Tackle at #9, Dawkins to LG

[thebandit27]

3 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

We tried that best five in the field ordeal. Didn’t quite cut it.

1.  Piece of mind knowing what the 38th overall ranked tackle (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/dion-dawkins/11818) can do in your offense with comfortability to your qb is better than trying to reinvent the wheel. 

2. Replacing your starting right tackle that is ranked higher than the one you just picked up (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/ty-nsekhe/7636) for the sake of moving him isn’t good for anyone.

 

 

The best five from 2018 weren't good enough players, so I'd imagine very few options would've gone well.

 

Nsehke's best grades have all come at LT, but he also played OG in 2018, where he's not as effective.

 

But that's not really the point. 

 

Nsekhe has shown that he can be at least as effective at LT as Dawkins was last year, while Dawkins has shown in his short time at guard that he can be downright dominant at that spot.

 

"Don't mess with it" is a philosophy that is reserved for the successful; try-fail-adjust is what this team needs to be doing. I don't care what the final 5 looks like, but they should be exploring every possible option and combination to get it right.

[Bill_with_it]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The best five from 2018 weren't good enough players, so I'd imagine very few options would've gone well.

 

Nsehke's best grades have all come at LT, but he also played OG in 2018, where he's not as effective.

 

But that's not really the point. 

 

Nsekhe has shown that he can be at least as effective at LT as Dawkins was last year, while Dawkins has shown in his short time at guard that he can be downright dominant at that spot.

 

"Don't mess with it" is a philosophy that is reserved for the successful; try-fail-adjust is what this team needs to be doing. I don't care what the final 5 looks like, but they should be exploring every possible option and combination to get it right.

I disagree. For the team’s sake. What is more important for the offense and qbs is knowing what you have at lt. Which the o coord and tne qb both do oh by the way the guard doesn’t protect the second year rookies blind side.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The best five from 2018 weren't good enough players, so I'd imagine very few options would've gone well.

 

Nsehke's best grades have all come at LT, but he also played OG in 2018, where he's not as effective.

 

But that's not really the point. 

 

Nsekhe has shown that he can be at least as effective at LT as Dawkins was last year, while Dawkins has shown in his short time at guard that he can be downright dominant at that spot.

 

"Don't mess with it" is a philosophy that is reserved for the successful; try-fail-adjust is what this team needs to be doing. I don't care what the final 5 looks like, but they should be exploring every possible option and combination to get it right.

 

I am not as big of an Nsehke guy and to me you only move Dawkins to guard if you have decided he definitively is not your future left tackle. I don't think Nsehke is good enough to start messing about for a year or two with the position of a guy you still think could be your long term left tackle. 

 

I have always thought Dawkins' ceiling is higher at LG than any other position but if you move him then you need to look for a long term answer at LT because Nsehke both for age and talent is a sticking plaster solution and no more. 

[RyanC883]

On 3/20/2019 at 2:52 PM, metzelaars_lives said:

Not sure why no one is mentioning that we desperately need a linebacker.  Our starters are good but we have ZERO depth.

 

agreed.  taking White if he is there at 9 or getting a haul (switch 1 and get 2nd) from PIt or Balt.  

[thebandit27]

19 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

I disagree. For the team’s sake. What is more important for the offense and qbs is knowing what you have at lt. Which the o coord and tne qb both do oh by the way the guard doesn’t protect the second year rookies blind side.

 

So you'd rather go with a LT that admitted he played poorly in his second year instead of exploring options to upgrade because of familiarity?

 

That's not a good way to protect your young QB

[thebandit27]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not as big of an Nsehke guy and to me you only move Dawkins to guard if you have decided he definitively is not your future left tackle. I don't think Nsehke is good enough to start messing about for a year or two with the position of a guy you still think could be your long term left tackle. 

 

I have always thought Dawkins' ceiling is higher at LG than any other position but if you move him then you need to look for a long term answer at LT because Nsehke both for age and talent is a sticking plaster solution and no more. 

 

I wouldn't say that I'm settled on the idea that Dawkins isn't my future LT, but I am most definitely of the opinion that his best position is LG, and I think that the dropoff between Dawkins at Nsehke at LT is negligible at worst.

 

I would be looking at a guy like Scharping in round 3 to play RT, and then I'd draft a developmental LT on day 3.  Maybe I'm overconfident, but I haven't seen any evidence that teams have struggled to fill the pass-blocking LT spot in recent years, so if I have to find a guy on day 1 or 2 next year to slide into that role, I'm okay doing so.

[JBacks]

On 3/20/2019 at 7:45 PM, chris heff said:

The road to anything goes through New England. You beat Brady with a four and five man rush with pressure up the middle. If there is a guy available at 9 that excels at that, take him.

That's why I like Oliver. His ability to penetrate plus he's good against the run.

[Bill_with_it]

34 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

So you'd rather go with a LT that admitted he played poorly in his second year instead of exploring options to upgrade because of familiarity?

 

That's not a good way to protect your young QB

No I’d rather go with the best rated lt who is Dawkins. That he admitted he could play better is a feather in his cap! THANKS!

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

No I’d rather go with the best rated lt who is Dawkins. That he admitted he could play better is a feather in his cap! THANKS!

 

I'm glad that Dion wants to get better, but the fact that he didn't play as well at LT last year shouldn't be a feather in his cap.  At least not if you're looking for the line to improve.

 

If you want to hang your hat on PFF exclusively, then you should probably research Nsekhe a bit more than simply posting his overall grade, since he actually graded out better at LT than Dawkins in 2018.  His lower overall grade was due to his lower grade when playing LG.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-best-low-budget-options-available-in-free-agency

 

If you’re a team in need of short-term tackle help, there may be no better, or cheaper, option than the career backup. Calling him a backup does a disservice to how well the 33-year old has played in Washington though. On 1,287 snaps across every single position except center on the offensive line over the last four seasons, Nsekhe has a pass-blocking grade of 76.4 and a run-blocking grade of 70.

 

If you want to hang your hat on PFF exclusively, then you should probably research Nsekhe a bit more than simply posting his overall grade, since he actually graded out better at LT than Dawkins in 2018.  His lower overall grade was due to his lower grade when playing LG.

 

And again, this isn't about Dawkins or whether or not he can play LT. This is about doing what's necessary to get the best OL combination on the field. If that ends up being Dawkins at LT and Nsekhe at RT, great.  If that ends up with Dawkins kicking to LG, then that's great too.  There's no reason to be legalistic about it.

[Bill_with_it]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I'm glad that Dion wants to get better, but the fact that he didn't play as well at LT last year shouldn't be a feather in his cap.  At least not if you're looking for the line to improve.

 

If you want to hang your hat on PFF exclusively, then you should probably research Nsekhe a bit more than simply posting his overall grade, since he actually graded out better at LT than Dawkins in 2018.  His lower overall grade was due to his lower grade when playing LG.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-best-low-budget-options-available-in-free-agency

 

If you’re a team in need of short-term tackle help, there may be no better, or cheaper, option than the career backup. Calling him a backup does a disservice to how well the 33-year old has played in Washington though. On 1,287 snaps across every single position except center on the offensive line over the last four seasons, Nsekhe has a pass-blocking grade of 76.4 and a run-blocking grade of 70.

 

If you want to hang your hat on PFF exclusively, then you should probably research Nsekhe a bit more than simply posting his overall grade, since he actually graded out better at LT than Dawkins in 2018.  His lower overall grade was due to his lower grade when playing LG.

 

And again, this isn't about Dawkins or whether or not he can play LT. This is about doing what's necessary to get the best OL combination on the field. If that ends up being Dawkins at LT and Nsekhe at RT, great.  If that ends up with Dawkins kicking to LG, then that's great too.  There's no reason to be legalistic about it.

 

Look don’t act irrational I just showed you according to off Dawkins is ranked 5 higher not to mention our starting second year qb is familiar with him protecting his blind side. Don’t act ridiculous any normal person can see the advantage. Nsekhe isn’t even close. Maybe in training camp but definitely not now.

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I wouldn't say that I'm settled on the idea that Dawkins isn't my future LT

 

So while I agree totally with you his best position is LG I am not moving him from LT until I have the guy I think is my future franchise LT in the building and that guy is not Nsekhe.

[Bill_with_it]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So while I agree totally with you his best position is LG I am not moving him from LT until I have the guy I think is my future franchise LT in the building and that guy is not Nsekhe.

A guy that is worse than your current lt can’t be your lt. Especially when hen your qb ( 2nd year ) is comfortable with that lt.

[MrEpsYtown]

I think any tackle would be better at guard. Tackle is the more difficult position and that is why failed tackles are moved to guard. Tyron Smith is an awesome left tackle. He would be first ballot hall of fame at guard. This is an obvious concept in my opinion. 

 

The idea that Dawkins would be better at guard is pretty much true of every left tackle in the league. It's true, he would be better at guard, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great left tackle. The guy had a great 3 cone, 35 inch arms, and is a former defensive lineman so he is still a bit raw. Like Gunner said, you do not move him unless you know for sure he can't play tackle. Again this idea is coming from Mike Mayock's comments and like 7 plays during his rookie year. What about the like 600 plays he played awesome at left tackle  his rookie year? One is a small sample, and one is not. Yes he had  down year, and he admitted he got complacent. Sophomore slumps are not new. It happens. I think this is an idea that needs to die. 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not as big of an Nsehke guy and to me you only move Dawkins to guard if you have decided he definitively is not your future left tackle. I don't think Nsehke is good enough to start messing about for a year or two with the position of a guy you still think could be your long term left tackle. 

 

I have always thought Dawkins' ceiling is higher at LG than any other position but if you move him then you need to look for a long term answer at LT because Nsehke both for age and talent is a sticking plaster solution and no more. 

Agreed, and this is a very good thread.

 

I think that Dawkins is a good LT. By no means dominant mind you but good. Do you think that the Bills will want to sign him when his contract expires and give him 15 or 20 million per season to play LT? I am thinking maybe not.

 

If they can find a LT with a higher ceiling in the draft I want them to go for it. I always thought that Dawkins would make a top quality Guard.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Bill from NYC

[thebandit27]

30 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

 

Look don’t act irrational I just showed you according to off Dawkins is ranked 5 higher not to mention our starting second year qb is familiar with him protecting his blind side. Don’t act ridiculous any normal person can see the advantage. Nsekhe isn’t even close. Maybe in training camp but definitely not now.

 

It doesn't matter how many insults you sling, it doesn't make your argument stronger, so shelf that garbage and make a real argument.

 

The fact of the matter, as I showed you, is that Nsekhe's grade at LT is actually higher than Dawkins'...not that PFF grades should mean anything beyond a sidebar discussion point. Believe it or not, play on the field is what matters, not what a bunch of statisticians calculate in an office without having ever played the game.

 

And you're still missing the point--best combination of 5.  You want to be legalistic about it, and that's a very, very, very poor approach.  If you had your choice, Eric Wood never would've moved from RG to C...because "known quantity" and all that jazz.

 

14 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I think any tackle would be better at guard. Tackle is the more difficult position and that is why failed tackles are moved to guard. Tyron Smith is an awesome left tackle. He would be first ballot hall of fame at guard. This is an obvious concept in my opinion. 

 

The idea that Dawkins would be better at guard is pretty much true of every left tackle in the league. It's true, he would be better at guard, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great left tackle. The guy had a great 3 cone, 35 inch arms, and is a former defensive lineman so he is still a bit raw. Like Gunner said, you do not move him unless you know for sure he can't play tackle. Again this idea is coming from Mike Mayock's comments and like 7 plays during his rookie year. What about the like 600 plays he played awesome at left tackle  his rookie year? One is a small sample, and one is not. Yes he had  down year, and he admitted he got complacent. Sophomore slumps are not new. It happens. I think this is an idea that needs to die. 

 

I have to disagree.  While tackle is considered more difficult, a tackle-to-guard transition isn't always good for a player.  Look no further than Nsekhe; he's much better at LT than LG. Same went for Andrew Whitworth.  Cincinnati moved him to LG at two different points in his career (once in 2008 and once in 2013--both for stretches of games).  Now, they didn't do that because they thought he'd be better at LG, but rather because they had a shortage at the guard spots and felt that Whitworth at LG and a backup at LT was a better combination of 5 than the other alternatives.  But make no mistake, Whitworth is much better at tackle.  Guards need to be able to move down the line and work in close quarters, which can sometimes be more difficult than having space to establish a pass set and utilize arm length.

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

[Dr. Who]

11 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

It doesn't matter how many insults you sling, it doesn't make your argument stronger, so shelf that garbage and make a real argument.

 

The fact of the matter, as I showed you, is that Nsekhe's grade at LT is actually higher than Dawkins'...not that PFF grades should mean anything beyond a sidebar discussion point. Believe it or not, play on the field is what matters, not what a bunch of statisticians calculate in an office without having ever played the game.

 

And you're still missing the point--best combination of 5.  You want to be legalistic about it, and that's a very, very, very poor approach.  If you had your choice, Eric Wood never would've moved from RG to C...because "known quantity" and all that jazz.

 

 

I have to disagree.  While tackle is considered more difficult, a tackle-to-guard transition isn't always good for a player.  Look no further than Nsekhe; he's much better at LT than LG. Same went for Andrew Whitworth.  Cincinnati moved him to LG at two different points in his career (once in 2008 and once in 2013--both for stretches of games).  Now, they didn't do that because they thought he'd be better at LG, but rather because they had a shortage at the guard spots and felt that Whitworth at LG and a backup at LT was a better combination of 5 than the other alternatives.  But make no mistake, Whitworth is much better at tackle.  Guards need to be able to move down the line and work in close quarters, which can sometimes be more difficult than having space to establish a pass set and utilize arm length.

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

I think MrEpsYtown brings good insight. He's usually very perceptive about o-line in particular. Nonetheless, I agree with your argument.

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I think any tackle would be better at guard. Tackle is the more difficult position and that is why failed tackles are moved to guard. Tyron Smith is an awesome left tackle. He would be first ballot hall of fame at guard. This is an obvious concept in my opinion. 

 

The idea that Dawkins would be better at guard is pretty much true of every left tackle in the league. It's true, he would be better at guard, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great left tackle. The guy had a great 3 cone, 35 inch arms, and is a former defensive lineman so he is still a bit raw. Like Gunner said, you do not move him unless you know for sure he can't play tackle. Again this idea is coming from Mike Mayock's comments and like 7 plays during his rookie year. What about the like 600 plays he played awesome at left tackle  his rookie year? One is a small sample, and one is not. Yes he had  down year, and he admitted he got complacent. Sophomore slumps are not new. It happens. I think this is an idea that needs to die. 

 

I don't think he did play awesome at LT in his rookie year. I think he was decent but to me he is a middle of the league level starting LT. That said I remain not for replacing him at that spot until I have in the building a guy I think is a better long term left tackle than Dawkins. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think he did play awesome at LT in his rookie year. I think he was decent but to me he is a middle of the league level starting LT. That said I remain not for replacing him at that spot until I have in the building a guy I think is a better long term left tackle than Dawkins. 

 

There is some great all 22 film of him smashing people  at tackle in 2017 and I think a lot of that had to do with being next to Richie. 

[TigerJ]

34 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I think any tackle would be better at guard. Tackle is the more difficult position and that is why failed tackles are moved to guard. Tyron Smith is an awesome left tackle. He would be first ballot hall of fame at guard. This is an obvious concept in my opinion. 

 

The idea that Dawkins would be better at guard is pretty much true of every left tackle in the league. It's true, he would be better at guard, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great left tackle. The guy had a great 3 cone, 35 inch arms, and is a former defensive lineman so he is still a bit raw. Like Gunner said, you do not move him unless you know for sure he can't play tackle. Again this idea is coming from Mike Mayock's comments and like 7 plays during his rookie year. What about the like 600 plays he played awesome at left tackle  his rookie year? One is a small sample, and one is not. Yes he had  down year, and he admitted he got complacent. Sophomore slumps are not new. It happens. I think this is an idea that needs to die. 

That's not necessarily true.  Tackles do generally need quicker feet because they are more likely to be playing in space down in and down out.  However, some (not all) tackles have a tough time getting low enough to play guard.  Guards are generally lined up across the biggest, strongest players on defense.  They need to play low to get good leverage on defensive tackles, who often are not that tall.  Dawkins, not being a real tall tackle does not have a problem at guard.  He's plenty strong and plays with good leverage.  Nsekhe, as has been pointed out, can play guard, but is better at tackle.  The reason may will be his height and the associated leverage issues.  I'm not really an advocate of moving Dawkins inside though.  If he struggles again this year, as he did in 2018, I'll start thinking about it, but I think his problems at tackle this year had more to do with the unsettled situation at guard just to his right.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

 

My philosophy is slightly different. My view remains that LT and C are the cornerstone spots. So I am not moving guys from those spots until I am convinced I have better long term solutions. At the moment my belief is that the Bills' best two linemen both now and for the longer term are Dawkins and Morse. I want them at those two premium spots if possible.