymore because it was 5 freaking years ago. Everybody cried about "we lost a first round pick," but we've picked in the first round 3 times since then. Still not sure if we have a QB or not. So what did it set back, really? How set back are the Eagles, or the Rams? The Watkins move didn't set back *****. You think if we didn't do it, we'd draft Petty and be winners. That's ridiculous. I don't have all the answers, but I know when 2+2 doesn't equal 5. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: This has been discussed here a million times.... they didn't inherit a salary cap mess. Did they have loads of cap to spend? Absolutely not. But were they buried over the cap? Not even close. In fact after releasing a couple veteran duds they found enough cap space to sign Jordan Poyer and Hyde McDermotts first offseason here while letting Goodwin and Woods walk. The Saints have been salary cap restricted for YEARS. They find a way without gutting their team. Not saying these guys are no better then the previous guys before them, but they've had their fair share of ***** ups in managing the team and I'll reserve my high praises until they actually start winning games..... considering we've been down this road with the franchise for a couple decades now. And he failed miserably.? It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around. What you forget to mention is that the Bills made the playoffs in the first year of McDermott's tenure. That was the first time in a generation in his first year on the job. Even though the roster was being turned over this team was competitive. Edited May 1, 2019 by JohnC additions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reader Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: Dude, you aren't even making sense. 1. Completely irrelevant. 2. The corner of what? Needing to draft a QB in the first because there wasn't one on the roster? Like uh, Beane and McD did last year? 3. Of course they can. We watched the Eagles go from 10-6 HC fired, new HC, trade up to #2 for QB (mortgaging the future), 7-9 to 13-3 and a Superbowl win. Are you contending that they shouldn't have traded up for Wentz? Or does it really not matter? 4. This is where you cross over into outright delusion. Do you know why? Because no one second-guesses the Watkins trade anymore because it was 5 freaking years ago. Everybody cried about "we lost a first round pick," but we've picked in the first round 3 times since then. Still not sure if we have a QB or not. So what did it set back, really? How set back are the Eagles, or the Rams? The Watkins move didn't set back *****. You think if we didn't do it, we'd draft Petty and be winners. That's ridiculous. I don't have all the answers, but I know when 2+2 doesn't equal 5. I think what the difference between Whaley/Rex/Marrone vs Beane/McDermott is the hope that with the later, any mistake will be owned and adjusted sooner rather than stories of a pissing contest between a coach during training camp with the GM daring the GM to fire him because the QB is so bad. I think for your point earlier, you are absolutely correct in that the way Whaley handled EJ and Beane with Allen through the draft are practically one and the same. It could be argued that Whaley did a better job as he managed to trade down and acquire two NFL caliber receivers for EJ. Although, I can't remember if that was the year we signed that G from the Rams who was terrible, where our plan was for him to be less terrible. I think it is this draft that JW is saying distinguishes Beane from Whaley as he is building a core of solid players that ideally won't weigh us down if Allen doesn't work out and not sacrificing draft picks in the future. With Whaley we were lucky that Tyrod, an unknown at the time, happened to be more competent than Cassell and EJ. I don't know about you, but I think our current QB group is better though perhaps by not as much as I'd want it to be. I think with Beane's acquisition of free agents who are solid this year, that we could have a system of gaining comp picks starting next free agency and the blueprint seems better for sustained success. Obviously it all depends on Allen. No one will care what we traded for him (same as Wentz and Goff) if he pans out. Otherwise, we'll lament the trade similar to the Cardinals for Rosen or Redskins for RG3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 On 4/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, BuffaloBill said: The truth will come from the W-L record but man does Wawrow seem to be right. It's also possible to completely separate McBeane's team-building process (pardon my use of the term) from the on-field results; we can evaluate roster decisions independent of how they ultimately pan out. That probably is an unpopular take, but players and teams ultimately succeed and fail for myriad reasons, and management can only make decisions based on the information available at any given time. I think we can say, right now, that the decisions made in building the roster back up (after a moderate tear-down that can be viewed more than one way), have been well-conceived and well-executed. I'm pretty sure that's JW's point, and I completely agree. Whether it results in winning football over the short- and longer-terms will be the result of so many factors, many of which are not fully under McBeane's control. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: This thread is very entertaining. John wins this debate hands down - Beane and McDermott have done a pretty good so far. Give them credit?????? I say this in all sincerity - I hope you're right. Because what's relevant is whether the choices that Beane and McDermott make put the franchise on the winning track. Not who's "right" on a message board. And only time will tell. I think they've done some good things. I think they've done some questionable things, mostly around supporting their precious high-first-round rookie with vet QB mentorship, a decent OL and skill players. John seems to be taking the position that their poor little paddi-whacks were just all tied up by the thumbs, they couldn't do a thing else or more, and anyone who questions must just be a dumbass who don't follow football. Cap, roster and FA geeks can make a pretty clear case well actually, they could have done some things differently. Whether that hurts us or not, remains to be seen. The bottom line is, if we're winning more than losing next year and competitive/exciting when we lose, no one will GAD. It'll all be good! One thing I like is that Beane and McDermott seem willing to ack and correct mistakes, so that part is good. Another thing I like is that we have a respected and knowledgeable media pundit being positive about the team's leadership and direction. After years of having the local media throw out a warning flag about remaining in "dysfunction junction" even when we fans were trying to be all warm and fuzzy positive, that is refreshing to hear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPar_v2 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 hours ago, ScottLaw said: It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around. Well, depends on how F’d up the franchise is when you take it over, doesn’t chief? Seems like you’re making false equivalencies just to try to prove your point. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 4 hours ago, ScottLaw said: This has been discussed here a million times.... they didn't inherit a salary cap mess. Did they have loads of cap to spend? Absolutely not. But were they buried over the cap? Not even close. In fact after releasing a couple veteran duds they found enough cap space to sign Jordan Poyer and Hyde McDermotts first offseason here while letting Goodwin and Woods walk. The Saints have been salary cap restricted for YEARS. They find a way without gutting their team. Not saying these guys are no better then the previous guys before them, but they've had their fair share of ***** ups in managing the team and I'll reserve my high praises until they actually start winning games..... considering we've been down this road with the franchise for a couple decades now. And he failed miserably.? It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around. It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation. Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points. Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep. I’ll patiently await your illogical response. jw 2 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 14 minutes ago, john wawrow said: It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation. Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points. Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep. I’ll patiently await your illogical response. jw jw, don’t waste your time with ScottLaw. He’s one of a number of posters who don’t think it’s relevant to look at how Beane and McD are reshaping the organization, and will only grudgingly give credit when a Lombardi is hoisted by Terry Pegula. And even then, that “happiness” will be accompanied by some criticism that the victory “could have been more convincing.” What we’re basically talking about here is the loss of one year by McD not drafting the QB in 2017. Amazing some are so upset about that. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Limeaid said: They are likely anti-fans, they were fans and then discovered it was easier to going along with the bashing and predicting of failures but failed to realize they are no longer fans. Some ARE blatant trolls but have mods as friends and a mod will give you warning points despite same comments being given to non-trolls will not get your points. You and the 2 posters who like this post have a combined 19 warnings, with you the lead dog. And that’s just with these monikers, right Phil the ill? But I think you make a good point. Screw warning anti-fans. As you clearly represent, Warning obviously does no good. The beheadings shall begin at midnight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 On 4/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, BuffaloBill said: The truth will come from the W-L record but man does Wawrow seem to be right. I can’t remember an offseason where there has been so much momentum going into the season. The Bills had a tough year last year but emerged from it with Josh Allen taking steps forward. With the exception of a true #1 WR on the roster they have addressed gaps and in many cases with more than one potential starter. WR aside, as I think they will get production out of the group they have, the only real question remaining after last season is will special teams improve? The Bills were flat out awful at ST’s last season. The flip side of this is that the D returns nearly intact and should only be better with Oliver at the 3T. This D has the potential to be scary good. Warrow can be negative (usually for good reasons) so getting praise from him is noteworthy. On 4/27/2019 at 7:18 AM, Aireskoi said: There are real football guys running the team now. I'm all in with Beane and McDermott. now about those Sabres (Did we hire a coach yet ? ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeSomeProcess Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 4 hours ago, john wawrow said: It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation. Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points. Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep. I’ll patiently await your illogical response. jw JW keep it coming man, love your contributions in here. This stuff is excellent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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