Jump to content

Poor O-Line play is league-wide problem not just Bills


Inigo Montoya

Recommended Posts

Over the last several years in the NFL there has been an obvious and marked decline in the quality of O-line play, and there are a lot of reasons for that, and it gives those teams able to cobble together a great O-line a tremendous advantage over the rest who can't.  An example of the dearth of good offensive lineman out there is that in the new AFF league the defense is only allowed to rush five people because the quality of the o-line play is so poor the offenses couldn't function otherwise.  I think having a solid O-line is as important in today's NFL as having a true franchise quarterback.  For the Bills, building a solid O-line is more important than getting wide receivers, a tight end, or a running back.  All those other positions, and the health and development of our (hopefully) franchise QB, depend on the big guys up front being able to do their job. 

 

The bottom lined is that you simply can not have a successful offense without a solid line.  Any other position group can be weak and you can still win in this league  You can even put an average QB behind a great O-line and have success.  I know Metcalf, Hockenson, Fant, and other skill position players are tantalizing in this years draft, they're flashy and exciting, but they will not have success without an O-line that can run block and pass protect. You can argue that Hockenson can block, and I'd give you that, but we need o-lineman and if Hockenson is being depended on to block he's not in the flat catching passes which limits his effectiveness.  Our defense played well last year and even if we stand pat on the defensive side of the ball we should still have a defense that can play with anyone this season.

 

They need to grab at least one and hopefully two blue chip O-lineman in free agency even if they have to pay a premium for them, and I would also love to see the Bills grab either Jonah Williams or Jawaan Taylor with their first pick.  O-linemen are not sexy but they win games.  Last year McBeane focused all of his energy on putting this franchise in a position to be able to draft our franchise quarterback.  This year he needs to apply that same focus on fixing our O-line, it is this team's biggest weakness.  Let's use this year's free agency and draft to turn it into one of our biggest strengths.  It will pay dividends.  Get it done McBeane!

 

Below are some links to stories about the decline in NFL O-line play, the first from last season, the second from the season before.  They are not long and worth the read.  The second goes into the problem in a little more depth.

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/2/26/17052800/seattle-seahawks-offensive-line-degraded-nfl-since-2006-visual-pff-pbe-pass-blocking-efficiency

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason

 

 

 

Edited by Inigo Montoya
  • Thank you (+1) 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it’s complete BS! A ‘Dearth’? pfffft. These guys are incredible athletes, on a global scale. They are the recipients of the finest strength and conditioning programs and scientific dietary regiments known to man. They are freakishly huge, both in weight and height, and as skilled and light on their feet as a professional dancer. They are mostly way above average intelligence and personally committed to the essence of the game; blocking & tackling. 

The issue lies in their counterparts on the other side of the LOS being equally incredible physical specimens wherein the typically superior athletes reside. Thus, 99.9% of every rule change the game has seen since the days of no facemasks and leather helmets has been to their benefit. For all the witless bitching about Vlad, Groy, Bodine, etc., they have all passed the highest bar by having made an NFL roster and starting many games BEFORE becoming Bills. If we part ways with them, they’ll all very likely be signed to another NFL team and continue to start. That’s reality.

There are only 2 aspects that create a ‘great’ OL. Cohesiveness and scheme. Every year, we see ‘great’ OL in FA that never again reach the level of recognition they had from their former team. With rare exception, it’s due to new, unfamiliar  teammates and schemes not suited to their strengths.

One case in point; Jim Ritcher. He was a 1st Round pick for us in ‘80, I believe. While starting every game for more that a decade sandwiched between many other players, he wallowed in relative obscurity on bad teams. Will Grant and Ken Jones were also good, long time starters during this dreadful era until Levy and Marchibroda arrived. Grant & Jones were replaced with Hull & Wolford along with 5 HOF ‘specialists’. Only at the very end of his career did Ritcher receive national recognition for a stalwart career and 1 PB invite.

 

I digress. Scheme > talent.

 

 

  • Like (+1) 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scheme to the OL men strength showed the difference between Kromer and Castillio.

 

OL men coming out of college in a spread offense are difficult to judge and convert to a NFL style with limited practice time.

 

That is why I hope the AAF can train some OL men to be effective in the NFL.

  • Like (+1) 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bills offensive line lacked cohesion, scheme, and talent.  You need all three to run an efficient offense.  Finding the right talent for the scheme they employ will be the hardest.  Cohesion will take a lot of time together.  If all the pieces fall into place I believe the line will really start to come together from 2020 on.  I also believe, if all the pieces come together, that the line and offense can still be much improved in 2019.  Add a TE, WR, and RB and the Bills just might have an NFL competitive offense that doesn't depend on the QB to be your leading rusher.

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

I think it’s complete BS! A ‘Dearth’? pfffft. These guys are incredible athletes, on a global scale. They are the recipients of the finest strength and conditioning programs and scientific dietary regiments known to man. They are freakishly huge, both in weight and height, and as skilled and light on their feet as a professional dancer. They are mostly way above average intelligence and personally committed to the essence of the game; blocking & tackling. 

The issue lies in their counterparts on the other side of the LOS being equally incredible physical specimens wherein the typically superior athletes reside. Thus, 99.9% of every rule change the game has seen since the days of no facemasks and leather helmets has been to their benefit. For all the witless bitching about Vlad, Groy, Bodine, etc., they have all passed the highest bar by having made an NFL roster and starting many games BEFORE becoming Bills. If we part ways with them, they’ll all very likely be signed to another NFL team and continue to start. That’s reality.

There are only 2 aspects that create a ‘great’ OL. Cohesiveness and scheme. Every year, we see ‘great’ OL in FA that never again reach the level of recognition they had from their former team. With rare exception, it’s due to new, unfamiliar  teammates and schemes not suited to their strengths.

One case in point; Jim Ritcher. He was a 1st Round pick for us in ‘80, I believe. While starting every game for more that a decade sandwiched between many other players, he wallowed in relative obscurity on bad teams. Will Grant and Ken Jones were also good, long time starters during this dreadful era until Levy and Marchibroda arrived. Grant & Jones were replaced with Hull & Wolford along with 5 HOF ‘specialists’. Only at the very end of his career did Ritcher receive national recognition for a stalwart career and 1 PB invite.

 

I digress. Scheme > talent.

 

 

 

Complete BS?

 

You go off on a tangent extoling the virtue of offensive lineman like I just threw all O-linemen under the bus when the whole point of my post was how I believe O-linemen are vital for a team to be successful.  

 

According to you, I guess the Bills are good at the O-line position now.  Juan Castillo was the only problem with our O-line last year. It was all just the scheme. Now that he’s gone and we have a new O-line coach we should just stand pat with our current O-line and let our new O-line coach with a better scheme turn Miller, Ducasse, Bodine, and Groy into All Pros.

 

 

 

Edited by Inigo Montoya
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Over the last several years in the NFL there has been an obvious and marked decline in the quality of O-line play, and there are a lot of reasons for that, and it gives those teams able to cobble together a great O-line a tremendous advantage over the rest who can't.  An example of the dearth of good offensive lineman out there is that in the new AFF league the defense is only allowed to rush five people because the quality of the o-line play is so poor the offenses couldn't function otherwise.  I think having a solid O-line is as important in today's NFL as having a true franchise quarterback.  For the Bills, building a solid O-line is more important than getting wide receivers, a tight end, or a running back.  All those other positions, and the health and development of our (hopefully) franchise QB, depend on the big guys up front being able to do their job. 

 

The bottom lined is that you simply can not have a successful offense without a solid line.  Any other position group can be weak and you can still win in this league  You can even put an average QB behind a great O-line and have success.  I know Metcalf, Hockenson, Fant, and other skill position players are tantalizing in this years draft, they're flashy and exciting, but they will not have success without an O-line that can run block and pass protect. You can argue that Hockenson can block, and I'd give you that, but we need o-lineman and if Hockenson is being depended on to block he's not in the flat catching passes which limits his effectiveness.  Our defense played well last year and even if we stand pat on the defensive side of the ball we should still have a defense that can play with anyone this season.

 

They need to grab at least one and hopefully two blue chip O-lineman in free agency even if they have to pay a premium for them, and I would also love to see the Bills grab either Jonah Williams or Jawaan Taylor with their first pick.  O-linemen are not sexy but they win games.  Last year McBeane focused all of his energy on putting this franchise in a position to be able to draft our franchise quarterback.  This year he needs to apply that same focus on fixing our O-line, it is this team's biggest weakness.  Let's use this year's free agency and draft to turn it into one of our biggest strengths.  It will pay dividends.  Get it done McBeane!

 

Below are some links to stories about the decline in NFL O-line play, the first from last season, the second from the season before.  They are not long and worth the read.  The second goes into the problem in a little more depth.

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/2/26/17052800/seattle-seahawks-offensive-line-degraded-nfl-since-2006-visual-pff-pbe-pass-blocking-efficiency

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason

 

 

 

This whole thing needs to be hushed up before the NFL says rushing the passer is dangerous for player safety and eliminates it.

5 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Complete BS?

 

You go off on a tangent extoling the virtue of offensive lineman like I just threw all O-linemen under the bus when the whole point of my post was how I believe O-linemen are vital for a team to be successful.  

 

According to you, I guess the Bills are good at the O-line position now.  Juan Castillo was the only problem with our O-line last year. It was all just the scheme. Now that he’s gone and we have a new O-line coach we should just stand pat with our current O-line and let our new O-line coach with a better scheme turn Miller, Ducasse, and Groy into All Pros.

 

 

 

 

 

No we are good because we just signed Long?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed, thus two realities we need to face: (1) Getting answers through Free Agency is a low probability-- you are competing with almost everyone and that seller's market makes team overspend. (2) The best approach is to build it through the draft. The Bills have several picks this year, and o-line needs to be the focus with their top 5. I would be happy to see three o-lineman picked with their 1st--3rd round picks.

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems to me I've seen or read many articles indicating O line play has declined because guys come into the league with limited blocking skills given the advocacy of spread offenses in college.  The Colts chose very well last draft and got two guys ready to play; the exception to prove the rule.

 

I am quite sure Beane and McD understand the importance of an effective O line for their young QB.  It will be interesting to see how they address it, but I have no doubt it will be addressed.

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s no surprise. No NFL position group’s success relies more on working as a cohesive unit than the OL. The current CBA ppreduced the number of training camp practices and number of practices with contact. Long term stability if scheme and OL players is even more important now than it was. The sooner the Bills set their OL the better off they’ll be. 

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Seems to me I've seen or read many articles indicating O line play has declined because guys come into the league with limited blocking skills given the advocacy of spread offenses in college.  The Colts chose very well last draft and got two guys ready to play; the exception to prove the rule.

 

I am quite sure Beane and McD understand the importance of an effective O line for their young QB.  It will be interesting to see how they address it, but I have no doubt it will be addressed.

 

This is also true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two big factors:

 

1. The prevalence of the college spread leading to lineman less well developed in conventional pro blocking techniques;

 

2. The CBA. Really hard to get OL cohesion running round a gym in shorts during OTAs. The old school dog days of camp were about getting your lines ready to play. 

 

 

  • Like (+1) 3
  • Thank you (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Two big factors:

 

1. The prevalence of the college spread leading to lineman less well developed in conventional pro blocking techniques;

 

2. The CBA. Really hard to get OL cohesion running round a gym in shorts during OTAs. The old school dog days of camp were about getting your lines ready to play. 

 

 

Exactly right re: college, but that’s really a problem that can’t be solved. College teams will continue to rely wholly on the spread because the coaches need to win. The spread works amazingly well against college DBs because most of them are bad (even good teams will have only 2 good ones max), which in turn means someone is always open.

 

i will add that the Patriots under Scarnacchia always pull it together because he is such a great coach. He’s a true HOF coach, in my opinion, but he won’t get in. The year he wasn’t there (2015), their line play collapsed. Once he came back, they were great again. Coaching really matters, and there aren’t all that many good ones. The Bills have had a ton of bad line coaches ofpver the years. Kromer was good, and he’s thriving in LA now.

Edited by dave mcbride
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Exactly right re: college, but that’s really a problem that can’t be solved. College teams will continue to rely wholly on the spread because the coaches need to win. The spread works amazingly well against college DBs because most of them are bad (even good teams will have only 2 good ones max), which in turn means someone is always open.

 

i will add that the Patriots under Scarnacchia always pull it together because he is such a great coach. He’s a true HOF coach, in my opinion, but he won’t get in. The year he wasn’t there (2015), their line play collapsed. Once he came back, they were great again. Coaching really matters, and there aren’t all that many good ones. The Bills have had a ton of bad line coaches ofpver the years. Kromer was good, and he’s thriving in LA now.

 

Indeed. Which is why the contact time in the NFL where coaches can get hands on is even more important. 

 

On the Patriots I'd add two other things - firstly their line often starts the season slow. They have on more than one occasion had 3 or 4 different starting combinations through 6 games and they are not afraid to move guys about and try them in different spots in that period. They always improve as the season goes and come on down the stretch and as you say a lot of that is coaching.

 

Secondly they have adjusted schematically. From about 2008 Belichick saw the way it was going and they run as many spread concepts as anyone in the league with empty formations and tight ends and backs lining up wide. Their offense is predicated on fast developing plays to get the ball out of Brady's hand inside 2.5 seconds and that assists the line too. It is also a reason they get called for so few holds. If I am the Patriots left tackle I don't need to grab because if I disrupt the rusher and redirect him then I am confident the ball will be gone before he gets to Tom. It is why I wouldn't touch Trent Brown in FA and why Nate Solder hasn't quite lived up to his price tag in New York (though in fairness I think he played better than some of the coverage would suggest). 

Edited by GunnerBill
  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may be true that OL play has declined over the years.  But - as a Bills fan - I don't care about that.  What I mean is I don't care about the absolute quality of our OL.  I care about the comparative quality of our OL.  We need it to be better at opening holes and protecting QBs than most other NFL lines if we want to be a playoff team.  We weren't.  

 

Saying it's "not just the Bills" isn't really true when you think about it in these terms.  The Bills OL was bad by current NFL standards.  Only a few other teams were as bad or worse.  

 

But the decline of OL play is an interesting phenomena when most performances in sports get better over time as training, medical support, nutrition, gear, etc get better.  

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...