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Eagles officially choose Wentz over Foles


Alphadawg7

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21 hours ago, prissythecat said:

 

If you throw out his rookie season.  Wentz has an average QB rating over 100 for the past two seasons.   Those are elite stats.

 

Foles had one excellent season in 2013.   Rest of the time he has been pretty pedestrian.   In these past playoffs , despite some folks thinking that Foles had a magical run,   his QB rating was 77 and 61 respectively.   He didn't play  well at all with the exception of that 1st quarter at NO.     So not sure how Foles is the better player and the better long term choice?

If you throw our Foles' statistically exceptional 2013 season, it's only fair to also throw out his 2015 season in St. Louis under Jeff Fisher, whose teams were infamously offensively wastelands for his last few years.  They were just embarrassingly and unimaginably bad, no matter what the personnel (Todd Gurley averaged 3.2 YPC in 2016, pre-McVay).

 

You alluded to Foles' performance in the Playoffs this year.  I absolutely agree that he played a poor game in New Orleans- after a great 1st-quarter.  But the reason his QB Rating was only 61 was because that second interception, a drop throw Jeffery's hands, dropped it 20 points.  But no, I won't simply look at that game through the prism of the box score- he didn't play well.

 

However, he week before against the Bears in Chicago, the league-leading defense in turnovers this year, probably the league's best defense, and a defense with an all-time top-5 DVOA score, 25-40 for 266  yards and 2 TD's & 2 INT's, considering how other QB's performed there this year (Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins, Matthew Stafford, etc.) against that defense... that wasn't a "bad" performance.  And he came up big in critical moments, including throwing the game-winning TD pass on 4th-down.

 

You also can't dismiss or discount how brilliantly Foles played in last year's Playoffs, at least against the Vikings in the NFC Championship Game (Minnesota's defense was arguably the league's best in 2017) & the Patriots in the Super Bowl.  His great play is encapsulated in the stats (26-33, 352 yards, 3 TD's/0 INT's & 28-43, 373, 3 TD's/1 INT, respectively) but also consider that New England only punted once all game and could scarcely be stopped- the Patriots' first 3 possessions in the second half all resulted in TD's.  So Foles had to match Brady drive for drive, play for play.  And he managed to.

 

All that said... Wentz IS the better player and should be the Eagles' starting QB in 2019 and beyond.   But Foles has still shown enough that he deserves a chance to start and IMO can be a solid, middle-tier starter, in the area of Cousins/Stafford/Dalton (anywhere from 12th-18th-best overall).  

 

His stats through his 5 regular season starts this year suggest he could be an effective starter (72.3% completion percentage, 7.1 YPA, 1,413 yards, 7 TD's/4 INT's, & 96.0 QB Rating).  But his Playoff/late-season pedigree the last two seasons implies he could lead a team on a Playoff run since he does seem to perform well in monumental moments.  Setting last year's Super Bowl run & MVP aside, the Eagles were left for dead this year at 6-7 and then Foles helps to beat the Rams on the road in week 15, throws for 471 yards & 4 TD's at home over the AFC South-winning Texans in week 16, and then gets them in the postseason the following week and makes some big throws against the vaunted Bears in the WC Round.

 

Foles isn't great but let's not pretend he's awful.  Or that there are easily more 15 QB's in the NFL better than him.

 

 

Edited by Midwest1981
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17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What about when Foles is asked to play in a conventional drop back offense without the RPO? To then he looks confused, holds the ball too long and his accuracy gets spotty. I think he has played pretty average in the two playoff games this year, though he had a couple of really good games at the end of the regular season. To me if you commit to Foles you have to commit to the RPO not just being a part of your offense but being the basis of your offense. That was the way he had his very good season under Chip and that is how he has performed best for Pederson too. I think the RPO is here to stay but I don't think it on its own is a basis for a whole offensive scheme. To me Wentz gives you much more flexibility offensively in terms of what you run going forward. I just think he is a more talented Quarterback. Foles is a system guy.

Why would you do that to him? Are you a bad coach? Teams that force players to fit a system are badly coached.

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13 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

? - He was banged up this year and struggled (although his stats were good), but last year Wentz would have been MVP if not for the injury. It's way too early to be passing these judgments. 

The offense he plays in is designed for the QB to do well. Look at Mahomes, Luck and Trubisky. Wentz is a good player. I think in this offense Foles is better.

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1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

I see Wentz as more a Flacco type. He's big and strong and locks in on one or two receivers. He doesn't make quick reads but he does get the ball out. He's a good player but he's drastically overrated as a player.

 

Uhh...not even close...Wentz already has two seasons where he has a QB rating 10+ points higher than Flacco's highest season, has a season where his Yards/Attempt is higher than any of Flacco's already and has almost a 1% higher TD percentage and a 0.6% lower INT percentage...he also is much more athletic than Flacco...He also would have been named NFL MVP if he hadn't gotten injured two years ago, something Flacco has never even sniffed.

 

But yeah, other than that they are the same player...

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1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

Better in terms of overall talent and draft positioning but not a better passer of the football. A better thrower with a bigger arm yes, but Foles has better ball placement and throws a catchable ball. Wentz is living on the idea of his talent. He's a good player like Flacco and maybe as good as Matt Ryan but he's probably the most overrated QB in the entire league.

IMO, you couldn't be more wrong.

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13 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Why would you do that to him? Are you a bad coach? Teams that force players to fit a system are badly coached.

 

That wasn't what I meant. That is what the Saints did on Sunday. They got ahead shut the run game down completely, went man for man with their best DB on Jeffrey and then played zone around it and asked Foles to read the defense and make accurate throws from the pocket and he couldn't do it. No the INT on the final drive wasn't on Foles but the Saints were playing not to give up the TD on that drive and were letting Foles have some of the underneath throws. What about the other drives in the 2nd half? 

 

I like the RPO I think much more than many of the other offensive fads that have come from college in the last decade the RPO is here to stay. But I am not convinced you can build an effective offense that is heavily RPO reliant. To me it should be a tool in the toolbox. I think Foles without it is a below average QB and that limits his ceiling somewhat for me. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Midwest1981 said:

If you throw our Foles' statistically exceptional 2013 season, it's only fair to also throw out his 2015 season in St. Louis under Jeff Fisher, whose teams were infamously offensively wastelands for his last few years.  They were just embarrassingly and unimaginably bad, no matter what the personnel (Todd Gurley averaged 3.2 YPC in 2016, pre-McVay).

 

You alluded to Foles' performance in the Playoffs this year.  I absolutely agree that he played a poor game in New Orleans- after a great 1st-quarter.  But the reason his QB Rating was only 61 was because that second interception, a drop throw Jeffery's hands, dropped it 20 points.  But no, I won't simply look at that game through the prism of the box score- he didn't play well.

 

However, he week before against the Bears in Chicago, the league-leading defense in turnovers this year, probably the league's best defense, and a defense with an all-time top-5 DVOA score, 25-40 for 266  yards and 2 TD's & 2 INT's, considering how other QB's performed there this year (Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins, Matthew Stafford, etc.) against that defense... that wasn't a "bad" performance.  And he came up big in critical moments, including throwing the game-winning TD pass on 4th-down.

 

You also can't dismiss or discount how brilliantly Foles played in last year's Playoffs, at least against the Vikings in the NFC Championship Game (Minnesota's defense was arguably the league's best in 2017) & the Patriots in the Super Bowl.  His great play is encapsulated in the stats (26-33, 352 yards, 3 TD's/0 INT's & 28-43, 373, 3 TD's/1 INT, respectively) but also consider that New England only punted once all game and could scarcely be stopped- the Patriots' first 3 possessions in the second half all resulted in TD's.  So Foles had to match Brady drive for drive, play for play.  And he managed to.

 

All that said... Wentz IS the better player and should be the Eagles' starting QB in 2019 and beyond.   But Foles has still shown enough that he deserves a chance to start and IMO can be a solid, middle-tier starter, in the area of Cousins/Stafford/Dalton (anywhere from 12th-18th-best overall).  

 

His stats through his 5 regular season starts this year suggest he could be an effective starter (72.3% completion percentage, 7.1 YPA, 1,413 yards, 7 TD's/4 INT's, & 96.0 QB Rating).  But his Playoff/late-season pedigree the last two seasons implies he could lead a team on a Playoff run since he does seem to perform well in monumental moments.  Setting last year's Super Bowl run & MVP aside, the Eagles were left for dead this year at 6-7 and then Foles helps to beat the Rams on the road in week 15, throws for 471 yards & 4 TD's at home over the AFC South-winning Texans in week 16, and then gets them in the postseason the following week and makes some big throws against the vaunted Bears in the WC Round.

 

Foles isn't great but let's not pretend he's awful.  Or that there are easily more 15 QB's in the NFL better than him.

 

 

 

I agree with most of your analysis.    You can't take away the fact that Foles has had some good games with the Eagles.   But also ,  Foles has been around long enough to show  stretches of mediocrity which should immediately give pause to anyone clamoring to sign him for big bucks.     Foles isn't awful by any stretch of the imagination  but he also is not going to be the savior of a team like some are making him out to be.      Your comparison to mid tier starter like Cousins / Dalton / Stafford is a really good one. 

 

1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

When they have a problem with the person and not what's said it shows insecurity on their behalf.

 

Nah.  I just have  a problem with awful takes.     The Vontae Davis comment was meant to show how you have a tendency to pull stuff out form where the sun don't shine.

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2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Uhh...not even close...Wentz already has two seasons where he has a QB rating 10+ points higher than Flacco's highest season, has a season where his Yards/Attempt is higher than any of Flacco's already and has almost a 1% higher TD percentage and a 0.6% lower INT percentage...he also is much more athletic than Flacco...He also would have been named NFL MVP if he hadn't gotten injured two years ago, something Flacco has never even sniffed.

 

But yeah, other than that they are the same player...

Again the offense he plays is tailored to the QB having increased stats. And the rest is IFs.

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That wasn't what I meant. That is what the Saints did on Sunday. They got ahead shut the run game down completely, went man for man with their best DB on Jeffrey and then played zone around it and asked Foles to read the defense and make accurate throws from the pocket and he couldn't do it. No the INT on the final drive wasn't on Foles but the Saints were playing not to give up the TD on that drive and were letting Foles have some of the underneath throws. What about the other drives in the 2nd half? 

 

I like the RPO I think much more than many of the other offensive fads that have come from college in the last decade the RPO is here to stay. But I am not convinced you can build an effective offense that is heavily RPO reliant. To me it should be a tool in the toolbox. I think Foles without it is a below average QB and that limits his ceiling somewhat for me. 

 

 

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, prissythecat said:

Nah.  I just have  a problem with awful takes.     The Vontae Davis comment was meant to show how you have a tendency to pull stuff out form where the sun don't shine.

Nah. It was meant to distract from an argument you can't make. It's typical. Also, where was I wrong on Davis? I'm asking. Is/was there some outcome aside from what I argued?

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:31 PM, CuddyDark said:

It's a bad move. Foles sees the field better. Has a quicker release and throws a catchable ball. Wentz has a better are and more talent but he's not a better player IMO.

 

 

I hope not. I could see some Bills franchise ending crap end up like Brady wins SB #6 and retires and Belichick signs Foles who plays the same style as Brady, though not as good but goes on to win the division for 10 more years.

Yup Im petrified of NickFoles.

3 hours ago, prissythecat said:

 

 

What exactly is a catchable ball?     

 

Also,  how is Vontae Davis doing keeping his signing bonus?

He read an article.

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13 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Again the offense he plays is tailored to the QB having increased stats. And the rest is IFs.

Fair enough.

Nah. It was meant to distract from an argument you can't make. It's typical. Also, where was I wrong on Davis? I'm asking. Is/was there some outcome aside from what I argued?

 

Did I miss something about Davis unretiring so that the Bills could not clawback his bonus?   That was your argument  back in Septembe wasn't it?  I 'm still waiting lol.

 

But anyway,  back to the original argument that you try to make about Foles being the better player.  There is no objective evidence for that You just keep bringing up vague arguments about "catchable balls"  or even the absurd comparison of Wentz to Flacco .   If his ball were more catchable ,  wouldn't that show up in the QB ratings somehow?   

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1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Yup Im petrified of NickFoles.

He read an article.

No I watch the games.

1 hour ago, prissythecat said:

 

Did I miss something about Davis unretiring so that the Bills could not clawback his bonus?   That was your argument  back in Septembe wasn't it?  I 'm still waiting lol.

 

But anyway,  back to the original argument that you try to make about Foles being the better player.  There is no objective evidence for that You just keep bringing up vague arguments about "catchable balls"  or even the absurd comparison of Wentz to Flacco .   If his ball were more catchable ,  wouldn't that show up in the QB ratings somehow?   

I believe I said he could say he's injured not unretire.

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:10 PM, FeelingOnYouboty said:

I mean duh?!?

This is a nonstory. On account of it being known by this time last year. If BDN doesn't win the job after a SB run, then there's literally nothing he could have done to take the job from Wentz short of having another.

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7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fully recovered form the 2017 injury or the 2018 injury....?

Nice. I think the 2018 injury occurred because he was overcompensating for the ACL injury. We'll see what happens next year. I fully expect an MVPish season from Wentz.

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On 1/15/2019 at 11:06 PM, papazoid said:

 

if foles opts out.... philly could use franchise tag....just sayin

 

20 mil for a starter QB and 8 mil for a backup QB isn't crazy (who cares its flipped) ..….wouldn't even put them in the top 5 for % of salary cap

 

i'd keep foles for 1 more year....or trade him for value......just not letting him walk

 

If he opts out he is a Free Agent and they cannot tag him.

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14 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

If he opts out he is a Free Agent and they cannot tag him.

 

The Eagles could still place a franchise or transition tag on Foles before the 15-day designation period ended on March 5 provided he buys out the option years

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-making-sense-of-nick-foles-contract-with-eagles-and-what-happens-next/

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1 hour ago, papazoid said:

 

The Eagles could still place a franchise or transition tag on Foles before the 15-day designation period ended on March 5 provided he buys out the option years

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-making-sense-of-nick-foles-contract-with-eagles-and-what-happens-next/

They should. For two reasons. 1. Wentz is cheap. 2. Trade market could get them at least a 2nd or it's equivalence.

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