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Oliver and Hockenson, do the Bills have enough


bigbill

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9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

There were some pretty detailed articles that popped right up. Mayday be fabricated. Lying about weights was likely pretty common 25 years ago. But yea pretty specific in the weights listed.

Like this one that was written in the spring of 2007? It states that he just lost 50lbs from 334 to 285? 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2862119

 

Then pair it with his stats for the year and you see that he only had 2 sacks that season. Which was also his final season 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SappWa00.htm

 

His best seasons were played with much more weight in his frame. 

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Just now, mrags said:

Like this one that was written in the spring of 2007? It states that he just lost 50lbs from 334 to 285? 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2862119

 

Then pair it with his stats for the year and you see that he only had 2 sacks that season. Which was also his final season 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SappWa00.htm

 

His best seasons were played with much more weight in his frame. 

 

BTW your concern is a real one and one that prevents him from being labeled as the top player in the draft.

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8 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

BTW your concern is a real one and one that prevents him from being labeled as the top player in the draft.

I know that. I know there’s a few people that share this opinion with me. But I just don’t understand why there’s so many that think this kid is the 2nd coming of Reggie White. 

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Just now, mrags said:

I know that. I know there’s a few people that share this opinion with me. But I just don’t understand why there’s so many that think this kid is the 2nd coming of Reggie White. 

 

OH, he’s NOT that! Reggie was greatness. This guy could be a quick penetrator, a disruptor. He’s a freak athlete. Quicker than RB’s at combine? The game is going to the quick because of the rules. 

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33 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

Drops WAY too many balls to be taken seriously in the first.  I like the kid, but late 2nd-Early third is where I'll leave him.

 

MANY legit draft analysts mocked him in the 1st round including Peter King.  So yes, I took him seriously. 

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28 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

OH, he’s NOT that! Reggie was greatness. This guy could be a quick penetrator, a disruptor. He’s a freak athlete. Quicker than RB’s at combine? The game is going to the quick because of the rules. 

You know who else was quick? Aaron Maybin 

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1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

You are ok with waiting 2-4 years for your TE to develop and contribute more than 40 catches and 500 yards?

 

This is the level of production you can expect with your first rd pick:

 

image.thumb.png.37655f039a2c75b8f1670be60dd6469e.png

Nothing in those stats would have something to do with going from Tyrod to Josh?

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2 hours ago, mrags said:

Its hard to go back and find what his playing weight was. I’ve seen a link ow that says he’s 300 at the age of 46ish.  

 

Googling his playing weight I’ve seen reports that he weighed up to 340ish at one point but lost close to 50lbs. 

 

To my eyes, just looking at them, it’s not close. Sapp was far larger and it’s not close. 

 

 

Sapp sometimes was far larger, as he did have a problem with getting fat. But when he was at his best he was not all that big a guy.

 

Here's another story of him playing at 315 while fat and having a poor year for sacks and then reporting the next year "in the high 280s.". Except unlike your story, this wasn't when Sapp was near the end of his career with the Raiders, it was between his fourth and fifth years in Tampa, well before the Super Bowl win.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-08-07-9908070161-story.html

 

The thing that made Sapp exceptional was his extreme quickness. Yeah, he was strong too, but it was his speed that made him frightening.

 

At the combine, he weighed in at 281, and even that light had a BMI of 37.97.  30 and over is obese, and yeah, most interior linemen would qualify, but even at 281 he was no sylph.

 

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Warren&l=Sapp&i=23696

 

Just went back and looked at the video of the Super Bowl win, and he's just not as big as your fat photos up there. He's still got a belly, but not the size of the photos higher up on this page.

 

 

 

In any case, there are guys who've played very well on the interior at lower weights. Jay Ratliff is a good example, and he played nose tackle. Most of those lighter players are exactly Oliver's type, penetrators. And Oliver has been terrific against the run even at his weight.

Edited by Thurman#1
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38 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

MANY legit draft analysts mocked him in the 1st round including Peter King. 

 

I wouldn't give a damn if they did...  I saw some of those drops, and they were bad... Game-killers at times.... Can't have a butter-fingered TE. -Sorry.

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3 hours ago, HuSeYiN_NYC said:

I actually think it's very possible if two things happen.

 

1. Teams picking ahead of us go for at least one QB but two would be better.

 

2. Ed Oliver is there at #9 without us trading up.

 

If we stay put and Oliver is there at 9, you get Oliver and then we have more than enough resources to move back in the 1st to get Hock but it'll cost alot...

 

This draft is crazy. So much talent and I don't even scout college players the way most of you guys do. I just can tell it's loaded with talent from the little bit of research I've done. Which is why a dream scenario for me would be to trade down ONLY if Oliver is gone by #9 to anywhere between the 12th and 17th pick and pick up another 2nd and a 4th for this year (I believe moving from 9th to 17th will get us a 1st for next year also but I'm not sure).

Then we could bundle one of our 2nd round picks with our 3rd and a 5th to move back into the 1st. That way we have two 1st round picks AND a second round pick... 

 

 

 

Yeah, it's easily possible Oliver is there at #9. Could also go the other way, though. If he's there, I think they pop a few champagne corks and grab him.

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5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Sapp sometimes was far larger, as he did have a problem with getting fat. But when he was at his best he was not all that big a guy.

 

Here's another story of him playing at 315 while fat and having a poor year for sacks and then reporting the next year "in the high 280s.". Except unlike your story, this wasn't when Sapp was near the end of his career with the Raiders, it was between his fourth and fifth years in Tampa, well before the Super Bowl win.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-08-07-9908070161-story.html

 

The thing that made Sapp exceptional was his extreme quickness. Yeah, he was strong too, but it was his speed that made him frightening.

 

At the combine, he weighed in at 281, and even that light had a BMI of 37.97.  30 and over is obese, and yeah, most interior linemen would qualify, but even at 281 he was no sylph.

 

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Warren&l=Sapp&i=23696

 

Just went back and looked at the video of the Super Bowl win, and he's just not as big as your fat photos up there. He's still got a belly, but not the size of the photos higher up on this page.

 

 

 

In any case, there are guys who've played very well on the interior at lower weights. Jay Ratliff is a good example, and he played nose tackle. Most of those lighter players are exactly Oliver's type, penetrators. And Oliver has been terrific against the run even at his weight.

The fact that people are saying Oliver is comparable to Sapp is comical. The guys a Hall of Famer. Even if his weight fluctuated. Just like Donald, he’s an exception, not the rule. 

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10 minutes ago, mrags said:

The fact that people are saying Oliver is comparable to Sapp is comical. The guys a Hall of Famer. Even if his weight fluctuated. Just like Donald, he’s an exception, not the rule. 

 

 

Of course Oliver is comparable to Sapp. In hundreds of ways. Both have two arms, for a start. Both are male. But nobody said that Oliver has shown himself to be as good as Sapp was. That's nonsense. The comparisons have all been very reasonable. They are essentially pointed at the people saying you can't play interior D-line at that weight. Which is absolute nonsense, and Sapp is one of the names that should be mentioned to disprove that nonsense.

 

Fair enough that Donald, Sapp and Jay Ratliff among others are exceptions to the rule. But Oliver is an exception too. Guy played fricking nose tackle at that low weight and kicked butt.

Edited by Thurman#1
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8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Seems their stock has gone up in the last month so it's possible neither will be available at 9.  Unless you get a QB rush, Oliver should be gone by then.

 

Up, and Down, etc., etc.

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9 hours ago, TOboy said:

Only way to do it would be Oliver at 9 I guess and trade back up to the teens for Hock, which likely costs next years 1st.

This would be the most likely scenario. Compensation would be fairly steep though I don't think it would cost next year's 1st. Wouldn't mind Oliver and Fant either which may be more doable.

Edited by billsbackto81
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9 hours ago, Augie said:

Why not take him if he fell to #9? 

 

.....here is Bleacher Report's Tanier pick at #9.....yes?...no?...maybe?........

 

So, let's skip the usual roasting of the Bills and give them Jawaan Taylor, who's arguably the best offensive lineman in this class (there's no real consensus) and a fit for their run-heavy offense. The Bills added Ty Nsekhe and LaAdrian Waddle in free agency, but both are better stopgap starters and multiposition backups than long-term solutions at tackle. 

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25 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.....here is Bleacher Report's Tanier pick at #9.....yes?...no?...maybe?........

 

So, let's skip the usual roasting of the Bills and give them Jawaan Taylor, who's arguably the best offensive lineman in this class (there's no real consensus) and a fit for their run-heavy offense. The Bills added Ty Nsekhe and LaAdrian Waddle in free agency, but both are better stopgap starters and multiposition backups than long-term solutions at tackle. 

There seems to be a bit of quality in the 3, 4 ,  5rounds in offensive linemen and tight ends.   Get impact players, DT LB in the early rounds and get high ceiling O-lne/TE in the later rounds.  Let those o-linemen sit for a year or two and learn how to play the pro game and then ease them into the o-line.  Teamwork and experience is what makes a o line.

 

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1 minute ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

There seems to be a bit of quality in the 3, 4 ,  5rounds in offensive linemen and tight ends.   Get impact players, DT LB in the early rounds and get high ceiling O-lne/TE in the later rounds.  Let those o-linemen sit for a year or two and learn how to play the pro game and then ease them into the o-line.  Teamwork and experience is what makes a o line.

 

 

...nice assessment and I agree....plenty of FA work has happened for OL......so DT/LB/Edge makes sense early......thanks...:thumbsup:

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9 hours ago, bigbill said:

I was just wondering if the Bills have enough draft capital to get both Oliver and Hockenson in the draft?

 

Who would you take at 9 with hopes the other player drops to 15, 16 or 17.

 

It seems both players would help to complete the offense and defense.

 

Any thought?

 

Obviously they would both need to be there at #9.  Bills would have to trade back just a couple spots, probably Cincinnati to #11 and pick one of them.  They would likely get a 3rd for that move.  Assuming we don't want to give up any 1st's next year.  We would have to trade #40 and both of our 3rds (and possibly something else) to get back into low teens.  Miami could be a possibility at #13 as it allows them to stockpile picks for lots of needs and their tanking

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I heard one FO type on the NFL channel talking with Gil and Alex.  The guy said that if a OL isn't a top 50 player in the draft don't waste a pick.  Because except for the elite guys, there are great options in FA and on other teams practice squads.  These OL just need to be sorted out as to who can grow into and adpt in the pro game.

 

But I think the Bills are going DL in Round 1.  The way I read the tea leaves is that they will target the Tytus guy from Alabama State or the small school Carolina guy in the 2/3 round and let them learn and grow behind these experienced guys that they signed this off season.  I think that might be the plan.  

 

I see Christian Wilkins in Round 1.  Has "process" written all over him and with Oliver gone and the questions with Gary I see Wilkins.  

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