Poor O-Line play is league-wide problem not just Bills

[freddyjj]

As previously mentioned, there are 2 main causes. 

 

A dearth of players coming out of college familiar with 3 point stance, blitz pickup and run block schemes necessary for pro game.  Its why Wisc, Michigan, Iowa and Nebraska send so many Olinemen to the pros.

 

And with 20-30% roster turnover year to year in NFL it means most team lose at least one starter.  To build cohesion in a new line is hard given CBA restrictions in practice.

 

May be why going young FA with scheme familiarity might trump a draft choice in the case of OBD this year.  Any draft choice in Rds 1-3 will likeley be asked to start.  Can see OBD taking a player in draft to start and also signing another FA to start.

 

 

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Indeed. Which is why the contact time in the NFL where coaches can get hands on is even more important. 

 

On the Patriots I'd add two other things - firstly their line often starts the season slow. They have on more than one occasion had 3 or 4 different starting combinations through 6 games and they are not afraid to move guys about and try them in different spots in that period. They always improve as the season goes and come on down the stretch and as you say a lot of that is coaching.[/n[

 

Secondly they have adjusted schematically. From about 2008 Belichick saw the way it was going and they run as many spread concepts as anyone in the league with empty formations and tight ends and backs lining up wide. Their offense is predicated on fast developing plays to get the ball out of Brady's hand inside 2.5 seconds and that assists the line too. It is also a reason they get called for so few holds. If I am the Patriots left tackle I don't need to grab because if I disrupt the rusher and redirect him then I am confident the ball will be gone before he gets to Tom. It is why I wouldn't touch Trent Brown in FA and why Nate Solder hasn't quite lived up to his price tag in New York (though in fairness I think he played better than some of the coverage would suggest). 

The Patriots under BB is ahead of the coaching curve. Their OL coach is the best in the business. There is no doubt that there is less stress on their OL because of Brady's quick release. (As you noted. ) And also as you noted in the beginning of the season there is a lot of jumbling of the lines. There is a purpose behind the jumbling of players. So if called upon the players are better equipped to play multiple positions. In addition, backup line players are played on a limited basis for a purpose. So when the inevitable injuries occur the replacing players are better prepared to replace the injured player and maintain the continuity of the line.  

 

The HOF coach in NE has created an environment where there is an attention to detail and preparation for all circumstances. They go so far as to practice quickly handing the ball to the referee so at the end of the game seconds are not wasted. In a league of parity organizational culture emphasizing details does make the difference.  

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

The Patriots under BB is ahead of the coaching curve. Their OL coach is the best in the business. There is no doubt that there is less stress on their OL because of Brady's quick release. (As you noted. ) And also as you noted in the beginning of the season there is a lot of jumbling of the lines. There is a purpose behind the jumbling of players. So if called upon the players are better equipped to play multiple positions. In addition, backup line players are played on a limited basis for a purpose. So when the inevitable injuries occur the replacing players are better prepared to replace the injured player and maintain the continuity of the line.  

 

The HOF coach in NE has created an environment where there is an attention to detail and preparation for all circumstances. They go so far as to practice quickly handing the ball to the referee so at the end of the game seconds are not wasted. In a league of parity organizational culture emphasizing details does make the difference.  

Well, you say you're not a bolder, but I think you may be a Sunday bolder nonetheless . . . ?

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, you say you're not a bolder, but I think you may be a Sunday bolder nonetheless . . . ?

 

Something is going on with my posting that is causing the highlighting. If you or anyone else knows what I am doing to cause it I would appreciate the assistance. I don't want to get the reputation of being a screamer. That's not the type of guy that I am. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, JohnC said:

Something is going on with my posting that is causing the highlighting. If you or anyone else knows what I am doing to cause it I would appreciate the assistance. I don't want to get the reputation of being a screamer. That's not the type of guy that I am. 

I was just teasing you. My guess is that you are trying to bold part of a quote and somehow that is bleeding into your response. I'm about 180 degrees from a tekkie type, unfortunately, so that's the best I can do.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Jasovon said:

Just do whatever the patriots do. They make scrubs off the street into all pros. 

 

Guess we better draft a Tom Brady in the 6th round, I guess.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

I was just teasing you. My guess is that you are trying to bold part of a quote and somehow that is bleeding into your response. I'm about 180 degrees from a tekkie type, unfortunately, so that's the best I can do.

I appreciate your response. I know your response was done in a good spirit. You may be right that when I bold a word or section that it bleeds into the whole post. My reputation here has been frequently sullied for a variety of legitimate reasons. But I don't want to be accused of being a screamer because of technical problems. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, JohnC said:

I appreciate your response. I know your response was done in a good spirit. You may be right that when I bold a word or section that it bleeds into the whole post. My reputation here has been frequently sullied for a variety of legitimate reasons. But I don't want to be accused of being a screamer because of technical problems. 

You're one of the better posters, imo. Really, don't worry about it.

[machine gun kelly]

9 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Over the last several years in the NFL there has been an obvious and marked decline in the quality of O-line play, and there are a lot of reasons for that, and it gives those teams able to cobble together a great O-line a tremendous advantage over the rest who can't.  An example of the dearth of good offensive lineman out there is that in the new AFF league the defense is only allowed to rush five people because the quality of the o-line play is so poor the offenses couldn't function otherwise.  I think having a solid O-line is as important in today's NFL as having a true franchise quarterback.  For the Bills, building a solid O-line is more important than getting wide receivers, a tight end, or a running back.  All those other positions, and the health and development of our (hopefully) franchise QB, depend on the big guys up front being able to do their job. 

 

The bottom lined is that you simply can not have a successful offense without a solid line.  Any other position group can be weak and you can still win in this league  You can even put an average QB behind a great O-line and have success.  I know Metcalf, Hockenson, Fant, and other skill position players are tantalizing in this years draft, they're flashy and exciting, but they will not have success without an O-line that can run block and pass protect. You can argue that Hockenson can block, and I'd give you that, but we need o-lineman and if Hockenson is being depended on to block he's not in the flat catching passes which limits his effectiveness.  Our defense played well last year and even if we stand pat on the defensive side of the ball we should still have a defense that can play with anyone this season.

 

They need to grab at least one and hopefully two blue chip O-lineman in free agency even if they have to pay a premium for them, and I would also love to see the Bills grab either Jonah Williams or Jawaan Taylor with their first pick.  O-linemen are not sexy but they win games.  Last year McBeane focused all of his energy on putting this franchise in a position to be able to draft our franchise quarterback.  This year he needs to apply that same focus on fixing our O-line, it is this team's biggest weakness.  Let's use this year's free agency and draft to turn it into one of our biggest strengths.  It will pay dividends.  Get it done McBeane!

 

Below are some links to stories about the decline in NFL O-line play, the first from last season, the second from the season before.  They are not long and worth the read.  The second goes into the problem in a little more depth.

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/2/26/17052800/seattle-seahawks-offensive-line-degraded-nfl-since-2006-visual-pff-pbe-pass-blocking-efficiency

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason

 

 

 

“My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die”.  “Stop saying that”!

 

Love that movie and so do my kids.  I’ve been saying you’re points all along.  Pay a premium for Saffold and Paradis, and Long played well last year as a Guard.  His busted up hand forced him out of the Center position.  I also mentioned about two WR as well in FA, and couldn’t agree more take the best Tackle with the 9 th pick.  We already have 10 picks so we don’t need to trade down.  We can probably use Dion Dawkins at RT as he looked a lot better left of Richie and Wood. I still draft another Tackle later for depth, but first get a solid TE as there are several rated high in the draft.

 

Beyond that just pick BPA instead for need even if it is one of our positions of strength.

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

“My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die”.  “Stop saying that”!

 

Love that movie and so do my kids.  I’ve been saying you’re points all along.  Pay a premium for Saffold and Paradis, and Long played well last year as a Guard.  His busted up hand forced him out of the Center position.  I also mentioned about two WR as well in FA, and couldn’t agree more take the best Tackle with the 9 th pick.  We already have 10 picks so we don’t need to trade down.  We can probably use Dion Dawkins at RT as he looked a lot better left of Richie and Wood. I still draft another Tackle later for depth, but first get a solid TE as there are several rated high in the draft.

 

Beyond that just pick BPA instead for need even if it is one of our positions of strength.

Dawkins was terrible at RT as a rookie in limited snaps. Seems like he is a left side fella. He might be even better at LG. I would love to get some of the best veteran oline help available in free agency. Paradis or Morse at center. I'm a bit worried about D. Williams because he's had multiple injuries already in a short career. Jawuan James might be a safer get at RT. 

[Ronin]

10 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

They need to grab at least one and hopefully two blue chip O-lineman in free agency even if they have to pay a premium for them,

 

They need a lot.  They don't have a blue-chip player anywhere on the offensive roster.  Relying on Shady at 31 is a fool's gamble, it was debatable at best going into this season.  They have needs at 9 of 11 spots, and that's with Allen cemented in there, not because he's arrived as a franchise QB yet, but simply because it's his job to lose, and with Foster as a strting WR, which remains to be seen whether he can continue to perform at that level as such.  Either way, there isn't an above-average player at any of the other 9 spots, and again, right now Allen's not above average either.  They do need, absolutely, to improve the offense around him however or he won't even stand a chance whether that's a slim or good chance notwithstanding.  But that's a tall order.  

 

All of a sudden it's easy to see how that "extra cap space" isn't going to go nearly as far as so many think it will.  

 

As well, McBeane haven't demonstrated, or anything even close, that they even know how to rebuild an offense.  D is McD's forte and who knows re: Beane.  But given their attempts on offense to date it's not encouraging.  

 

One pick each in rounds 1-3 even with a couple of blue-chip OL ain't gonna cut it, even if two of the draftees work out as such as rookies.  At this point they're going to have to hope and rely upon, at least partially, their moves from their past two offseasons.  

 

The clock continues to tick on McBeane.  If they don't make the playoffs this year I suspect that failing to do so next season, 2020, will usher them out of Buffalo.  They may already be at risk if Allen doesn't make enormous strides in the short-medium passing game or if they once again fail to win more than 6 or 7 games.  They'll certainly begin to take heat at that point.  If Allen struggles and makes no improvement whatsoever this forthcoming season may be their last.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by TaskersGhost

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Two big factors:

 

1. The prevalence of the college spread leading to lineman less well developed in conventional pro blocking techniques;

 

2. The CBA. Really hard to get OL cohesion running round a gym in shorts during OTAs. The old school dog days of camp were about getting your lines ready to play. 

 

 

 

I was just about to post how it's my opinion that the CBA is the biggest culprit.

 

Players didn't want to practice as much.  They got their wish.  Now O lines across the league are taking significantly longer to gel and play as a cohesive unit.

[CaptnCoke11]

Dream world would be signing Trent Brown LT, move Dawkins to LG, Sign Morse C and Williams/James RT and let Long and Teller battle for RG.  We could do it financially but like i said it’s probably a dream.  

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Dream world would be signing Trent Brown LT, move Dawkins to LG, Sign Morse C and Williams/James RT and let Long and Teller battle for RG.  We could do it financially but like i said it’s probably a dream.  

I do worry some that New England oline is subject to being overrated because Brady is quick to get rid of the ball and the Bob Kraft referee advantage that isn't portable to other teams.

[BillsSB2020]

4 hours ago, HOUSE said:

The O line improved as the season came to a close. There were times when Josh Allen had more then enough time to throw. There needs to be a few updates, some are simply not starting material. Solid backup but poor starters.

I think they were "adequate" in pass pro but abysmal in the run game. Not only is that directly a problem for the run game, it also puts the QB in tough spots. 3rd & 6 far too often vs. 3rd and 2 for example. This is why I'm not really interested in drafting a "technician" in the first round. What they need is road graders. They played a very "defensive" style of offensive line. Need to attack and blow people off the LOS. I like this Taylor fella from Florida.

Edited February 17, 2019 by BillsSB2020

[wiskibreth]

6 hours ago, Jasovon said:

Just do whatever the patriots do. They make scrubs off the street into all pros. 

His name is Dante Scarnecchia.  He is hands down the leagues best O-line coach.  He is the Bill Belichick of OL coaches.

39 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I do worry some that New England oline is subject to being overrated because Brady is quick to get rid of the ball and the Bob Kraft referee advantage that isn't portable to other teams.

Then how do you explain the emergence of their dominant running attack?

[DCbillsfan]

The Bills oline is terrible.  Needs major talent infusion.  

[CaptnCoke11]

50 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I do worry some that New England oline is subject to being overrated because Brady is quick to get rid of the ball and the Bob Kraft referee advantage that isn't portable to other teams.

He was exceptionally good this year.  

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

They need a lot.  They don't have a blue-chip player anywhere on the offensive roster.  Relying on Shady at 31 is a fool's gamble, it was debatable at best going into this season.  They have needs at 9 of 11 spots, and that's with Allen cemented in there, not because he's arrived as a franchise QB yet, but simply because it's his job to lose, and with Foster as a strting WR, which remains to be seen whether he can continue to perform at that level as such.  Either way, there isn't an above-average player at any of the other 9 spots, and again, right now Allen's not above average either.  They do need, absolutely, to improve the offense around him however or he won't even stand a chance whether that's a slim or good chance notwithstanding.  But that's a tall order.  

 

All of a sudden it's easy to see how that "extra cap space" isn't going to go nearly as far as so many think it will.  

 

As well, McBeane haven't demonstrated, or anything even close, that they even know how to rebuild an offense.  D is McD's forte and who knows re: Beane.  But given their attempts on offense to date it's not encouraging.  

 

One pick each in rounds 1-3 even with a couple of blue-chip OL ain't gonna cut it, even if two of the draftees work out as such as rookies.  At this point they're going to have to hope and rely upon, at least partially, their moves from their past two offseasons.  

 

The clock continues to tick on McBeane.  If they don't make the playoffs this year I suspect that failing to do so next season, 2020, will usher them out of Buffalo.  They may already be at risk if Allen doesn't make enormous strides in the short-medium passing game or if they once again fail to win more than 6 or 7 games.  They'll certainly begin to take heat at that point.  If Allen struggles and makes no improvement whatsoever this forthcoming season may be their last.  

 

 

 

 

 

9 is a bit much.  Allen, Foster, Jones, and McKenzie belong on this 11.  I’m with you we need an O Line, TE, and two WR’s.  That makes 7 by my Oswego math ( sorry for my colleagues who also went to Oswego).   Tasker, you make very good points, and I’m on record stating we need two marque O Lineman, and two WR in free agency, and 10 picks to fill a lot of holes.

 

Dan on Press Pass mentioned yesterday (NFLR), Long played well as a starting G, but b/c his hand was busted up he had to be moved from C.  So if true we then need 3-4 offense starters from the draft.  So many if’s it’s just speculation.

[WideNine]

8 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

I think it’s complete BS! A ‘Dearth’? pfffft. These guys are incredible athletes, on a global scale. They are the recipients of the finest strength and conditioning programs and scientific dietary regiments known to man. They are freakishly huge, both in weight and height, and as skilled and light on their feet as a professional dancer. They are mostly way above average intelligence and personally committed to the essence of the game; blocking & tackling. 

The issue lies in their counterparts on the other side of the LOS being equally incredible physical specimens wherein the typically superior athletes reside. Thus, 99.9% of every rule change the game has seen since the days of no facemasks and leather helmets has been to their benefit. For all the witless bitching about Vlad, Groy, Bodine, etc., they have all passed the highest bar by having made an NFL roster and starting many games BEFORE becoming Bills. If we part ways with them, they’ll all very likely be signed to another NFL team and continue to start. That’s reality.

There are only 2 aspects that create a ‘great’ OL. Cohesiveness and scheme. Every year, we see ‘great’ OL in FA that never again reach the level of recognition they had from their former team. With rare exception, it’s due to new, unfamiliar  teammates and schemes not suited to their strengths.

One case in point; Jim Ritcher. He was a 1st Round pick for us in ‘80, I believe. While starting every game for more that a decade sandwiched between many other players, he wallowed in relative obscurity on bad teams. Will Grant and Ken Jones were also good, long time starters during this dreadful era until Levy and Marchibroda arrived. Grant & Jones were replaced with Hull & Wolford along with 5 HOF ‘specialists’. Only at the very end of his career did Ritcher receive national recognition for a stalwart career and 1 PB invite.

 

I digress. Scheme > talent.

 

 

 

Agree that scheme to talent is a very important factor, probably more so now than ever, but I think using examples of players prior to Free Agency, and several generations before the current CBA agreements and before the spread offenses in college became vogue, does not address the challenges the articles lay out that coaches have today getting college prospects NFL-ready.

 

Having players from the NCAA ranks that cannot operate out of a 3-point stance, who no longer learn NFL level blocking techniques, means a longer time needed to coach those skills up, but the CBA allows less, Free Agency takes the units that learn how to work together in the same scheme with the same language and breaks them up.

 

Successful teams need to have schemes and teaching techniques to get players up to speed faster, and IMO teams need to stress keeping these units together longer, and front offices and coaching staffs need to stress more effective o-line player transition planning & replacement strategy.

 

Interesting read, and adds some caution to expectations of o-line players taken high in the draft, or thinking free agents will provide instant success as there are plenty of examples where they did not. There is more to filling the gaps than grab another prospect to plug in.