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Poor O-Line play is league-wide problem not just Bills


Inigo Montoya

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9 hours ago, Jasovon said:

Just do whatever the patriots do. They make scrubs off the street into all pros. 

 

I agree. What the Patriots do is the find lineman from the college teams that still actually coach linemen how to play. Iowa, Georgia, Wisconsin, NC State and some of the smaller schools with pro style type of offenses. Shaq Mason came from Georgia Tech, where all they did was run the ball. Norte Dame guys work too. 

 

To me that is the issue, and the answer. Too many spread type offenses in college do not properly prepare linemen for success in the NFL. Guys get picked high becuase of projection, see Joeckel, Luke (2013's Jonah Williams). Guys from universities that teach linemen the right way are the way to draft. 

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My take is that teams for whatever reason attempt to build the defensive line before the offensive line and use more resources on the defense. This looks like what the Buffalo Bills have done for almost two decades as each regime change required different defensive schemes and they kept rebuilding the defense over and over while neglecting the offensive line.

 

The crazy thing about the superior talent on the offensive line is "IF" you find the right players they usually tend to last eight years or more. Eric Woods played nine seasons. Richie Incognito played roughly ten seasons. Andy Levitre is still playing for LG Atlanta after 10 seasons in the league. Teams just need to put the resources into their lines.

 

 

The Indy Colts went from 22nd in the NFL with their offensive line to drafting an OG with the 6th pick and then went to #3 in the NFL. Thus giving Andrew Luck the time to throw for 4461yards and 39 TD passes. while being sacked a mere 18 times.  That number is down from 56 sacks in 2017 with Jacoby Brissett at QB. The Colts have three first-round picks at LT, LG, OC and a second round pick at RT. 

 

The top five offensive lines in the league in 2018 were Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indy, NE, Philly and the next five were Rams, Packers, Saints, Titans, Ravens. Just a note that the Patriots managed to neutralize the best defensive line player in the league in DT Aaron Donald who had 20.5 sacks in the regular season and only one hit on Goff in the SB.

 

Like someone else stated the Buffalo Bills was pretty good with Glenn, Incognito, Woods and just needed better talent at RG, RT. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, wiskibreth said:

Then how do you explain the emergence of their dominant running attack?

I expressed a concern, not a rejection of the prospect that Brown might be the real deal. I gave the fella a thumbs up for his idea, after all.

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4 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

 

9 is a bit much.  Allen, Foster, Jones, and McKenzie belong on this 11.  I’m with you we need an O Line, TE, and two WR’s.  That makes 7 by my Oswego math ( sorry for my colleagues who also went to Oswego).   Tasker, you make very good points, and I’m on record stating we need two marque O Lineman, and two WR in free agency, and 10 picks to fill a lot of holes.

 

Dan on Press Pass mentioned yesterday (NFLR), Long played well as a starting G, but b/c his hand was busted up he had to be moved from C.  So if true we then need 3-4 offense starters from the draft.  So many if’s it’s just speculation.

 

You kind of lost me there.  Allen's there by default until further notice and also what McBeane's future in Buffalo is directly tied to; Foster had four good games and never did anything in college.  I left him out as a benefit of the doubt, but  he had as many poor games as he did good ones.  I think it's a bit premature to insist that he's a bona fide starter.  Two of his 100-yard games were against the Jets and what is perceived as his success is largely predicated upon three or four deep balls accounting for about 200 yards and 2 of his 3 TDs.  That's typically not a good formula for sustained success.  The jury's definitely out there in spite of the fact that I gave him a benefit of the doubt.  

 

Not sure why you'd suggest McKenzie, he didn't do much of anything on offense.  Am I missing something?  

 

As to Jones, he ranked 176th in the league in catch%.  Can't complain about dropped passes w/o citing him as one of the primary reasons.  Either way, I can't say that I'm happy with him occupying one of the 11 starting spots.  My expectations much less hopes for a starting WR, one of 2 in that 11, are notably greater.  

 

Either way, so you're saying that you're comfortable going into the season with Jones, Foster, and McKenzie, or two of those three at 2 of 11 starting rosters spots?  

 

Not me.  Maybe Foster pending second year developments, but that's it after him and IMO they should have a much better prospect at the team's #1 WR next to Foster if they're going to try that. 

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2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

My take is that teams for whatever reason attempt to build the defensive line before the offensive line and use more resources on the defense. This looks like what the Buffalo Bills have done for almost two decades as each regime change required different defensive schemes and they kept rebuilding the defense over and over while neglecting the offensive line.

 

The crazy thing about the superior talent on the offensive line is "IF" you find the right players they usually tend to last eight years or more. Eric Woods played nine seasons. Richie Incognito played roughly ten seasons. Andy Levitre is still playing for LG Atlanta after 10 seasons in the league. Teams just need to put the resources into their lines.

 

 

The Indy Colts went from 22nd in the NFL with their offensive line to drafting an OG with the 6th pick and then went to #3 in the NFL. Thus giving Andrew Luck the time to throw for 4461yards and 39 TD passes. while being sacked a mere 18 times.  That number is down from 56 sacks in 2017 with Jacoby Brissett at QB. The Colts have three first-round picks at LT, LG, OC and a second round pick at RT. 

 

The top five offensive lines in the league in 2018 were Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indy, NE, Philly and the next five were Rams, Packers, Saints, Titans, Ravens. Just a note that the Patriots managed to neutralize the best defensive line player in the league in DT Aaron Donald who had 20.5 sacks in the regular season and only one hit on Goff in the SB.

 

Like someone else stated the Buffalo Bills was pretty good with Glenn, Incognito, Woods and just needed better talent at RG, RT. 

 

 

 

Going back to the Patriots, the highest drafted guy is Joe Tuney who was a 3rd rounder. They use mid round resources to grab guys from great football programs. Every once in awhile they use a first rounder on a left tackle like Wynn or Nate Solder.

 

When you look at those top ten offensive lines in the NFL, only Quentin Nelson, Ronnie Stanley, Lane Johnson, Jack Conklin and Greg Robinson were top ten picks. Robinson is a bust on his third team who seemed to figure it out and Conklin only played in 9 games. That's five guys out of 50 starting linemen. 

 

I agree with you in that you have to find the right players. But I also feel that the top ten is not the place ever to do it, unless you ar getting an elite can't miss guy like Nelson. Simply find the right guys in the middle to late part of the draft. 

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14 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Going back to the Patriots, the highest drafted guy is Joe Tuney who was a 3rd rounder. They use mid round resources to grab guys from great football programs. Every once in awhile they use a first rounder on a left tackle like Wynn or Nate Solder.

 

When you look at those top ten offensive lines in the NFL, only Quentin Nelson, Ronnie Stanley, Lane Johnson, Jack Conklin and Greg Robinson were top ten picks. Robinson is a bust on his third team who seemed to figure it out and Conklin only played in 9 games. That's five guys out of 50 starting linemen. 

 

I agree with you in that you have to find the right players. But I also feel that the top ten is not the place ever to do it. Simply find the right guys in the middle to late part of the draft. 

 

I agree with MrEpSYTown that the Patriots target linemen from schools who teach NFL fundamentals.

 

They have also keep bringing Dante Scarnecchia out of quasi-retirement to coach their o-line back up... the guy knows what he is doing and gets the most from their o-line players.

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8 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

I agree with MrEpSYTown that the Patriots target linemen from schools who teach NFL fundamentals.

 

They have also keep bringing Dante Scarnecchia out of quasi-retirement to coach their o-line back up... the guy knows what he is doing and gets the most from their o-line players.

Well, the Bills don't have him, or anyone close in either the coaching or talent evaluation process. He's about as close to a bona fide "guru" as there is among position coaches in the NFL today. And he's a quasi scout for them as well.

 

I remember when we brought in McNally.  He basically said, "I can only do so much with what I'm given." 

 

He didn't hang around long.

 

He did point out the potential of Jason Peters, which management really failed to understand.

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Going back to the Patriots, the highest drafted guy is Joe Tuney who was a 3rd rounder. They use mid round resources to grab guys from great football programs. Every once in awhile they use a first rounder on a left tackle like Wynn or Nate Solder.

 

When you look at those top ten offensive lines in the NFL, only Quentin Nelson, Ronnie Stanley, Lane Johnson, Jack Conklin and Greg Robinson were top ten picks. Robinson is a bust on his third team who seemed to figure it out and Conklin only played in 9 games. That's five guys out of 50 starting linemen. 

 

I agree with you in that you have to find the right players. But I also feel that the top ten is not the place ever to do it, unless you ar getting an elite can't miss guy like Nelson. Simply find the right guys in the middle to late part of the draft.

 

 

Well you're missing a few guys...who may not be Anthony Munoz/Orlando Pace/Jason Peters class, but they are big pieces of some of the best offenses in the league.

 

And the theory really sounds great...and its a great strategy...if it works.

 

But Jason Peters was 15 years ago and that was the last middle to late part of the draft OL that was worth anything.

15 years is a long time to prove a theory, right or wrong. 

 

In this case, the theory is...pretty wrong.

 

What you're advocating is basically what the Bills have been doing forever. 

Once in a while they'll take someone in the 1st or 2nd, most have worked, Mike Williams and CK didn't.

 

But these middle to late rounders have been nonexistent. And the Bills O has spent most of the time in the bottom 3rd of the league and playoffs appearances are..well.

 

Its time to go in another direction.

 

A big "you never do" thing is let your OL get to this state of affairs...ever. 

 

Its difficult enough to find 1 or 2 starters, much less 4.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Apparently management did understand as they converted him from a tight end and he became an All Pro here, didn't he?

Coaching did, not management.  I was referring more of Russ "You're not a priority, Jason, Lee Evans is a priority" Brandon.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CookieG said:

 

Well you're missing a few guys...who may not be Anthony Munoz/Orlando Pace/Jason Peters class, but they are big pieces of some of the best offenses in the league.

 

And the theory really sounds great...and its a great strategy...if it works.

 

But Jason Peters was 15 years ago and that was the last middle to late part of the draft OL that was worth anything.

15 years is a long time to prove a theory, right or wrong. 

 

In this case, the theory is...pretty wrong.

 

What you're advocating is basically what the Bills have been doing forever. 

Once in a while they'll take someone in the 1st or 2nd, most have worked, Mike Williams and CK didn't.

 

But these middle to late rounders have been nonexistent. And the Bills O has spent most of the time in the bottom 3rd of the league and playoffs appearances are..well.

 

Its time to go in another direction.

 

A big "you never do" thing is let your OL get to this state of affairs...ever. 

 

Its difficult enough to find 1 or 2 starters, much less 4.

 

 

Coaching did, not management.  I was referring more of Russ "You're not a priority, Jason, Lee Evans is a priority" Brandon.

 

 

 

I don't think I missed anybody. 5 starting linemen out of 50 who were top ten picks. First round picks? Yeah there are more. But out of those top ten o lines, just five top ten picks. 

 

You are missing one big point, and that is that the Bills have done a ***** job of doing anything for the last 15-20 years or so. That has absolutely nothing to do with the current regime. Sure this concept has not worked for us, but it has worked with pretty much every other good team in the league. 

 

A lot of people want to go ahead and draft Jonah Williams in the top ten. He looked like garbage when playing against NFL level competition, and there are a whole bunch of questions if he can even stick at tackle. Making a pick like that is simply idiotic. It's a reach, and it's what gets GMs fired. 

 

This team hasnt really bothered to draft many offensive linemen in the mid to late rounds. There are years in which they drafted no linemen at all. I like the thought process of the Teller and Dawkins picks. That's what I want to see more of. Not reaches in the first round. 

 

Please tell me who all all of these amazing top ten picked offensive linemen are around the league. If you look at the playoff teams is year there are a few. Tyron Smith, Eric Fisher (largely considered a bust), Ronnie Stanley, Russel Okung (not his original team), Quentin Nelson, Lane Johnson. That's six guys who were drafted in the top ten. 

 

If you want to look at top offenses in the NFL, KC had Fisher, Indy had Nelson, the Chargers had Okung, and the Falcons had Mathews and Mack. That's 5 guys. Those are the only top ten drafted offensive linemen who are starting on the top ten scoring offenses in the NFL in 2018. Fisher is considered a bust, and Okung and Mack are not with the teams who drafted them. What you do see is a ton of late first round picks, second round and third round picks, and UDFAs. 

 

Joe Thomas really did a ton to help the Browns be winners. The Titans have a left tackle drafted eleventh and a right tackle drafted eight, and they still suck. And their best lineman is their left guard who went undrafted. It's about using resources wisely and building a team. There is not really a formula, but reaching in the top ten to fill a hole is the worst thing you can do. 

 

This is not not a theory, it is a fact. There are so many busted top ten linemen in the NFL and it is a terrible place to reach for a guy to fill a hole. Draft BPA and do not draft for need. Be wise and target the guys in the mid rounds who can will fit what you what to do and will improve your team. 

 

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17 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

This true but we had a pretty good line until we lost Glenn , Ritchie and Wood.

We had one of the best lines even with Mills at RT if that tells you anything.

49 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I don't think I missed anybody. 5 starting linemen out of 50 who were top ten picks. First round picks? Yeah there are more. But out of those top ten o lines, just five top ten picks. 

 

You are missing one big point, and that is that the Bills have done a ***** job of doing anything for the last 15-20 years or so. That has absolutely nothing to do with the current regime. Sure this concept has not worked for us, but it has worked with pretty much every other good team in the league. 

 

A lot of people want to go ahead and draft Jonah Williams in the top ten. He looked like garbage when playing against NFL level competition, and there are a whole bunch of questions if he can even stick at tackle. Making a pick like that is simply idiotic. It's a reach, and it's what gets GMs fired. 

 

This team hasnt really bothered to draft many offensive linemen in the mid to late rounds. There are years in which they drafted no linemen at all. I like the thought process of the Teller and Dawkins picks. That's what I want to see more of. Not reaches in the first round. 

 

Please tell me who all all of these amazing top ten picked offensive linemen are around the league. If you look at the playoff teams is year there are a few. Tyron Smith, Eric Fisher (largely considered a bust), Ronnie Stanley, Russel Okung (not his original team), Quentin Nelson, Lane Johnson. That's six guys who were drafted in the top ten. 

 

If you want to look at top offenses in the NFL, KC had Fisher, Indy had Nelson, the Chargers had Okung, and the Falcons had Mathews and Mack. That's 5 guys. Those are the only top ten drafted offensive linemen who are starting on the top ten scoring offenses in the NFL in 2018. Fisher is considered a bust, and Okung and Mack are not with the teams who drafted them. What you do see is a ton of late first round picks, second round and third round picks, and UDFAs. 

 

Joe Thomas really did a ton to help the Browns be winners. The Titans have a left tackle drafted eleventh and a right tackle drafted eight, and they still suck. And their best lineman is their left guard who went undrafted. It's about using resources wisely and building a team. There is not really a formula, but reaching in the top ten to fill a hole is the worst thing you can do. 

 

This is not not a theory, it is a fact. There are so many busted top ten linemen in the NFL and it is a terrible place to reach for a guy to fill a hole. Draft BPA and do not draft for need. Be wise and target the guys in the mid rounds who can will fit what you what to do and will improve your team. 

 

And then Indy got two ProBowlers in the first.  Maybe it has something to do with who is making the picks and scouting the players.

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You look for competitive advantages wherever you can find them and with the relatively weak OL crop in the NFL today, OL is a great area to target. If we're going to overspend a little in FA, let it be for good OL talent first. We MUST reignite our running game if we have any hope of reaching the playoffs in 2019. Pass protection would be nice too, but we can't rely on Allen's legs or become 1 dimensional on offense.

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2 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

We had one of the best lines even with Mills at RT if that tells you anything.

And then Indy got two ProBowlers in the first.  Maybe it has something to do with who is making the picks and scouting the players.

 

Seldom does it happen and usually only at the top of the draft that there is one player that clearly stands above the rest so that you'd ignore your needs and select the clear BPA. Instead, you're probably looking at several players with very similar scores, in which case you take the one that fills the greatest need. Yes to BPA, but only when it applies. I think the BPA argument can sometimes be overblown, especially after the first or second round. You also have to look at points where the talent level drops precipitously for positions of need.

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2 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

We had one of the best lines even with Mills at RT if that tells you anything.

 

 

Just think how good it would have been had we replaced him, guy was a turnstile and now is just ok. Every year i think we are replacing him and yet he is still here. However i believe this is the year.

 

 

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It's both.  This is the old Nature vs Nurture argument:  Nature (strength, size, speed) vs nurture (skill, scheme).  A great player (Joe D, e.g.) with an average O-line coach would probably have a similar outcome to the season as an average player with a great O-line coach (Dante Scarnecchia).  Realistically, we need to shoot for a coach and players that aren't necessarily great, but better than average.  Good, perhaps.  If we had good players on the O-line with a good coach to boot, well....milk my whistle.  That would be outstanding!

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Just on Eric Fisher particularly I don't know who considers him a bust? Maybe after his rookie year where he really struggled but he has been a solid LT since then and the Chiefs certainly don't as they paid pretty good money to extend him. He isn't a top flight left tackle that is for sure but he is an above average one, has missed only 5 games in 6 seasons since he came into the league and is certainly not a bust.

 

It is fair to ask whether he has played up to his #1 pick status but then I think you have to keep in mind he was the #1 pick in the worst draft in living memory. Just having a player from that first round who is still starting in the league 5 years later is a slam dunk. 

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4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

 

Seldom does it happen and usually only at the top of the draft that there is one player that clearly stands above the rest so that you'd ignore your needs and select the clear BPA. Instead, you're probably looking at several players with very similar scores, in which case you take the one that fills the greatest need. Yes to BPA, but only when it applies. I think the BPA argument can sometimes be overblown, especially after the first or second round. You also have to look at points where the talent level drops precipitously for positions of need.

This is why you see draft day trades.  If they have a guy that is rated high enough at a position of need they will go up and get him.  They will move down if they think the value isnt there and pick up more ammo possibly to take a shot at a high risk high reward guy with the extra picks.  You definitely are correct though If they have a need in front of them with a sufficient grade they will take him.  You cant draft the same position every year.

4 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Just think how good it would have been had we replaced him, guy was a turnstile and now is just ok. Every year i think we are replacing him and yet he is still here. However i believe this is the year.

 

 

If a better option is obtainable, but you could do much worse.

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