NewEra Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 45 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Why not get better? Poyer is soft. His idea of "open field tackle" is getting stiff armed to the ground by WRs and RBs. It’s not about being soft. It’s about being able to cover WRs. That’s what makes our safety tandem so effective. They can disguise coverages he Poyer and Hyde are interchangeable and able to cover the WRs, poyer has 2 years left making less than 3 mill a year. collins may be better but I don’t know if he’s better for our scheme. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Neither are Poyer's. And he's not good at the line of scrimmage. Disagree with that. Poyer is very good in coverage. He misses the odd tackle but his coverage skills when the ball is in the air are excellent. I don't think he is mediocre. Not at all. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Collins to me is a similar situation to Mosely. Collins is a hitter. A physical tone setter at safety. But that isn't what people pay the big $$s for a safety these days. You have to be able to cover 1 on 1 and play the ball and take it away. The last two years Collins has defended 10 passes and had 4 INTs (Poyer has defended 19 passes and had 9 INTs for reference). That total lack of production in the critical elements of modern day safety play from Collins is why he is being allowed to walk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said: I think you better compare the stat lines and look again. The massive upgrade is in name recognition only. Poyer should have made the Probowl the last 2 years, not Collins. It’s not name recognition at all. Jordan Poyer is one of the worst tackling starting safeties in the league. He gets trucked and stiff armed to the ground weekly Collins lays the wood. He is much better than Poyer all around. Poyer is a better centerfielder but we already have that in Hyde... Collins would be a stud Edited March 6, 2019 by Buffalo716 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: It’s not name recognition at all. Jordan Poyer is one of the worst tackling starting safeties in the league. He gets trucked and stiff armed to the ground weekly Collins lays the wood. He is much better than Poyer all around. Poyer is a better centerfielder but we already have that in Hyde... Collins would be a stud He lays the wood... and moves like he is made of it. I am 100% with formerlyofCtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Just now, GunnerBill said: He lays the wood... and moves like he is made of it. I am 100% with formerlyofCtown. You can have your opinion but not 1 GM would say he is better than Poyer if the price was the same not 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Just now, Buffalo716 said: You can have your opinion but not 1 GM would say he is better than Poyer if the price was the same not 1 I think you mistyped that. And in any event the price isn't the same is it? Landon Collins is a good hitter. A good tackler. But he is sub par in coverage. That is why he is being allowed to walk because nobody pays big money these days to safeties who are sub par in coverage. I don't think Jordan Poyer is the greatest safety in the world I think he is a good starting safety with excellent coverage skills. He is certainly not mediocre. Collins is very good at what he does but he has a skillset that is less valued in the modern NFL and I would have to pay more for that than what I have. It makes no sense to me. Especially how this Bills defense is built. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: It’s not name recognition at all. Jordan Poyer is one of the worst tackling starting safeties in the league. He gets trucked and stiff armed to the ground weekly Collins lays the wood. He is much better than Poyer all around. Poyer is a better centerfielder but we already have that in Hyde... Collins would be a stud Yes Poyer and his 100 tackles. 9 Ints the last teo years. Collins has 8 for his entire career. Poyers 2 sacks. All around would require passrush and cover skills. You bring up one thing that in your opinion Collins does better. Poyer does everything else better but you say Collins is better all around. You just lost any credibility. If Collins was what some of you are making him out to be, then the Giants would not be letting him go anywhere. Edited March 6, 2019 by formerlyofCtown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think you mistyped that. And in any event the price isn't the same is it? Landon Collins is a good hitter. A good tackler. But he is sub par in coverage. That is why he is being allowed to walk because nobody pays big money these days to safeties who are sub par in coverage. I don't think Jordan Poyer is the greatest safety in the world I think he is a good starting safety with excellent coverage skills. He is certainly not mediocre. Collins is very good at what he does but he has a skillset that is less valued in the modern NFL and I would have to pay more for that than what I have. It makes no sense to me. Especially how this Bills defense is built. He isn’t being franchised because it would be dumb to franchise a safety and pay him that much. He isn’t Ed Reed, but HE IS better than Poyer im not talking money or anything else. He is a better complete football player... you are acting like Collins is mediocre Poyer has better coverage skills and is WEAK against the run. Collins is average in coverage , certainly not sub par and is one of the best in the box safeties Hyde and Poyer cannot Tackle RBs and Hyde is better than Poyer. It’s certainly an upgradable position. i never said cut Poyer, but he’s certainly upgradable over the next couple years. Collins contract will show he has more value than Poyer 6 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said: Yes Poyer and his 100 tackles. 9 Ints the last teo years. Collins has 8 for his entire career. Poyers 2 sacks. All around would require passrush and cover skills. You bring up one thing that in your opinion Collins does better. Poyer does everything else better but you say Collins is better all around. You just lost any credibility. If Collins was what some of you are making him out to be, then the Giants would not be letting him go anywhere. Paying a safety 12 million is ridiculous. The market will show GMs value Collins over Poyer with the contract size Collins has been an ALL PRO that isn’t handed away. It means he was the best safety in the world that year Edited March 6, 2019 by Buffalo716 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: He isn’t being franchised because it would be dumb to franchise a safety and pay him that much. He isn’t Ed Reed, but HE IS better than Poyer im not talking money or anything else. He is a better complete football player... you are acting like Collins is mediocre Poyer has better coverage skills and is WEAK against the run. Collins is average in coverage , certainly not sub par and is one of the best in the box safeties Hyde and Poyer cannot Tackle RBs and Hyde is better than Poyer. It’s certainly an upgradable position. i never said cut Poyer, but he’s certainly upgradable over the next couple years. Collins contract will show he has more value than Poyer Paying a safety 12 million is ridiculous. The market will show GMs value Collins over Poyer with the contract size Collins has been an ALL PRO that isn’t handed away. It means he was the best safety in the world that year That is what Collins will get. 17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: He isn’t being franchised because it would be dumb to franchise a safety and pay him that much. He isn’t Ed Reed, but HE IS better than Poyer im not talking money or anything else. He is a better complete football player... you are acting like Collins is mediocre Poyer has better coverage skills and is WEAK against the run. Collins is average in coverage , certainly not sub par and is one of the best in the box safeties Hyde and Poyer cannot Tackle RBs and Hyde is better than Poyer. It’s certainly an upgradable position. i never said cut Poyer, but he’s certainly upgradable over the next couple years. Collins contract will show he has more value than Poyer Paying a safety 12 million is ridiculous. The market will show GMs value Collins over Poyer with the contract size Collins has been an ALL PRO that isn’t handed away. It means he was the best safety in the world that year Poyer didnt play at the level he has in Buf. Before he came here. So youre making an irrelevant statement. Also, what do offenses do in the NFL? They pass the ball. Collins would be too expensive to be the Hybrid Safety in the big nickel. Edited March 6, 2019 by formerlyofCtown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: He isn’t being franchised because it would be dumb to franchise a safety and pay him that much. He isn’t Ed Reed, but HE IS better than Poyer im not talking money or anything else. He is a better complete football player... you are acting like Collins is mediocre Poyer has better coverage skills and is WEAK against the run. Collins is average in coverage , certainly not sub par and is one of the best in the box safeties Hyde and Poyer cannot Tackle RBs and Hyde is better than Poyer. It’s certainly an upgradable position. i never said cut Poyer, but he’s certainly upgradable over the next couple years. Collins contract will show he has more value than Poyer Paying a safety 12 million is ridiculous. The market will show GMs value Collins over Poyer with the contract size I am not acting like Collins is mediocre. But I disagree on his coverage skills. They are sub par. And that is the reason he is being allowed to walk. If you are paying a safety big money in the modern NFL then he better be making plays on the football. The report isn't just that they are not tagging him. It is that they are letting him walk. I think there is not much difference in overall ability between the two players and Poyer's skillset is a more modern NFL fit and a better fit for this scheme. McDermott didn't end up with two former corners at safety by accident. It was by design. Landon Collins will get a bigger contract than Poyer. For sure. But if Poyer became a FA tomorrow there is absolutely no way an NFL team would get him for the contract he is on in Buffalo. He is being underpaid by reference to his performances in Buffalo because they got him before he had established himself. If Poyer hit the open market tomorrow he would sign a bigger deal than the one Hyde is on currently. There has been whispers of a possible holdout from Poyer this offseason because he knows he is underpaid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston's #1 Bills Fan Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Disagree with that. Poyer is very good in coverage. He misses the odd tackle but his coverage skills when the ball is in the air are excellent. I don't think he is mediocre. Not at all. Totally agree. Our secondary is the one shiny part that doesn't need a lot when there are SO many greater needs. I think Poyer does fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I am not acting like Collins is mediocre. But I disagree on his coverage skills. They are sub par. And that is the reason he is being allowed to walk. If you are paying a safety big money in the modern NFL then he better be making plays on the football. The report isn't just that they are not tagging him. It is that they are letting him walk. I think there is not much difference in overall ability between the two players and Poyer's skillset is a more modern NFL fit and a better fit for this scheme. McDermott didn't end up with two former corners at safety by accident. It was by design. Landon Collins will get a bigger contract than Poyer. For sure. But if Poyer became a FA tomorrow there is absolutely no way an NFL team would get him for the contract he is on in Buffalo. He is being underpaid by reference to his performances in Buffalo because they got him before he had established himself. If Poyer hit the open market tomorrow he would sign a bigger deal than the one Hyde is on currently. There has been whispers of a possible holdout from Poyer this offseason because he knows he is underpaid. We let stephon Gilmore walk ... many deemed him overrated and average... not worth the money i played defensive back in college I know how hard it is and the nuances that go with it ... i always said Gilmore was underrated and closer to being an all pro than average... and he would get huge bucks in FA... he did all those Poyer, certainly Has improved his value... he is a good system safety. McDermott is the best Dbacks coach in the NFL... he puts all of our DBs in the best situation But he needs to work on his physicality because he gets put down way to much for a starting NFL safety. He plays like a converted corner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: We let stephon Gilmore walk ... many deemed him overrated and average... not worth the money i played defensive back in college I know how hard it is and the nuances that go with it ... i always said Gilmore was underrated and closer to being an all pro than average... and he would get huge bucks in FA... he did all those Poyer, certainly Has improved his value... he is a good system safety. McDermott is the best Dbacks coach in the NFL... he puts all of our DBs in the best situation But he needs to work on his physicality because he gets put down way to much for a starting NFL safety. He plays like a converted corner I said letting Gilmore walk was a mistake and that he would get big money too. But while I confess Gilmore's INT numbers were never close to elite.... his passes defensed numbers in Buffalo were outstanding. He didn't come down with enough but he could cover and make plays on the ball. That is what gets you paid in the modern NFL as a DB. Hitting is nice. Tackling is nice... but that isn't the primary skill anymore. Can you cover 1 on 1 and make plays when the ball is in the air. If you can you will get paid the big bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I said letting Gilmore walk was a mistake and that he would get big money too. But while I confess Gilmore's INT numbers were never close to elite.... his passes defensed numbers in Buffalo were outstanding. He didn't come down with enough but he could cover and make plays on the ball. That is what gets you paid in the modern NFL as a DB. Hitting is nice. Tackling is nice... but that isn't the primary skill anymore. Can you cover 1 on 1 and make plays when the ball is in the air. If you can you will get paid the big bucks. The thing is my friend most safeties don’t cover 1 on 1 very rarely is 0 coverage called with straight man across the board cover 1 is used more but still not all the time... maybe 25 %... that’s high too McDermott Uses way more zone coverage.... cover 3 and 2 being his primary favorites... Poyer and Hyde are covering areas far more than just men... now when a man enters your zone it obviously becomes a man situation but your football smarts should put you in the right spot they are watching the QBs eyes not turning and running with WRs now if we still had Rex you could expect a fair amount of cover 0 and 1 but not that much with McD Edited March 6, 2019 by Buffalo716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Just now, Buffalo716 said: The thing is my friend most safeties don’t cover 1 on 1 very rarely is 0 coverage called with straight man across the board cover 1 is used more but still not all the time... McDermott Uses way more zone coverage.... cover 3 and 2 being his primary favorites... Poyer and Hyde are covering areas far more than just men... now when a man enters your zone it obviously becomes a man situation but your football smarts should put you in the right spot they are watching the QBs eyes not turning and running with WRs now if we still had Rex you could expect a fair amount of cover 0 and 1 but not that much with McD I know what defense McDermott runs and I also know he wants guys with that ability to cover 1 on 1 when called on and the receiver is in their area of the field. That is why he has two former corners back there. And it is why he is unlikely to see a value in an old school hitter. It just isn't the game anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I know what defense McDermott runs and I also know he wants guys with that ability to cover 1 on 1 when called on and the receiver is in their area of the field. That is why he has two former corners back there. And it is why he is unlikely to see a value in an old school hitter. It just isn't the game anymore. Jamal Adams went top 10 and he is more of a banger than converge corner they are still valued its a moot point we are arguing... we will never know how much Poyer is valued ... only by how long he is kept he isn’t an all pro. Like Collins thats the only fact Edited March 6, 2019 by Buffalo716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinxedBill1 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: There you go. Let Poyer cheat on his wife and bang state college coeds in some other NFL towns. Living the dream man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 28 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Jamal Adams went top 10 and he is more of a banger than converge corner they are still valued its a moot point we are arguing... we will never know how much Poyer is valued ... only by how long he is kept he isn’t an all pro. Like Collins thats the only fact Jamal Adams has way better ball skills than Collins and moves significantly better. That is a bad comp. That All Pro year is absolutely the exception and not the rule of Collins career. If he had played 4 years the way he played that season he would not have been allowed to walk. Because that year he had more pass breakups and more INTs than the following two years combined. He hasn't played nearly as well the past two seasons and at times last year was bordering on a liability in coverage he was so stiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Jamal Adams has way better ball skills than Collins and moves significantly better. That is a bad comp. That All Pro year is absolutely the exception and not the rule of Collins career. If he had played 4 years the way he played that season he would not have been allowed to walk. Because that year he had more pass breakups and more INTs than the following two years combined. He hasn't played nearly as well the past two seasons and at times last year was bordering on a liability in coverage he was so stiff. Good players are allowed to walk. He isn’t a bum because they didn’t re sign him and analytics do not say he was a liability as for Adams, he hasn’t shown to be a ball hawk in the league. But he does have great instincts and is a hitter.. and he is a great safety Collins had about 2 really bad games in coverage last year where he was being ran by consistently... his analytics even show he was better in man than zone too last year... Edited March 6, 2019 by Buffalo716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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