These last 2 drafts have been incredible and McBeane deserve more credit.

[aristocrat]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Well, being named a "starter" on a team that doesn't have a competent starter at that position isn't quite the same as being named the starter over a competent veteran who could be starter on most teams in the league.   Stephon Gilmore was gone before Tre White was drafted.  Cordy Glenn was injured in 2017 and then traded away in 2018, and when Dion Dawkins didn't have Richie Incognito helping him out in 2018, he sucked.  In 2018 Allen, Edmunds, and Teller had absolutely no viable competition to beat out, and in Allen's case, the Bills brain trust of McDermott and Beane made sure of that by trading away Taylor before the draft and McCarron before the regular while keeping Peterman on the roster.

 

 

I understood you perfectly.  You claimed that the Bills lacked talent before the arrival of McDermott and Beane, and that's simply untrue.  They had talent but chose to get rid of it rather than build on the foundation that they had.   So, the absence of Gilmore, Woods, Goodwin, Watkins, Brown, Glenn, Taylor, Dareus, etc and all the others are very much in play in any discussion of the McDermott-Beane regime.

 

Talent recognition is the major function of any team's GM or HC/GM combo, and at best, McDermott and Beane have done a mediocre job at best.  They shed good talent for nothing or next to nothing.  They have overpaid and/or totally missed on poor talent like Jones and Peterman.  They gamble on projects and apparently think that hard work and practice can somehow turn poor players into good ones when the talent simply isn't there.

 

If White beat out Gilmore for the starting job, THAT would be an accomplishment.  Beating out air ain't nothing to brag about.  If Dawkins beat out a healthy Glenn, then he's the real deal.  Beating air ain't nothing.  Allen beating out Taylor would be a big deal -- that's exactly what Mayfield did in Cleveland -- but beating out Nate Peterman is less than nothing.

 

 

What a hot take. I mean all time.  Glenn couldn't stay on the field and Dawkins wasn't awful last year he was pretty good while the interior was flat all time bad.  White is every bit as good as Gilmore.  They chose to shed later in the career large contract guys to get their guys in there and after two drafts we are looking very good. Lots of rookies are given their starting job because of draft position especially qbs so your argument is flawed.  They've put together a great secondary, very good couple young lbs in milano and edmunds and all around our defense is you know...near the top of the nfl but you dont mention that.  You can't expect a team just rebuild the entire roster in a year or two it takes a few years and that's what they're doing. Name another team that just nails all pro talent left and right? If teams hit on every pick they'd win a title every year.  Even the pats miss on talent but they hit on enough and bring in solid free agents to fill in the gaps.  

 

Oh and Taylor won the starting job over Mayfield but then Taylor lost the job week 2 or whatever it was. lol

[GreggTX]

I'm not hating on Beane, but it's been a mixed bag so far.

1. Whaley passed on Mahomes so I'm not blaming 'McBeane ' as some mistakenly do.

2. The jury is still very much out on both of last year's 1st round picks. They still have a very long way to go.

3. Day 3 and the UDFA's may, in the long run, outperform Allen and/or Edmunds. Not good.

4. Last year's FA crop didn't impress me much so I reserve judgement on this year's group.

[The Senator]

11 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

 

Someone was talking about Cookie Gilchrist and the guy at the table misunderstood and thought they wanted Milano.

 

Yes, I believe we drafted him right from Pepperidge Farm

.

[mannc]

4 hours ago, blacklabel said:

 

If you think Mahomes would've had the same success here as he did in KC you're mistaken. 

 

 

This right here is the all-time dumbest argument in the history of TSW.  And I don't mean to pick on you, because I see lots of people make the same argument: "[Fill in name of perennial pro bowl player] would have sucked in Buffalo because [fill in excuse]." 

 

Totally unprovable and in this case, absolutely absurd.  Mahomes was the freaking league MVP in his first year as a starter!  So what if his numbers wouldn't have been exactly the same in Buffalo?  That means exactly zero.     

[chris heff]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I think where a lot of the debate comes in is when did Beane actually start shotcalling the draft picks

 

Some ppl think it was 2 drafts ago and Whaley was just a maniquin

 

Some ppl thing that 2 years ago it was Whaley's draft

 

I would so...no matter what....the last 2 BILLS drafts have been excellent

I agree, but we would really have a story if Beane was running the Bills draft while still in the employ of the Panthers. Just kidding, I do believe that McDermott made the final call on the picks in 2017.

[blacklabel]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

This right here is the all-time dumbest argument in the history of TSW.  And I don't mean to pick on you, because I see lots of people make the same argument: "[Fill in name of perennial pro bowl player] would have sucked in Buffalo because [fill in excuse]." 

 

Totally unprovable and in this case, absolutely absurd.  Mahomes was the freaking league MVP in his first year as a starter!  So what if his numbers wouldn't have been exactly the same in Buffalo?  That means exactly zero.     

 

It ain't about his numbers, man. It's about the coaching and the supporting cast he has around him. Plus he sat and learned for a year behind Alex Smith. Then he steps into an offense coached by one of the smartest offensive minds ever, has Pro Bowl players at every skill position and a solid OL. Circumstances matter, that's all I'm saying. The circumstances in Buffalo would likely not have helped him reach the level of success he has in KC.

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, BillsFan1988 said:

I dont consider Milano a game changer i consider him a borderline pro bowler.  Which is great for a 5th rd pk. He makes plays there's no doubt but that's not all that makes a player a game changer in my opinion.  A game changer is a player the other teams must account for in a major way in there gm plan a player that opens it up for other teammates.  Milano plays well in our system and is a great fit for Mcd. But he is not a game changer yet. 

By your defination there are literally like 10 players in the entire league that are game changers.

 

(hint.   A borderline pro bowl bowler IS a game changer....if they make plays in a game that affect the outcome of the game.....they are game changers.)

 

The question really is......can they be game changes consistantly and not every once in a great while?

[CBD]

14 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I know people will talk about Beane not being GM yet but him and McDermott have their fingerprints all over the 2017 draft.

 

Just off the bat , these drafts were 'Franchise Changing'. We're going to have 8-10 starters from these drafts entering week 1 of the upcoming season! And most these guys are high end starters. That's pretty amazing. 

 

Harry Phillips plays a key role and can only improve.

Siran Neal is okay depth but again , he can only get better.

 

The drafts have been good and have promise for the future. I would comment that in my opinion currently the only "high end" starter is Tre White. I would also comment that I like Phillips, maybe Neal less so, and this may just be a pet peeve of mine - but both, or any of the players you listed, can become much worse. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by CBend

[Bangarang]

I think it’s really dumb to try and give Beane credit for a draft where he was still employed by another team.

 

Do people really think he was sneaking around and feeding McD information?

 

The most logical and likely scenario is McD called the shots using the information Whaley and his staff put together.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Bangarang

[ngbills]

Lets not confuse playing or starting with a successful draft. Seriously go back and look through the drafts of the past. There are many Milano's, let alone a ton of Taron and Levi's. The 4-5 years before Milano - Ragland, P Brown, Alonso and Bradham. Pretty solid list. DB's during that time - Seymour, Darby, Gilmore, Brooks. When you create holes its easy to fill them with rookies and say we draft so well. 

 

You mention Dawkins and Teller - not earth shattering. Dawkins could turn into a good player or be a John Miller and lose his job, especially with all the signings. Zay, Croom and Foster could all see smaller roles next year and eventually gone. Not trying to be down but many of these guys played because the lack of talent more than  their own talent. Or WR were awful and have gotten better. Same for our TE and OL. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

I think it’s really dumb to try and give Beane credit for a draft where he was still employed by another team.

 

Do people really think he was sneaking around and feeding McD information?

 

The most logical and likely scenario is McD called the shots using the information Whaley and his staff put together.

Entirely possible.

[Punching Bag]

14 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

My biggest question about the 2017 draft..

 

Who found Milano?

 

Hope that dude got a raise..

 

The scout who did report on him was fired.  Maybe he was one of the three who were rehired.

[Augie]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I think where a lot of the debate comes in is when did Beane actually start shotcalling the draft picks

 

Some ppl think it was 2 drafts ago and Whaley was just a maniquin

 

Some ppl thing that 2 years ago it was Whaley's draft

 

I would so...no matter what....the last 2 BILLS drafts have been excellent

 

True!

 

Was that addition by subtraction.....just get Rex out of the room and things look up? 

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Each new GM gets tons of love the first couple years..........everything was done to precision according to a master plan..........it's all roses.?

 

I remember when the Bills drafted Lynch, Poz and Edwards and a year later people were saying it might be the greatest Bills draft ever........Bill Walsh dubbed Trent the next Montana dontcha' know!

 

Doug Whaley was the golden child around here for a while..........pre-anointed, his ascension was eagerly awaited............people were fighting to give him credit for trading back before drafting his QB of the future and getting Kiko too......and then stealing Jerry Hughes.........he was THE MAN on TSW!

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Albany,n.y.]

12 hours ago, gjv001 said:

I think Croom will be more than "depth". He could be a top 10 TE this season.

If the Bills go crazy & keep 10 TEs, then he'll be a top 10 TE on the team. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

I'm not hating on Beane, but it's been a mixed bag so far.

1. Whaley passed on Mahomes so I'm not blaming 'McBeane ' as some mistakenly do.

2. The jury is still very much out on both of last year's 1st round picks. They still have a very long way to go.

3. Day 3 and the UDFA's may, in the long run, outperform Allen and/or Edmunds. Not good.

4. Last year's FA crop didn't impress me much so I reserve judgement on this year's group.

.....who knows?...I'm still not sure if Whaley had the actual GM horsepower and final say....he was a personnel gopher IMO.......besides hindsight is a beautiful "I told you so" thing......how many posters frowned on Mahomes because he was from a leper like "Air Raid" background?...the landscape was littered with "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL" quotes....probably the SAME gang now spouting "I told you so" because of his year 2 accolades....

[ngbills]

34 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

If the Bills go crazy & keep 10 TEs, then he'll be a top 10 TE on the team. 

He will dominate. Nevermind he was undrafted and cut multiple times. This is the entertaining mindset around here at times. Random guys we have now are destined to be stars and better than anything in the past. Then fast forward a few years when they did nothing and its what did you expect Croom was terrible, player xyz who was also undrafted and cut multiple times is so much better because new gm is a genious. 

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I think where a lot of the debate comes in is when did Beane actually start shotcalling the draft picks

 

Some ppl think it was 2 drafts ago and Whaley was just a maniquin

 

Some ppl thing that 2 years ago it was Whaley's draft

 

I would so...no matter what....the last 2 BILLS drafts have been excellent

 

There really isn't an actual debate.  Beans was hired after the 2017 draft.  Suggestions that he was in a shadow Bills war room are sad retellings of history.

 

2 hours ago, blacklabel said:

 

It ain't about his numbers, man. It's about the coaching and the supporting cast he has around him. Plus he sat and learned for a year behind Alex Smith. Then he steps into an offense coached by one of the smartest offensive minds ever, has Pro Bowl players at every skill position and a solid OL. Circumstances matter, that's all I'm saying. The circumstances in Buffalo would likely not have helped him reach the level of success he has in KC.

 

What did he learn form Alex Smith?  How to improvise on the fly?  Sidearm crazy throws to thread the needle through the secondary or the LBs in the middle?  How to keep his passing yards under 4000?  TDs no more than 25 per year?  

 

Great talent is great talent--even on mediocre teams (see Andrew Luck).

52 minutes ago, ngbills said:

He will dominate. Nevermind he was undrafted and cut multiple times. This is the entertaining mindset around here at times. Random guys we have now are destined to be stars and better than anything in the past. Then fast forward a few years when they did nothing and its what did you expect Croom was terrible, player xyz who was also undrafted and cut multiple times is so much better because new gm is a genious. 

 

uhhh, what?

[PlayoffsPlease]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think it's pretty hard to make your case. Bills were 7-9 and 8-8 for the two years before those drafts, and they had crappy coaching except for Lynn in the second tear.  How bad could the talent have been?

And they went 9-7 and 6-10 the next two years.  All optimism for the Bills begins and ends with Josh Allen.  If He is hits stardom, Beane is a hero.  If he fails, the Bills just become the guys who traded the pick used for Mahomes. 

[mcdamit]

21 hours ago, aceman_16 said:

 

Actually....  it isn't even close and a false equivalency.  The Nix/Whaley saga is a "thing" because Whaley was the heir apparent to Nix and was working for the Bills in the capacity to influence the Bills' draft selections as Nix was being phased out.

 

Beane, on the other hand, was with a different competing NFL team (Panthers) in a capacity to influence their respective draft.  So not only were they on different teams, it would have highly "illegal" to do this type of "influence" and when eventually discovered Beane would have lost his career and he would have incurred the wrath of NFL sanctions (along with Buffalo). If people have learned ANYTHING about Beane, by now, it should be his professionalism and seemingly desire to do the right thing.

Yeah... seems that folks twist reality to fit their narrative as well to confirm their bias - and THIS topic comes up in an inordinate amount of times.

hhmm what i meant was we don;t know who picked the players Whaley or nix /or whaley /mcdermott .  We can assume the coach picked them but Whale's team did all the research, set the board ect.