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The reality of what Beane is creating with the OL.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

In that first game against the Ravens 47-3 blowout, Out of 33 passes attempted 10 went deep with that craptastic Bills offensive line.

Peterman went 5 of 18 for 24 yards, 2 INT, 3 sacks a 0.0 rating, Allen went 6 of 15 for 74, 3 sacks a 65.0 rating. Benjamin was targeted 7 times and caught one pass. Jones was targeted 6 times and caught 3. Bills QBs sacked 6 times.

 

Against the Chargers Allen went 18 of 33 for 245, 1 TD, 2 INT, 5 sacks. 10 deep passes called out of 33 which is almost one third. Bosa wasn't even playing for the Chargers.

Against the Vikings Allen went 15 of 22 for 196 yards,1 TD. Only 5 deep passes called A WIN!

Against the Packers Allen went 16 of 33 for 151 yards, 2 INTs, 7 sacks. 7 deep passes called. Notice a correlation? Blowout loss

Against the Titans Allen went 10 of 20 for 82 yards, 1 INT only 5 deep passes called A WIN!

Against the Texans Allen went 19 of 17 for 84 yards 2 sacks, Peterman went 6 of 12 for 61 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. 6 deep passes called out of 29. Allen Injured A loss

 

Once back from his injury Allen tended to run more often because he didn't trust the pocket. 

 

Against the Jags Allen went 8 of 19 for 160 yards, 1 TD. Allen rushing 13 for 99 yards, 1 TD. 6 deep passes called A WIN

 Against the Dolphins Allen 18 of 33 for 231, 2 INT, 2 sacks. Allen rushed 9 times for 135 yards. 13 of 33 deep passes called. A Loss

Against the Jets Allen went 18 of 36 for 202 yards, 2 INT, 3 sacks. Allen rushing 9 times for 101 yards, 1 TD. 8 deep passes called. A Loss

Against the Lions Allen went 13 of 26 for 204 yards,  1 TD, 1 sack. 8 deep passes called A Win

Against the Patriots Allen went 20 of 41 for 217 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. 12 deep passes called. a loss.

 

Care to know how many times Tom Brady went deep in this game? Only once! 

 

The point is with little or no run game from the running backs the Bills shouldn't be attempting so many deep passes all season long. Especially with how bad that Bills offensive line was all season long.  Once you establish a rhythm and the QB has some confidence with some short to mid passes... then you go deep.  

 

Last game of the season against the Dolphins Allen went 17 of 26 for 224, 3 TD, 1 INT, 1 sack. Allen 9 rushes for 95 yards, 2 TDs. Only 2 deep passes called in that 42-17 blowout win !!

 

Let's hope the Buffalo Bills 2019 season is like that last Miami game. Only with the RB's making all the rushing yards. Last year Josh Allen was the leading rusher on the team in 12 games. 89 attempts for 631 yards, 8 TD and a 7.1 yard per carry average. 

 

I'm sure this was time consuming, but I don't think I place the same value on it that you do. 

 

Looking through the percentages above, regardless of win or loss, they tended to throw deep on 20-30% of their attempts every game Allen played with the exception of two outliers.  The Packers game when you ask about a correlation because they threw deep 7 time in a loss instead of 5 times in a win... they actually threw deep less than the week before percentage-wise.

 

This assessment also ignores game circumstances. Take the first two games of the season as an example. The Bills were down 26-0 and 28-6 by halftime.  Teams getting blown out by halftime tend to throw a lot in the second half and get sacked in the process and they tend to lose.  In the Packers game they were already down by 19 and not generating any offense when 6 of those 7 sacks happened and when 4 of those 7 "deep passes called" happened.

 

I'm not an X's and O's guy, and I didn't rush to All 22 to formulate this argument, but I don't equate "deep passes called" to "deep passes thrown."  I don't recall a lot of 4 and 5 wide patterns where they were all running fly routes, so some of who the ball ends up being thrown to has to be placed on QB decision making. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if a guy who can throw a ball 80 yds tries to make that happen a few times a game.  It would, however, surprise me if they drafted a guy who could throw the ball 80 yds and then told him not to throw the long ball.  They had no running game outside of Allen and their receivers were worthless for over half of the season regardless of the depth of their routes.  The most reliable part of the offense outside of Allen's rushing, as evidenced by his numbers after week 10, was Foster who is a deep threat...

Edited by transient
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17 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I admit I never saw as much of the Cam abuse, and it’s ref failure to think or say that, but GEEZ Josh got abused at times.  Brady is Coach K, he should be punched in the face just for being such a whiney little b word. 

 

I saw some pretty gnarly hits on Cam that definitely should've been called. I forget who they were playing but this one stands out to me, he was in the midst of being tackled, where, like, no more help was needed, but a defender came barreling in and decked him with his shoulder right under the facemask. Cam got up livid and there was no flag. In fact I think he later said he was told to settle down or they'd throw a flag on him for delay of game. 

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6 hours ago, elijah said:

 

 

But the last time that a coach and GM came in here and said they were, “building a bully..” 👀 😢

Don't talk about it, be about it!

 

It's high time the Bills started acquiring players with an edge. Generally pleased with the acquisitions at OL, but my preference in the draft is a lineman who's niche is pushing the LOS forward. Spain/Morse/Long are solid players, but not necessarily maulers.

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16 hours ago, transient said:

 

I'm sure this was time consuming, but I don't think I place the same value on it that you do. 

 

Looking through the percentages above, regardless of win or loss, they tended to throw deep on 20-30% of their attempts every game Allen played with the exception of two outliers.  The Packers game when you ask about a correlation because they threw deep 7 time in a loss instead of 5 times in a win... they actually threw deep less than the week before percentage-wise.

 

This assessment also ignores game circumstances. Take the first two games of the season as an example. The Bills were down 26-0 and 28-6 by halftime.  Teams getting blown out by halftime tend to throw a lot in the second half and get sacked in the process and they tend to lose.  In the Packers game they were already down by 19 and not generating any offense when 6 of those 7 sacks happened and when 4 of those 7 "deep passes called" happened.

 

I'm not an X's and O's guy, and I didn't rush to All 22 to formulate this argument, but I don't equate "deep passes called" to "deep passes thrown."  I don't recall a lot of 4 and 5 wide patterns where they were all running fly routes, so some of who the ball ends up being thrown to has to be placed on QB decision making. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if a guy who can throw a ball 80 yds tries to make that happen a few times a game.  It would, however, surprise me if they drafted a guy who could throw the ball 80 yds and then told him not to throw the long ball.  They had no running game outside of Allen and their receivers were worthless for over half of the season regardless of the depth of their routes.  The most reliable part of the offense outside of Allen's rushing, as evidenced by his numbers after week 10, was Foster who is a deep threat...

You missed the point here as the very last thing you should be doing with a 2nd year QB In Nathan Peterman and rookie Josh Allen is asking them to attempt a throw that takes three to five seconds to develop in the pocket when they clearly won't have that time. Especially not one third of the play calls.

 

Deep outs take five to seven step drop backs in the pocket and those drop backs take time in the pocket to develop and when you have an offensive line as bad as the Bills was last season those deep passes are the very last thing you should be calling or even asking the receivers to be running. 

 

This was clearly the offensive play calling by the Bills OC and not the QB taking it upon himself to attempt to throw deep one third of the time. Receivers don't run fly routes every play. 

 

There was a direct correlation between deep passes called and sacks in some games. Both Peterman and Allen were trying to make the play call work and they simply didn't have the experience to read the defense, change the play or go with the check down.

 

After Allen's injury when he returned to the starting lineup he started running more often rather then hold on to the ball and hope a receiver gets open and his protection holds. The protections usually never did hold up so he ran. Luckily, due to Allen's athleticism he was able to make defenses look foolish in chasing after him. RG3 managed to do this also in his first season.

 

What bothers me most is that the catch percentage of Zay Jones was 54.9% which means he isn't even catching half the passes thrown his way. Kelvin Benjamin's catch percentage was an abysmal 37.1% and these two players were the top two targeted receivers with Jones at 102 targets, Benjamin at 52. Why? McCoy caught 73.9% of the 46 passes his way! 

 

It looked to me like Bills OC Brian Daboll had a fixation with Allen's big arm and tried to force him to use it more then he should have. It eventually got Allen injured and yet Daboll still kept calling for deep passes even after the injury, although not as much. For 2019, more running the ball by the RBs and more short to mid range passes to move the chains should be the scheme. 

 

This was the reason for my concern for the play calling vs the nastiness of the line. 

 

 

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I think Beane realized the OL was beyond terrible last year, and brought in Morse to anchor the line, and then turned to a bunch of 1-2 year stop gaps.  If the stop gaps turn out to be extension worthy, great.  If not, draft and develop replacements for the stop gaps.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/13/2019 at 8:26 AM, Nihilarian said:

You missed the point here as the very last thing you should be doing with a 2nd year QB In Nathan Peterman and rookie Josh Allen is asking them to attempt a throw that takes three to five seconds to develop in the pocket when they clearly won't have that time. Especially not one third of the play calls.

 

Deep outs take five to seven step drop backs in the pocket and those drop backs take time in the pocket to develop and when you have an offensive line as bad as the Bills was last season those deep passes are the very last thing you should be calling or even asking the receivers to be running. 

 

This was clearly the offensive play calling by the Bills OC and not the QB taking it upon himself to attempt to throw deep one third of the time. Receivers don't run fly routes every play. 

 

There was a direct correlation between deep passes called and sacks in some games. Both Peterman and Allen were trying to make the play call work and they simply didn't have the experience to read the defense, change the play or go with the check down.

 

After Allen's injury when he returned to the starting lineup he started running more often rather then hold on to the ball and hope a receiver gets open and his protection holds. The protections usually never did hold up so he ran. Luckily, due to Allen's athleticism he was able to make defenses look foolish in chasing after him. RG3 managed to do this also in his first season.

 

What bothers me most is that the catch percentage of Zay Jones was 54.9% which means he isn't even catching half the passes thrown his way. Kelvin Benjamin's catch percentage was an abysmal 37.1% and these two players were the top two targeted receivers with Jones at 102 targets, Benjamin at 52. Why? McCoy caught 73.9% of the 46 passes his way! 

 

It looked to me like Bills OC Brian Daboll had a fixation with Allen's big arm and tried to force him to use it more then he should have. It eventually got Allen injured and yet Daboll still kept calling for deep passes even after the injury, although not as much. For 2019, more running the ball by the RBs and more short to mid range passes to move the chains should be the scheme. 

 

This was the reason for my concern for the play calling vs the nastiness of the line. 

 

 

 

Actually Daboll normally floods the zones when running the spread with a deep route, a route that is a bit deeper than the sticks and then some underneath routes that force matchup issues.

 

He and McDermott have been public about Josh not taking the high-percentage throws underneath that are there for the taking. NE took advantage of this tendency by ignoring the underneath routes by taking away all the deeper options he prefers and keeping him hemmed into the pocket. It took Allen out of his game and I think was a teaching moment for Allen.

 

There are 3 or more reasons Allen throws deep:

  • One is the Allen lacks the experience to evaluate his presnap reads to find the best matchup that is likely underneath that requires him to anticipate the open option and quickly throw to a spot. It is not a muscle that he has had to exercise in his past. It is not that he can't do this as some of the talking heads seem to think, just that it is not something he has had to do before to win.
  • The second is that Allen prefers to push the ball past the sticks and it is easier to read a receiver coming open deep than anticipating and hitting quickly the open options underneath.
  • The third is that with the pocket quickly collapsing around Allen (pressured on nearly 40% of his drops), he had to move around and plays broke down and when he rolled out he would look for those deeper receiving options aware that he was in trouble who would work to mirror him behind the coverage that had to account for Allen's ability to take off and run it himself.

 

I agree that there were a lot of cheap shots aimed at Allen and that he needs guys with attitude in front of him. I did not even realize till after re-watching a play against the Dolphins that Alonzo tried to take out Allen's knees clearly after Allen had already ran in a TD. Alonzo hurles himself at his knees, but Allen took a few high steps and eluded the shot the same way he managed to shift to avoid the flying elbow to his head when he was sliding.

 

Can't believe what a cheap-shot douche Alonzo turned into over the years.

 

 

 

Edited by WideNine
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2 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

 

Can't believe what a cheap-shot douche Alonzo turned into over the years.

 

 

 

One to many knee surgeries did him in.When you lost your talent,you have to resort to another way of playing.Regardless,he was always a bit of a nutcase.

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6 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

One to many knee surgeries did him in.When you lost your talent,you have to resort to another way of playing.Regardless,he was always a bit of a nutcase.

 

....but one heck of a Chef! 

 

 

😋

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10 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Actually Daboll normally floods the zones when running the spread with a deep route, a route that is a bit deeper than the sticks and then some underneath routes that force matchup issues.

 

He and McDermott have been public about Josh not taking the high-percentage throws underneath that are there for the taking.

 While I get that Josh Allen likes to throw the deeper passes just as he did while at Wyoming and that McD and Daboll have stated they would like to have Allen throw more underneath, dump off passes. They didn't state this until later in the season. This should have been taken care of internally after the first game. 

 

LeSean McCoy was the leading receiver in 2017 with 77 targets, 59 receptions for a 76.6 catch percentage which makes me wonder why he wasn't utilized more often in Daboll's scheme regardless of going from a "west coast" scheme to the EP they now run in Buffalo. 

 

The scheme that Daboll is running is the "Erhardt-Perkins" which is very versatile in allowing the OC to tailor the offense to the players he has on the roster.  Yes, the scheme they run "Ghost Tosser" calls for a deep out to stretch the defense... the QB doesn't need to focus on this one particular receiver to make the big play one third of the time. In particular in knowing that the top two receivers can't even catch one half the passes thrown their way! Also knowing that the offensive line would barely allow for a two second drop back in the pocket, much less a three to five seconds needed for those deeper passes. 

 

The way the Bills offense worked in Buffalo in 2018 sure wasn't the way the Patriots run that same scheme. With all those deep passes Buffalo was 31st in passing yards, 32nd in passing TDs.

It clearly wasn't working at the start of the season, at the middle and only in the very last game against Miami did the play calling settle down and stop with all the deep passes. The Bills only went deep twice in this game with 33 rush attempts vs 26 pass attempts. Josh Allen threw for three TDs and ran for two more. 

 

11 hours ago, WideNine said:

There are 3 or more reasons Allen throws deep:

  • One is the Allen lacks the experience to evaluate his presnap reads to find the best matchup that is likely underneath that requires him to anticipate the open option and quickly throw to a spot. It is not a muscle that he has had to exercise in his past. It is not that he can't do this as some of the talking heads seem to think, just that it is not something he has had to do before to win.
  • The second is that Allen prefers to push the ball past the sticks and it is easier to read a receiver coming open deep than anticipating and hitting quickly the open options underneath.
  • The third is that with the pocket quickly collapsing around Allen (pressured on nearly 40% of his drops), he had to move around and plays broke down and when he rolled out he would look for those deeper receiving options aware that he was in trouble who would work to mirror him behind the coverage that had to account for Allen's ability to take off and run it himself.

I have a difficult time believing that Allen was this raw and yet was the #7 player taken in the 2018 NFL draft. I also don't believe it was all Allen making the decision all on his own to throw those deep passes. 

 

If you go look at the game log of that very first Bills vs Ravens game in which Nathan Peterman started he went 5 of 18 for 24 yards. He was sacked in the first series on third down probably with a deep pass called. Threw deep left on third down in the second series. Third series sacked on first down probably because a deep pass called. In the fourth series on second down a deep pass incomplete to KB. Fifth series on first down deep pass incomplete to KB, on third down deep pass incomplete to KB. Sixth series. Seventh series on 3rd down deep right to Jason Croom. Eighth series ended on an INT on a short middle pass to KB. 

 

Peterman sacked three times and attempted five to seven deep passes as two of those drop backs resulted in sacks. Josh Allen entered the game in the 3rd quarter and the second play of that series was his first pass which was a deep pass incomplete to Zay Jones. Next play Allen was sacked, probably attempting another deep pass. 

 

Both Peterman and Allen were attempting far more deep passes (10) then they should have and both QBs were sacked three times each for 6 sacks total. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/11/2019 at 7:48 PM, Augie said:

Josh took hits with no flag that would have resulted in prison time had it been Brady. Just sayin’. 

 It's because hes a rookie and I won't get the calls yet but eventually as he improves he will start getting those calls. Brady over his entire career has been protected not only by his O- line,  but by the league. His front 5 are allowed to hold more than any unit in football.  With any luck, once Josh Allen gets that cache our O line will get those advantages....

Edited by LABILLBACKER

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I disagree that pass protection should be favored over run blocking. The hardest offense to stop is the one that runs between the tackles, runs wide, throws short or long equally well because they can catch you off guard more easily. Obviously the Patriots are an exception because of Brady, but he truly is unique in that regard. I also think relying on Allen's passing acumen too much would be a mistake.

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12 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 While I get that Josh Allen likes to throw the deeper passes just as he did while at Wyoming and that McD and Daboll have stated they would like to have Allen throw more underneath, dump off passes. They didn't state this until later in the season. This should have been taken care of internally after the first game. 

 

LeSean McCoy was the leading receiver in 2017 with 77 targets, 59 receptions for a 76.6 catch percentage which makes me wonder why he wasn't utilized more often in Daboll's scheme regardless of going from a "west coast" scheme to the EP they now run in Buffalo. 

 

The scheme that Daboll is running is the "Erhardt-Perkins" which is very versatile in allowing the OC to tailor the offense to the players he has on the roster.  Yes, the scheme they run "Ghost Tosser" calls for a deep out to stretch the defense... the QB doesn't need to focus on this one particular receiver to make the big play one third of the time. In particular in knowing that the top two receivers can't even catch one half the passes thrown their way! Also knowing that the offensive line would barely allow for a two second drop back in the pocket, much less a three to five seconds needed for those deeper passes. 

 

The way the Bills offense worked in Buffalo in 2018 sure wasn't the way the Patriots run that same scheme. With all those deep passes Buffalo was 31st in passing yards, 32nd in passing TDs.

It clearly wasn't working at the start of the season, at the middle and only in the very last game against Miami did the play calling settle down and stop with all the deep passes. The Bills only went deep twice in this game with 33 rush attempts vs 26 pass attempts. Josh Allen threw for three TDs and ran for two more. 

 

I have a difficult time believing that Allen was this raw and yet was the #7 player taken in the 2018 NFL draft. I also don't believe it was all Allen making the decision all on his own to throw those deep passes. 

 

If you go look at the game log of that very first Bills vs Ravens game in which Nathan Peterman started he went 5 of 18 for 24 yards. He was sacked in the first series on third down probably with a deep pass called. Threw deep left on third down in the second series. Third series sacked on first down probably because a deep pass called. In the fourth series on second down a deep pass incomplete to KB. Fifth series on first down deep pass incomplete to KB, on third down deep pass incomplete to KB. Sixth series. Seventh series on 3rd down deep right to Jason Croom. Eighth series ended on an INT on a short middle pass to KB. 

 

Peterman sacked three times and attempted five to seven deep passes as two of those drop backs resulted in sacks. Josh Allen entered the game in the 3rd quarter and the second play of that series was his first pass which was a deep pass incomplete to Zay Jones. Next play Allen was sacked, probably attempting another deep pass. 

 

Both Peterman and Allen were attempting far more deep passes (10) then they should have and both QBs were sacked three times each for 6 sacks total. 

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

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On 4/11/2019 at 9:48 PM, Augie said:

Josh took hits with no flag that would have resulted in prison time had it been Brady. Just sayin’. 

 

Pretty much.

 

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1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

 

This is a pretty good take.

 

I'll add into it, that it was clear during the combine and Josh's pro-day as well as preseason that he legit struggled with accuracy on the dump-off passes.

IMO he knew it and would tuck it and run sometimes when a dump off or checkdown option was open and available.  Either that or didn't see it, but IMO he ran at times when he could see an open Shady, he just didn't have confidence he would hit it and thought his legs were a better bet.

 

That needs to change for JA to have long term NFL success.  "Gotta hit the bunnies!"

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26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is a pretty good take.

 

I'll add into it, that it was clear during the combine and Josh's pro-day as well as preseason that he legit struggled with accuracy on the dump-off passes.

IMO he knew it and would tuck it and run sometimes when a dump off or checkdown option was open and available.  Either that or didn't see it, but IMO he ran at times when he could see an open Shady, he just didn't have confidence he would hit it and thought his legs were a better bet.

 

That needs to change for JA to have long term NFL success.  "Gotta hit the bunnies!"

 

I did see his footwork improve over the course of the year.

 

It seemed he did get a lot of coaching about his mechanics and the need to reset his feet quickly to align his lead foot better with the intended spot he is going to throw to underneath, but early on this was an awkward deliberate process where the timing was off.

 

As the season progressed it became a smoother more natural effort, he had better timing and foot placement after his drops to hit more shorter options with good touch.

 

Makes sense that on deeper throws where he doesn't have to reset his feet laterally as much and can step into his throws the proper mechanics come more naturally to Allen along with better ball placement.

 

He will get there as Daboll is probably going to assign him a quota of minimal short passes to complete each game:)

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

More and more I'm thinking Jonah Williams is the pick. 3 year starter. 44 games played. Versatile. Perfectionist. Great team leader and only cares about football.

 

EDIT: His coaches nicknamed him, "THE INTELLECTUAL!" for goodness sake

Edited by FeelingOnYouboty

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, WideNine said:

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

This game you linked was a preseason game against the Carolina Panthers and it looked like both head coaches got together and said let's not blitz like crazy. So the QB's had more time in the pocket to throw in this game. 

 

On that very first play why should the QB look at the underneath guy when the deep post receiver had beaten his man and he had time to throw? (1)The very next play after that deep ball Allen throws a short pass that was incomplete just to make a first down. (2) Next pass after that was another short pass over the middle to Clay for a first down. (3)The play after that was a mid range 20 yard pass on 2nd and 8 for a first down. (4) The next play is a pass to the back in the flat five yards behind the line of scrimmage...(5)

 

The next play on 3rd and 13 again Allen throws a short pass 5 yards beyond the LoS and some yards behind the first down marker. (6)The next play on 4th down and 3 Allen scrambles and attempts to throw it away. (7) So far only one out of seven passes attempted was deep and most were short passes in an attempt to make a first down.

 

Next play on 1st and 10 a short pass attempting to get to the first down. On 2nd and 10 from the Bills 25, Allen steps up in the pocket and hits his receiver at the Bills 45 for a first down on a deep pass. Really a darn shame Allen didn't have protection like this during the regular season! The thing is, the Bills had two open receivers underneath and the camera view from the end zone showed how open the Bills receiver was and that a defender fell down on the play. 

 

From ESPN,

(11:15 - 3rd) G.Gano kicks 65 yards from CAR 35 to end zone, Touchback. Kick through end zone.

  • 1st & 10 at BUF 25

    (11:15 - 3rd) J.Allen sacked at BUF 19 for -6 yards (J.Carter).

  • 2nd & 16 at BUF 19

    (10:35 - 3rd) K.Ford up the middle to BUF 31 for 12 yards (L.Doss).

  • 3rd & 4 at BUF 31

    (9:57 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short left to K.Clay to BUF 37 for 6 yards (D.Southward). Flat pass, caught at BUF 36.

  • 1st & 10 at BUF 37

    (9:23 - 3rd) K.Ford left tackle to BUF 39 for 2 yards (B.Cox).

  • 2nd & 8 at BUF 39

    (8:49 - 3rd) J.Allen pass short left to J.Croom to CAR 39 for 22 yards (D.Cox). Caught in flat at CAR 49.

  • 1st & 10 at CAR 38

    (8:17 - 3rd) K.Ford right guard to CAR 33 for 5 yards (C.Frey, C.Elder).

  • 2nd & 5 at CAR 33

    (7:36 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short left to K.Clay to CAR 30 for 3 yards (C.Elder, M.Palardy). Screen pass, caught at CAR 36. Penalty on BUF, Illegal Formation, declined. PENALTY on CAR-J.Carter, Lowering the Head to Initiate Contact, 15 yards, enforced at CAR 33 - No Play.

  • 1st & 10 at CAR 18

    (6:48 - 3rd) J.Allen pass short right to M.Murphy to CAR 17 for 1 yard (S.Bailey). Screen pass, caught at CAR 23.

  • 2nd & 9 at CAR 17

    (6:32 - 3rd) (Shotgun) K.Ford up the middle to CAR 16 for 1 yard (L.Doss).

  • 3rd & 8 at CAR 16

    (5:59 - 3rd) PENALTY on BUF-K.Ford, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CAR 16 - No Play.

  • 3rd & 13 at CAR 21

    (5:49 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short right to K.Ford to CAR 10 for 11 yards (R.Brown, L.Doss). Caught near sideline at CAR 17.

  •  

    (5:03 - 3rd) Timeout #1 by BUF at 05:03.

  • 4th & 2 at CAR 10

    (4:53 - 3rd) J.Allen pass incomplete short left to J.Croom (D.Hall) [J.Carter]. Pass tipped in flat at CAR 20.

The next series Allen attempted more deep passes but those were because of the down and distance 2nd and 10, 2nd and 17, 3rd and 22. In the last series it captured one reason as to why I think Daboll kept calling deep passes in some games during the regular season and that is because the Bills were behind in the score 23-28 and he wanted to catch up by throwing deep... as the last 4 of 5 passes were deep. 

 

Edited by Nihilarian

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14 hours ago, WideNine said:

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

To further my point about the deep pass calls. The week 10 Jets game the very first pass from Matt Barkley was a deep 47 yard bomb to Robert foster that set the tone for the game. Buffalo had the lead the entire game and the Bills still threw it deep eight times. The Jets only threw deep four times despite being behind the entire game.

 

Daboll calling for 5-7 deep throws in 18 attempts for Nathan Peterman in his start against the Ravens. Daboll calling for 8 deep throws for Matt Barkley in his 26 attempts.  This shows that it wasn't just about Josh Allen or any issues some fans think he is dealing with.

 

The simple fact was that Bills OC Brian Daboll was calling for far, far too many deep passes when the Bills didn't have much of a run game from the RB's to take the heat off the QBs, or worse yet much protection in the pocket as the O line stunk. Even with Allen's unreal pocket escape ability and ability to run he was still sacked 28 times in 12 games. 

 

It wasn't just Josh Allen with the deep passes as both Peterman and Barkley were also throwing deep. It couldn't be more clear to me that the Bills OC Brian Daboll called the scheme his way regardless of the QB. The object should be to move the chains to make first downs, get into the red zone and score. Not to throw deep 30% of the time.  

 

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The ultimate goal is to raise the level of play from lower tier CFL to mid level NFL, just as a starting point.

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On 4/15/2019 at 8:19 AM, WideNine said:

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

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1 hour ago, Dr. K said:

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

 

It's hard to argue with a man with an ax to grind who believes that 54% is less than half and that regurgitated box score/play by play is detailed analysis...

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2 hours ago, Dr. K said:

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

 

33 minutes ago, transient said:

 

It's hard to argue with a man with an ax to grind who believes that 54% is less than half and that regurgitated box score/play by play is detailed analysis...

Okay, I show that the Bills OC was calling for deep passes with three different QBs!  And the consensus from the board is that it's all on Josh Allen because he refuses to throw the underneath stuff...

 

Yet, I showed in the Carolina game log 3rd quarter series that he does indeed throw short passes. That game log shows completion after completion with 5 of 6 passes completed. 6 yards, 22 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 11 yards.  I don't see a problem with Allen throwing a short pass!

 

It's those deep passes to the two guys who didn't catch very well that bothered me. If the OC honestly didn't want the QB to throw deep he would simply call plays that didn't send a receiver deep! 

 

 

Oh, I forgot. Allen would just change the play to a deep pass because that's all he wants to do...:rolleyes:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Okay, I show that the Bills OC was calling for deep passes with three different QBs!  And the consensus from the board is that it's all on Josh Allen because he refuses to throw the underneath stuff...

 

Yet, I showed in the Carolina game log 3rd quarter series that he does indeed throw short passes. That game log shows completion after completion with 5 of 6 passes completed. 6 yards, 22 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 11 yards.  I don't see a problem with Allen throwing a short pass!

 

It's those deep passes to the two guys who didn't catch very well that bothered me. If the OC honestly didn't want the QB to throw deep he would simply call plays that didn't send a receiver deep! 

 

 

Oh, I forgot. Allen would just change the play to a deep pass because that's all he wants to do...:rolleyes:

 

 

So just be confident in your possession of the simple Truth. We'll see if it plays out any differently this season.

Edited by Dr. K

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On 4/13/2019 at 9:31 AM, LabattBlue said:

I think Beane realized the OL was beyond terrible last year, and brought in Morse to anchor the line, and then turned to a bunch of 1-2 year stop gaps.  If the stop gaps turn out to be extension worthy, great.  If not, draft and develop replacements for the stop gaps.

I dont think Spain is a stop gap

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11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont think Spain is a stop gap

 

I hope not, but his contract says he is.  We have him for one year and only for peanuts.

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