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Foles/Wentz article with interesting general insights

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Expected a rehash of the Iggles potential Wentz/Foles dilemma in this article , but there are a number of good, general points.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001009585/article/nick-foles-or-carson-wentz-eagles-face-big-offseason-decision

 

The author starts out comparing statistics and pointing out that while Wentz is the superior athlete, the Eagles have comparable stats and in some ways better with Foles at the helm.  Then they point out that "Doug Pederson definitely calls a different game with Foles, using a simplified playlist with a handful of base concepts, including mesh and shallow cross, to get his quarterback into a groove. He will repeat those same concepts from a variety of formations, but the reads and progressions are exactly the same" and even goes so far as to say "Pederson seemingly calls a better tactical game with Foles on the field."

 

Why?

 

"Wentz is by far the more talented player, but the offense operates better with the other guy on the field," a former NFL offensive assistant told me. "Foles plays within the system and the play-caller doesn't ask him to do as much when he is running the offense. ... When you have a more talented player at quarterback, you might ask him to do too much because you can see the potential. With a lesser player, you tend to be a little more balanced and lean on other aspects of the offense. That could be why the Eagles' offense looks different with the backup in."

 

OK work with me here:

#1 QB is supremely talented -> coach designs fantastic plays and schemes to exploit that talent -> team plays OK

#2 QB can play but is less overall talented -> coach simplifies the scheme and asks less of the QB -> QB plays faster and overall results better

 

I think there's a memo to many a coach there, including our own OC Mr Brian Daboll.

 

 

 

 

 

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Does anyone think Carson Wentz is rooting for the Eagles to lose?  It’s a weird situation and the more Foles wins, the weirder it gets. 

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9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Expected a rehash of the Iggles potential Wentz/Foles dilemma in this article , but there are a number of good, general points.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001009585/article/nick-foles-or-carson-wentz-eagles-face-big-offseason-decision

 

The author starts out comparing statistics and pointing out that while Wentz is the superior athlete, the Eagles have comparable stats and in some ways better with Foles at the helm.  Then they point out that "Doug Pederson definitely calls a different game with Foles, using a simplified playlist with a handful of base concepts, including mesh and shallow cross, to get his quarterback into a groove. He will repeat those same concepts from a variety of formations, but the reads and progressions are exactly the same" and even goes so far as to say "Pederson seemingly calls a better tactical game with Foles on the field."

 

Why?

 

"Wentz is by far the more talented player, but the offense operates better with the other guy on the field," a former NFL offensive assistant told me. "Foles plays within the system and the play-caller doesn't ask him to do as much when he is running the offense. ... When you have a more talented player at quarterback, you might ask him to do too much because you can see the potential. With a lesser player, you tend to be a little more balanced and lean on other aspects of the offense. That could be why the Eagles' offense looks different with the backup in."

 

OK work with me here:

#1 QB is supremely talented -> coach designs fantastic plays and schemes to exploit that talent -> team plays OK

#2 QB can play but is less overall talented -> coach simplifies the scheme and asks less of the QB -> QB plays faster and overall results better

 

I think there's a memo to many a coach there, including our own OC Mr Brian Daboll.

 

Yeah, I never understood that if things are so much simpler for Foles and yet the offense runs as well, if not better under him, why not use the same offense for Wentz?  Makes no sense.

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8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Does anyone think Carson Wentz is rooting for the Eagles to lose?  It’s a weird situation and the more Foles wins, the weirder it gets. 

 

I just don't think he's the kind of guy to do that.  He's not perfect so if the thought ran across his mind - I think he's the kind of person that would quickly reject that from his thinking. 

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When the Eagles lose today and Foles looks ordinary, all the talk will stop & Foles will be looking for next season elsewhere.  Most likely in this order: Giants, Jaguars, Dolphins or Redskins.

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12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Does anyone think Carson Wentz is rooting for the Eagles to lose?  It’s a weird situation and the more Foles wins, the weirder it gets. 

Absolutely. We're all a little bit selfish. The whole situation has to be eating him alive and I don't think he would have minded if that kick went in. Just an incredibly odd situation. There's little doubt in my mind that he's at least conflicted.

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32 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

When the Eagles lose today and Foles looks ordinary, all the talk will stop & Foles will be looking for next season elsewhere.  Most likely in this order: Giants, Jaguars, Dolphins or Redskins.

Ya but the pressure still mounts for Wentz  ,  This is the 2nd year in a row he has a season ending injury, which can't be good for his growth and Even with a loss, Foles is 4-1 in the post season last two years. Like a poster said, a very weird situation indeed

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57 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Expected a rehash of the Iggles potential Wentz/Foles dilemma in this article , but there are a number of good, general points.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001009585/article/nick-foles-or-carson-wentz-eagles-face-big-offseason-decision

 

The author starts out comparing statistics and pointing out that while Wentz is the superior athlete, the Eagles have comparable stats and in some ways better with Foles at the helm.  Then they point out that "Doug Pederson definitely calls a different game with Foles, using a simplified playlist with a handful of base concepts, including mesh and shallow cross, to get his quarterback into a groove. He will repeat those same concepts from a variety of formations, but the reads and progressions are exactly the same" and even goes so far as to say "Pederson seemingly calls a better tactical game with Foles on the field."

 

Why?

 

"Wentz is by far the more talented player, but the offense operates better with the other guy on the field," a former NFL offensive assistant told me. "Foles plays within the system and the play-caller doesn't ask him to do as much when he is running the offense. ... When you have a more talented player at quarterback, you might ask him to do too much because you can see the potential. With a lesser player, you tend to be a little more balanced and lean on other aspects of the offense. That could be why the Eagles' offense looks different with the backup in."

 

OK work with me here:

#1 QB is supremely talented -> coach designs fantastic plays and schemes to exploit that talent -> team plays OK

#2 QB can play but is less overall talented -> coach simplifies the scheme and asks less of the QB -> QB plays faster and overall results better

 

I think there's a memo to many a coach there, including our own OC Mr Brian Daboll.

 

 

 

 

 

One would have to wonder if that formula is sustainable or if the superior player/more complex scheme has more staying power. In the small sample size with the Bills, you could point to Barkley's one game with a dumbed down playbook/inferior player as being effective. Maybe DA just sucks and his performances don't factor in. It seems as though you're suggesting Daboll simplify the playbook for Allen. Not quite sure how I feel about that over the long haul. I would personally stick with Wentz and the expanded playbook, but it's an interesting debate.

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37 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Absolutely. We're all a little bit selfish. The whole situation has to be eating him alive and I don't think he would have minded if that kick went in. Just an incredibly odd situation. There's little doubt in my mind that he's at least conflicted.

I lost my starting job in training camp (playing S and getting beat by TEs over the top on play action) and I sulked like a baby and hoped my replacement would screw up.  I feel like a Richard but I also wanted to play.  And he did and I  practiced hard and got my job back the next week.

 

i think this Foles-Wentz thing has already split their terrible fans.  And it’s hard to win if you’re Wentz going against BD Nick.  Wentz is probably hoping The Saints destroy them. 🤞

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6 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Ya but the pressure still mounts for Wentz  ,  This is the 2nd year in a row he has a season ending injury, which can't be good for his growth and Even with a loss, Foles is 4-1 in the post season last two years. Like a poster said, a very weird situation indeed

How?

 

They won the SB last year and haven't lost yet today.

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Just now, Real McCoy said:

How?

 

They won the SB last year and haven't lost yet today.

I said even with a "loss this weekend"

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2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I said even with a "loss this weekend"

You did , my bad.

Read it too fast and incorrectly.

 

To the topic, I just don't understand why coaches just don't play to players strengths? This Wentz vs Foles play calling almost reminds me of a great D the Rex Ryan destroyed.

Edited by Real McCoy
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This reminds me somewhat of a few coaches that have gone with what they have rather than drastically change a roster or personnel in an area (offense or defense) to suit their style.  Wade wasn't a great HC in Dallas, but he knows defense and those that he worked with in Denver were fantastic this last time around.  He didn't impose a 3-4, but used DeMarcus Ware and Von Miller along with a talented secondary quite effectively.  Or, Mike Tomlin upon going from Minnesota's Tampa 2 as DC to being Pittsburgh's HC that already had a 3-4 going.  He didn't change things. 

 

Counter that with McCoach who rebuilt the defense, has traded key personnel, and made sure the rebuild would take at least 3 years to complete.  

 

In a perfect world, I'd want a HC and coordinators who are flexible and use the talent they are presented with rather than do a complete tear-off.  That didn't happen in Buffalo.  Yet, we're going to see what McBeane do in off-season year 3 now that they've got their way.  

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2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

This reminds me somewhat of a few coaches that have gone with what they have rather than drastically change a roster or personnel in an area (offense or defense) to suit their style.  Wade wasn't a great HC in Dallas, but he knows defense and those that he worked with in Denver were fantastic this last time around.  He didn't impose a 3-4, but used DeMarcus Ware and Von Miller along with a talented secondary quite effectively.  Or, Mike Tomlin upon going from Minnesota's Tampa 2 as DC to being Pittsburgh's HC that already had a 3-4 going.  He didn't change things. 

 

Counter that with McCoach who rebuilt the defense, has traded key personnel, and made sure the rebuild would take at least 3 years to complete.  

 

In a perfect world, I'd want a HC and coordinators who are flexible and use the talent they are presented with rather than do a complete tear-off.  That didn't happen in Buffalo.  Yet, we're going to see what McBeane do in off-season year 3 now that they've got their way.  

Good post but to be fair, I far less problem with what SM did than Rex. Rex destroyed a great unit.  That group SM inherited wasn’t that great. 

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50 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

One would have to wonder if that formula is sustainable or if the superior player/more complex scheme has more staying power. In the small sample size with the Bills, you could point to Barkley's one game with a dumbed down playbook/inferior player as being effective. Maybe DA just sucks and his performances don't factor in. It seems as though you're suggesting Daboll simplify the playbook for Allen. Not quite sure how I feel about that over the long haul. I would personally stick with Wentz and the expanded playbook, but it's an interesting debate.

 

Yes, that is on my mind - "KISS, Daboll, KISS".  Not just for Allen, but for the whole offense - new to us/rookie OLmen, new to us/rookie WR etc. 

We hear that all the time when a team turns it around - "what made the difference for your team this year?" "coach Phillips simplified the playbook for us"

 

The thing is, especially with a superior athlete who needs KISS because new, it doesn't have to be 'sustainable over the long haul'.  One can start simple, and add complexity over time. 

 

With Foles and all his years in the league, that could be a different calculus.

But the point is, whatever Pederson is doing, it's apparently a bit more successful with Foles, so maybe he should reassess what's going on with Wentz (assuming they do what everyone expects and roll with him)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, that is on my mind - "KISS, Daboll, KISS".  Not just for Allen, but for the whole offense - new to us/rookie OLmen, new to us/rookie WR etc. 

We hear that all the time when a team turns it around - "what made the difference for your team this year?" "coach Phillips simplified the playbook for us"

 

The thing is, especially with a superior athlete who needs KISS because new, it doesn't have to be 'sustainable over the long haul'.  One can start simple, and add complexity over time. 

 

With Foles and all his years in the league, that could be a different calculus.

But the point is, whatever Pederson is doing, it's apparently a bit more successful with Foles, so maybe he should reassess what's going on with Wentz (assuming they do what everyone expects and roll with him)

 

 

OC's tend to want to be innovate I suppose. That means expanded playbooks, etc. Daboll is no different. I think what you're getting at is the Bills offense would have had better results with a simplified playbook, especially with a rookie QB. Can't argue with that. There is the possibility that being thrown to the wolves with the complex playbook may help Allen long term, especially if that combo remains together for an extended period of time. Either way, interesting topic.

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If less physical talent leads to better results, Peterman should be headed to the HOF!

 

 

 

 

(Sorry, but it seemed somebody had to do it.) 

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Potential vs production.  If Foles gets slapped around in NO it puts all this to sleep.  If Foles takes the eagles to the NFC championship and beyond I think it's a real question to have.  Regardless of opinion, the Wrs produce more under Foles and the team plays better.  It's a massive if, but if Foles takes them to 2 consecutive superbowls and he is only 30 I trade Wentz.  I would asked for 2 firsts and a player.  Jacksonville 2 ones and Ramsey for Wentz.

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Depending on how deep the Eagles go in these play offs the off season in Philly should be rather interesting ! Just say Foles wins them another SB do you let the guy walk ? Or do you trade the youngster that has a bit of a injury problem ?

 

Folks didn't do real well in St. Louis & that could be what happens in Philly if he is given the big bucks or should i stay that is what usually happens when a player is given the big bucks in this type of situation .

 

I know i wouldn't want to be the guy making that decision because if it doesn't go as planned he'd be screwed to a life of remember how stupid he was for doing

that !! 

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20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Does anyone think Carson Wentz is rooting for the Eagles to lose?  It’s a weird situation and the more Foles wins, the weirder it gets. 

 

Does Wentz want them to lose? I very much doubt that. He will be a starting QB no matter what, somewhere.

20 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

When the Eagles lose today and Foles looks ordinary, all the talk will stop & Foles will be looking for next season elsewhere.  Most likely in this order: Giants, Jaguars, Dolphins or Redskins.

 

He can look ordinary and he will still be highly sought after.....even by the Eagles.

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If only Parkey had made that damn kick last week,  then we wouldnt have to hear about the Foles vs Wentz debate ad nauseum

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21 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Does anyone think Carson Wentz is rooting for the Eagles to lose?  It’s a weird situation and the more Foles wins, the weirder it gets. 

nah. For as much as they see each other and fight for each other during the season and to see payers out on the field when maybe they were physically beat, I can't believe he would do that. Even internally. As to the OP's original thoughts, I agree. Maybe Wetnz should have a sit down in the offseason and tell coach, " I just want to win, whatever it takes. I don't care if you simplify the game plan. Just win , baby"!!!  Wentz might have a healthier season if they simplify things.

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I think people are equating "wanting them to lose" with actively, consciously watching the game and hoping his teammates fail. The human psyche is a bit more complex. While I'm sure he doesn't have any knived out Foles' dolls, there's most likely a small part of him that doesn't want to watch yet another Eagles Superbowl from the sidelines.

 

The human brain can walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

You think Tyrod wanted Peterman to light it up against the Chargers? By all accounts, Tyrod is a high character guy much like Wentz. Doesn't make them infallible.

Edited by LSHMEAB

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20 hours ago, BillsVet said:

This reminds me somewhat of a few coaches that have gone with what they have rather than drastically change a roster or personnel in an area (offense or defense) to suit their style.  Wade wasn't a great HC in Dallas, but he knows defense and those that he worked with in Denver were fantastic this last time around.  He didn't impose a 3-4, but used DeMarcus Ware and Von Miller along with a talented secondary quite effectively.  Or, Mike Tomlin upon going from Minnesota's Tampa 2 as DC to being Pittsburgh's HC that already had a 3-4 going.  He didn't change things. 

 

Counter that with McCoach who rebuilt the defense, has traded key personnel, and made sure the rebuild would take at least 3 years to complete.  

 

In a perfect world, I'd want a HC and coordinators who are flexible and use the talent they are presented with rather than do a complete tear-off.  That didn't happen in Buffalo.  Yet, we're going to see what McBeane do in off-season year 3 now that they've got their way.  

 

McDermott had to tear it down. Over paid lazy players, divas, players sleeping during meetings. Rex destroyed the will and buildness to our team. 

 

 

Edited by Buffalo Bills Fan

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