Tackle at #9, Dawkins to LG

[Dat]

22 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

1...

Folks, we have posting guidelines for the OP to stay with threads they start. Doing so precludes Fly By Turd Dropping threads. There’s great discussion going on in this thread of how we should address the Draft. I hate to kill it, but not doing so encourages our not so bright FBTD crowd. 

 

For this thread specifically, I’ll let y’all decide.

 

Guideline Def- A general rule principle or piece of advice. By definition, following a guideline is never mandatory. Guidelines are not binding and are not enforced.

 

I think you are admitting it’s a good thread, guidelines are not black and white. You have other moderators posting in it.

 

Go Bills

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I'm cool with waiting on Andrew Thomas, Walker Little and Alaric Jackson next year

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, Dat said:

 

Guideline Def- A general rule principle or piece of advice. By definition, following a guideline is never mandatory. Guidelines are not binding and are not enforced.

 

I think you are admitting it’s a good thread, guidelines are not black and white. You have other moderators posting in it.

 

Go Bills

More to the point, the OP is a long time poster with quality posting history. If it were a noob pulling an FBTD, it would be closed. So it stays. 

Speaking of noobs, “Shhhhhhh”?? I gotcher Shhhhh!

[LSHMEAB]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

Could you guys please explain what it is about Dawkins and his play through college that leads you to believe he could become an effective pulling guard in the NFL?

I do know that he played guard in the Senior Bowl and was evaluated as both a guard and a tackle by pre draft pundits.

 

Thanks. 

 

He looked pretty mobile on that TD reception. Didn't he lead the team in that category in 2018?

[freddyjj]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

Could you guys please explain what it is about Dawkins and his play through college that leads you to believe he could become an effective pulling guard in the NFL?

I do know that he played guard in the Senior Bowl and was evaluated as both a guard and a tackle by pre draft pundits.

 

Thanks. 

 

See the NFL scouting report and Mayock's comments - his skill set project well to OG.  the 3 cone drill shows short area quickness which could help him in targeting LB/S at second level.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/dion-dawkins?id=2557875

 

 

[Logic]

17 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I get what you are saying...BUT...

 

The defense was #2 in the NFL despite playing a third of the season with a putrid offense and losing Milano.  Helping the offense and getting Milano back will also take pressure off the defense.  Plus, Oliver and Wilkins are getting a bit over hyped as if they have no risk.  They are not the same prospect as Quennin Williams.  I do agree we will absolutely add a DT or 2 between now and OTA's...but I just dont think it will be with the 9th pick.  

 

They drafted Harrison to specifically replace Kyle and he has yet to get the opportunity.  Plus they resigned Jordan.  I really don't think Beane is as concerned about the DT as many believe he is.  And Kyle was in the last year of his career, he wasn't the "Pro Bowl" version of Kyle last year.  Thats one thing people keep forgetting.  

 

Irony is I see people talking about how bad our DT's were last year, then also ironically talk about how hard it will be to replace Kyle.  Biggest loss with Kyle is his leadership.  He was solid, not great when he retired in terms of a DT.  Both Jordan and Harrison have the potential to replace the level of play we got out of Kyle last year.  

 

Honestly, if we make zero additions to the Defense right now, it will most likely still be better than last year.  Milano is back, Edmunds has a season under his belt, and the secondary has the depth back.  I really don't see anything about our D that is in crisis mode.  

 

For me...Oliver and Wilkins will be on the board at 9...neither will be picked by the Bills.  We will either trade down if we can...or we will take an EDGE, DK, TJ or OL.  And I suspect as we get closer to the draft this will start to narrow down more.  

Fair enough. I respect your opinion on this matter. I also respectfully disagree.

I don't feel that Harrison Phillips was drafted to replace Kyle Williams. I don't believe Harrison Phillips' best position is at 3T. He CAN do it, but not well enough to be the full time starter at that position. I believe Phillips' best position is 1T, or even as a versatile backup who can play both positions. I also don't believe that Jordan Phillips has shown enough to be counted on as "the answer" at that position. Knowing how heavily McDermott rotates the defensive line, knowing how many snaps Kyle Williams took last year, and knowing how crucial interior pass rush is to modern defense, I rate 3T as a pretty gigantic need currently. As such, I would be fine with the Bills spending a high draft pick on one. I also agree that Edge, TE, or OT would be good uses of high draft capital. I'm fine with any of the above, but I DO think a legitimate addition at 3T is perhaps more necessary and important than you're giving it credit for.

[TigerJ]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Lol....trade away TT and not bring Preston Brown back nor sign a MLB in free agency. Pretty sure Beane decided months before last years draft what positions he was drafting. 

And Im fairly certain he has decided that of these four positions TE, edge, OT, DT, three will be drafted in top three rounds if not all four with a trade down.

Of course Beane knows his positions of need, but if he's hell bent on picking a tackle at #9 and the value isn't very good, he'd be a fool to force the issue.  In preparation for the draft, the personnel team on the Bills discuss all kinds of scenarios with respect to who might be available  and what they would do if those scenarios actually happened.  As far as the particular needs you mentioned (TE, edge, OT, and DT) I think all four will probably be addressed in the draft.  With the signing of a couple quality OTs, and a quality tight end,  I'm not positive those positions will be addressed in the top half of the draft.  

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, freddyjj said:

See the NFL scouting report and Mayock's comments - his skill set project well to OG.  the 3 cone drill shows short area quickness which could help him in targeting LB/S at second level.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/dion-dawkins?id=2557875

 

 

 

That same short area quickness is essential for kick stepping to block edge rushers.What I don't understand about this thought process is that the people we want to replace Dawkins with do not project as well to left tackle as Dawkins. He has longer arms and a better three cone than the top draft prospects. Better bench press everything or if the numbers aren't better, they are really close. We are running with some comments Mike Mayock made and 7 plays during his rookie year. I don't understand it. And this rant is not directed at you freddyjj. I'm just quoting your stat. 

 

All of his numbers are better, his size and length project better, and he has two years of experience under his belt in the NFL. Why do we want to move him? He was a raw prospect from day 1 and needs refinement, but I do not believe he is a guard. 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by MrEpsYtown

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

That same short area quickness is essential for kick stepping to block edge rushers.What I don't understand about this thought process is that the people we want to replace Dawkins with do not project as well to left tackle as Dawkins. He has longer arms and a better three cone than the top draft prospects. Better bench press everything or if the numbers aren't better, they are really close. We are running with some comments Mike Mayock made and 7 plays during his rookie year. I don't understand it. 

 

All of his numbers are better, his size and length project better, and he has two years of experience under his belt in the NFL. Why do we want to move him? He was a raw prospect from day 1 and needs refinement, but I do not believe he is a guard. 

 

Little and Dillard are the two guys that project strictly to LT and neither represent value at 9, so you make a good point. Given the way this particular draft looks, I don't expect to see a shift in 2019.

 

If they were to wiggle their way up from 40, could be a different story.

 

If they take Taylor at 9, Dawkins stays at LT.

[freddyjj]

13 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

That same short area quickness is essential for kick stepping to block edge rushers.What I don't understand about this thought process is that the people we want to replace Dawkins with do not project as well to left tackle as Dawkins. He has longer arms and a better three cone than the top draft prospects. Better bench press everything or if the numbers aren't better, they are really close. We are running with some comments Mike Mayock made and 7 plays during his rookie year. I don't understand it. And this rant is not directed at you freddyjj. I'm just quoting your stat. 

 

All of his numbers are better, his size and length project better, and he has two years of experience under his belt in the NFL. Why do we want to move him? He was a raw prospect from day 1 and needs refinement, but I do not believe he is a guard. 

 

No offense taken

 

I believe the signing of Ty Nsekhe is the only reason we move him.  If Ty is better at LT, and he may very well be today, then why not entertain moving Dawkins? Morse is a very mobile C and pairing Dawkins with him at LG could really help the screen game and run blocking.  

 

Really believe OBD's idea is to get the 5 best OL on field at once.  Ty/Dawkins/Morse/Long/ Rookie RT might actually be one way the 5 best sort out.

Edited March 21, 2019 by freddyjj

[papazoid]

On 3/20/2019 at 2:33 PM, mjt328 said:

The more I examine the roster and our recent additions, I agree that we still need to draft another O-Lineman high.

 

We are set at center with Mitch Morse, and we need to have confidence that Dion Dawkins returns to form after a sophomore slump.  I think that Ty Nsekhe will be a significant upgrade over Jordan Mills, but he's already 34 and can't be counted on as a long-term answer.  We added some nice competition at the guard position, but neither Spencer Long or Jon Feliciano are guaranteed upgrades.  And we have no idea whether Wyatt Teller will develop.

 

I'm comfortable enough in our additions at Wide Receiver to let things play out, and we don't need to draft anyone else high.

 

Our biggest remaining needs (in order):

1. Tight End

2.  Offensive Line

3.  Defensive Tackle/3-Tech

4.  Defensive End

 

 

boom

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Fair enough. I respect your opinion on this matter. I also respectfully disagree.

I don't feel that Harrison Phillips was drafted to replace Kyle Williams. I don't believe Harrison Phillips' best position is at 3T. He CAN do it, but not well enough to be the full time starter at that position. I believe Phillips' best position is 1T, or even as a versatile backup who can play both positions. I also don't believe that Jordan Phillips has shown enough to be counted on as "the answer" at that position. Knowing how heavily McDermott rotates the defensive line, knowing how many snaps Kyle Williams took last year, and knowing how crucial interior pass rush is to modern defense, I rate 3T as a pretty gigantic need currently. As such, I would be fine with the Bills spending a high draft pick on one. I also agree that Edge, TE, or OT would be good uses of high draft capital. I'm fine with any of the above, but I DO think a legitimate addition at 3T is perhaps more necessary and important than you're giving it credit for.

 

I dont really disagree with this, I know we will add a DT still.  However, the one thing I do disagree on is I think that Beane and McD like Harrison and Jordan more than you think they do.  Not saying that they believe they are for sure the answer, I just don't think they are as panicked as some posters on this board and media are about the retirement of Kyle.  The biggest loss with Kyle is his leadership and locker room presence.  

 

People talk about peak Kyle when talking about replacing him, not the Kyle we had the last 2 years which was not a "Pro Bowl" level of play, more like solid.  I think its more than plausible that Jordan and Harrison can replace Kyles actual on field performance the last 2 years...not his reputation...but his real play.  

 

And like I said before, I fully expect another DT or 2, I just do not think it will be the 9th pick.  I do think Simmons is a real possibility with our 2nd round pick or a move up from our 2nd round pick.  Beane loves getting value and Simmons is going to be a steal for someone at some point.  

 

Plus DT is pretty deep, he can get that DT in 2nd too even if Simmons isnt there.  So I just dont see it at 9...could be wrong, just my opinion on what I think Beane will do.  At least at this moment in time.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[thebandit27]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was about to say it was either Tampa or Oakland. There were a handful of snaps in another game again when Richie was dinged as well. But the drive where he came in and killed it was in that spell where we beat Oakland and Tampa. We couldn't run the ball at all early, Richie went down on the 1st or 2nd play of a drive... Dawkins came in at LG for the drive and we ran it down their throats went 60+ yards and scored. 

 

If we pass on Ed Oliver I think that is a mistake. He is one of the elite players in this draft. Wilkins I am high on but yea I can see the reasons for going elsewhere. If we pass on Ed Oliver we will regret it. 

 

It was TB. He came in for a few plays at guard and mowed people down.

[Bill_with_it]

On 3/21/2019 at 3:31 AM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

No need to move Dawkins.

 

Dawkins/Teller/Morse/Long/Nsekhe

100% never good to move a cornerstone one of which is very our rookie qb is very comfortable with. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

13 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

100% never good to move a cornerstone one of which is very our rookie qb is very comfortable with. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

 

The more I learn about Nsekhe, the more I suspect they might want him at LT.  I agree with your sentiment, but if they liked Nsekhe at LT the line might look something like this.

 

Nsekhe/Dawkins/Morse/Teller-Long/Rookie (Risner)

 

I wouldn’t cry myself to sleep if this happened.

[LSHMEAB]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

The more I learn about Nsekhe, the more I suspect they might want him at LT.  I agree with your sentiment, but if they liked Nsekhe at LT the line might look something like this.

 

Nsekhe/Dawkins/Morse/Teller-Long/Rookie (Risner)

 

I wouldn’t cry myself to sleep if this happened.

I don't hate that scenario, but there are egos involved. If you swing Dawkins over to LG for a 33 year old, it's hard to imagine him embracing the Bills long term. I suppose you could say the same for a rookie. I'd just feel more comfortable with the LT spot being "solidified," but since this is a big boy sport, you put your best five on the field and let the Dawkins situation play itself out. If it goes this way, we'll certainly need to add a bonafide long term LT in the next two seasons.

 

Lots of possibilities and lots of things that will be sorted out in the draft and in camp.

[thebandit27]

2 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

100% never good to move a cornerstone one of which is very our rookie qb is very comfortable with. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

 

1) no idea how one could call Dawkins a cornerstone at this point 

2) there are few hard and fast rules to this, but "get your best five on the field" is one of them. If that means moving Dawkins from a position at which he could be "just fine" to one where he can be a pro bowler, then that's absolutely appropriate 

[Agent 91]

On 3/20/2019 at 2:52 PM, metzelaars_lives said:

Not sure why no one is mentioning that we desperately need a linebacker.  Our starters are good but we have ZERO depth.

And Lorenzo supposedly isnt supposed to be a full time starter. I hope we can get Kahlil Hodge, or someone similar 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 hours ago, TigerJ said:

Of course Beane knows his positions of need, but if he's hell bent on picking a tackle at #9 and the value isn't very good, he'd be a fool to force the issue.  In preparation for the draft, the personnel team on the Bills discuss all kinds of scenarios with respect to who might be available  and what they would do if those scenarios actually happened.  As far as the particular needs you mentioned (TE, edge, OT, and DT) I think all four will probably be addressed in the draft.  With the signing of a couple quality OTs, and a quality tight end,  I'm not positive those positions will be addressed in the top half of the draft.  

I don't think either OT or the TE signed are quality players.  In fact not many people do.  Most suggest the OTs are best served as the swing tackle that could start if needed.  Even if Nsehke proves capable at RT he is old and not a long term solution.  That said they may be good enough to pass on an OT in the first round and take a pass rusher.

[Bill_with_it]

7 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

1) no idea how one could call Dawkins a cornerstone at this point 

2) there are few hard and fast rules to this, but "get your best five on the field" is one of them. If that means moving Dawkins from a position at which he could be "just fine" to one where he can be a pro bowler, then that's absolutely appropriate 

We tried that best five in the field ordeal. Didn’t quite cut it.

1.  Piece of mind knowing what the 38th overall ranked tackle (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/dion-dawkins/11818) can do in your offense with comfortability to your qb is better than trying to reinvent the wheel. 

2. Replacing your starting right tackle that is ranked higher than the one you just picked up (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/ty-nsekhe/7636) for the sake of moving him isn’t good for anyone.