row_33 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...what about Hines Ward?........... WR and TE is dissed by the Hall, only immortals and men with very long great careers have a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 31 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...what about Hines Ward?........... I was having this chat with @GoBills808 yesterday and the weirdest name that came up on the all-time list for me was Muhsin Muhammad. 31st overall in all-time receiving yards and the owner of the 13th best Age 35 season in NFL history. Stats, longevity would both get close to fitting the bill. If a guy like that doesn't get in, Welker and Edelman can bugger off. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Barry Sanders, the best rb I ever say play, never had that good of a stretch. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SandBa00.htm personally, I think the HOF is for guys that dominate like TD instead of guys like JE (product of a great situation where many other players would excel) or a guy who plays forever and pass stats. JMO though. Sanders had a 4 year stretch starting with 1994 in which he rushed for 6989 yards. TD's 4 year stretch was 6413. Terrell Davis, on his best day, was never even close to what Barry Sanders was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Catches is such an overblown stat. JE gets a lot of catches becaus teams pass a ton more. Catches is so misleading when you compare guys from this generation to previous ones. The HOF should be reversed for greatness. Cole Beasley on the Pats isn’t greatness. https://www.nbcsports.com/video/who-better-julian-edelman-or-wes-welker?ls=pftvod 1 hour ago, Blokestradamus said: I was having this chat with @GoBills808 yesterday and the weirdest name that came up on the all-time list for me was Muhsin Muhammad. 31st overall in all-time receiving yards and the owner of the 13th best Age 35 season in NFL history. Stats, longevity would both get close to fitting the bill. If a guy like that doesn't get in, Welker and Edelman can bugger off. Harold Baines also had 2,866 hits too. Huge numbers deriving from longevity can be deceiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Harold Baines also had 2,866 hits too. Huge numbers deriving from longevity can be deceiving. I wouldn't make the argument that Muhsin deserves to be in the HOF. He was a very reliable statistical performer for a long period of time but only really had one dominant statistical season. It will be interesting to see how the selection committee looks at early retirement players like Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis as they were relatively short-term NFLers in comparison to a lot of guys in Canton but were statistically dominant in the years they did play. Do you ping guys like Megatron for walking away from the game early? Do you reward a guy like Muhsin for being (relative to his Age 35 peers) relevant into his mid-30's? Edited February 7, 2019 by Blokestradamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 18 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Barry Sanders, the best rb I ever say play, never had that good of a stretch. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SandBa00.htm personally, I think the HOF is for guys that dominate like TD instead of guys like JE (product of a great situation where many other players would excel) or a guy who plays forever and pass stats. JMO though. ?? — I support Davis’ HOF status, but Sanders’ run from 1994-97 was a little more prolific than Davis. Sanders had 8,122 yards from scrimmage and 45 TDs. Davis had 7,594 yards from scrimmage and 61 TDs. As you know, td production is often a unction of the overall offense you’re in. Both had combined AVs over those four seasons of 69. 2 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said: I wouldn't make the argument that Muhsin deserves to be in the HOF. He was a very reliable statistical performer for a long period of time but only really had one dominant statistical season. It will be interesting to see how the selection committee looks at early retirement players like Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis as they were relatively short-term NFLers in comparison to a lot of guys in Canton but were statistically dominant in the years they did play. Do you ping guys like Megatron for walking away from the game early? Do you reward a guy like Muhsin for being (relative to his Age 35 peers) relevant into his mid-30's? Football ain’t like any other sport because of the extreme injury situation. 5-year stretches of greatness/dominance should be rewarded. Sandy Koufax is the model here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...what about Hines Ward?........... He wasn't a Patriot but definitely should be in before Edelman too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said: I wouldn't make the argument that Muhsin deserves to be in the HOF. He was a very reliable statistical performer for a long period of time but only really had one dominant statistical season. It will be interesting to see how the selection committee looks at early retirement players like Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis as they were relatively short-term NFLers in comparison to a lot of guys in Canton but were statistically dominant in the years they did play. Do you ping guys like Megatron for walking away from the game early? Do you reward a guy like Muhsin for being (relative to his Age 35 peers) relevant into his mid-30's? It has to be a mix. Longevity helps but if you are never one of the best that also has to hurt. The best way I have heard it phrased came from a baseball writer and HOF voter. Tony Mazz. I don’t have the quote but his line of thought was voters are already given all the best players and they all can’t make it in. He votes for the ones that he would have to include if he was writing a book chronicling the history of the game. I understand that’s still objective because of the level of detail each person would include but it’s a fair point and a solid starting ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 21 hours ago, Mark92 said: When Tom Brady has needed a 1st down he goes to Edelman. Scumbags make the hall as well. Character doesn't get you in unfortunately. Jerry Rice has huge numbers in the postseason because he was a 49er. You can't blame a player for playing on good teams. Eric Moulds would have been amazing in the postseason if the team could get him there! What are you talking about? We did get him there and he WAS amazing...he still has the all-time NFL record for most receiving yards in a playoff game with 240 yards on 9 catches against the Dolphins in 1998...and the Bills still lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 57 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said: I wouldn't make the argument that Muhsin deserves to be in the HOF. He was a very reliable statistical performer for a long period of time but only really had one dominant statistical season. It will be interesting to see how the selection committee looks at early retirement players like Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis as they were relatively short-term NFLers in comparison to a lot of guys in Canton but were statistically dominant in the years they did play. Do you ping guys like Megatron for walking away from the game early? Do you reward a guy like Muhsin for being (relative to his Age 35 peers) relevant into his mid-30's? i personally think longevity should absolutely be factored in. to have an outstanding career over a decade in the nfl is an amazing accomplishment. who knows how quickly others would have burned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, matter2003 said: He wasn't a Patriot but definitely should be in before Edelman too ...apologize for the confusion and didn't mean to imply he was a Pat......agree with your opinion........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...apologize for the confusion and didn't mean to imply he was a Pat......agree with your opinion........ i don't see many Brady Patriots getting in for an 18 year dynasty such is the way the game is played now, but as long as your stats look impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, CommonCents said: It has to be a mix. Longevity helps but if you are never one of the best that also has to hurt. The best way I have heard it phrased came from a baseball writer and HOF voter. Tony Mazz. I don’t have the quote but his line of thought was voters are already given all the best players and they all can’t make it in. He votes for the ones that he would have to include if he was writing a book chronicling the history of the game. I understand that’s still objective because of the level of detail each person would include but it’s a fair point and a solid starting ground. I think that's a fair way to approach what is inherently a biased process. It's especially tough to articulate when you consider that most of the bias involved is probably unconscious, rather than conscious. I would absolutely put Patrick Willis in ahead of most of his peers despite only playing 8 seasons but you have to be careful with that. It has to be used sparingly to reflect the sheer brilliance of that particular short(ish) career. If you use it as some kind of test case to throw less dominant 8-year players in, it devalues the selection in itself. I doubt that I'll ever fully agree with every HOF induction class. I guess all I can do is argue passionately for the guys that I respect and for people that I deem as true trailblazers in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 the fans and media don't think the same as those who actually played the game, especially the immortals of the game on the committee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 for example, a recent good podcast discussed the difference in the respect Carmelo Anthony had among the players (who always admired him deeply) and the fans/media who thought him a shiftless bum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, CommonCents said: It has to be a mix. Longevity helps but if you are never one of the best that also has to hurt. The best way I have heard it phrased came from a baseball writer and HOF voter. Tony Mazz. I don’t have the quote but his line of thought was voters are already given all the best players and they all can’t make it in. He votes for the ones that he would have to include if he was writing a book chronicling the history of the game. I understand that’s still objective because of the level of detail each person would include but it’s a fair point and a solid starting ground. One of the things baseball HOF fame voters are supposed to focus on are five-year peaks as well as long-term counting stats. I think that the importance of five-year peaks is doubly important in football because if the injury issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark92 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, matter2003 said: What are you talking about? We did get him there and he WAS amazing...he still has the all-time NFL record for most receiving yards in a playoff game with 240 yards on 9 catches against the Dolphins in 1998...and the Bills still lost. We didn't get him there enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, dave mcbride said: One of the things baseball HOF fame voters are supposed to focus on are five-year peaks as well as long-term counting stats. I think that the importance of five-year peaks is doubly important in football because if the injury issues. I agree. I look at first team AP and value that well beyond years played and total stats accumulated. It’s a mix but those hold those the most weight for me. Blokes mentioned Willis and I mention Thomas, both guys were 5 time first teamers. If I had my say they would both be in. They were the best at their position no less than 5 years. IMO it’s better to have guys snubbed than it is to start putting the Harold Baines type of guys in any HOF. That hurts the brain and it makes the discussions less valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, row_33 said: the fans and media don't think the same as those who actually played the game, especially the immortals of the game on the committee The selection committee is composed primarily of media members though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Blokestradamus said: I was having this chat with @GoBills808 yesterday and the weirdest name that came up on the all-time list for me was Muhsin Muhammad. 31st overall in all-time receiving yards and the owner of the 13th best Age 35 season in NFL history. Stats, longevity would both get close to fitting the bill. If a guy like that doesn't get in, Welker and Edelman can bugger off. Donald Driver, Keenan McCardell, Jimmy Smith, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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