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Just got a stadium survey from the Bills

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22 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

So new stadiums mean fans won't get drunk?

 

Yes, they will not be able to afford drinks,

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On 1/10/2019 at 11:47 PM, Just Jack said:

 

Last number I recall was 60K. But we don't know how many of those are pure scalpers. Imagine telling 10,000 fans here's your nice new stadium, but we don't have enough seats now, so you're out. 

 

Sort of like now where seats are bought up by scalpers with early access before non-season holders can buy them.

On 1/10/2019 at 8:36 PM, The Senator said:

 

I don’t think the demand for tickets could be satisfied at 45,000-50,000.  We’ve had more season ticket holders than that when we’re winning, or at least promising that we’re gonna be winning. 😎

 

Also, the NFL requires a stadium capacity of at least 70,000 to host the Super Bowl.  So even if we build something that holds 65,000-68,000, which seem reasonable to me for a city our size, we still could never host a Super Bowl.

 

Not saying we will, or could, ever host the Super Bowl, because the NFL also requires sufficient hotel capacity to host the guests.

 

Another reason for Pegulas to tell them no we will not upgrade stadium until Superbowl is promised and we do not care how many owners who do get Superbowls repeatedly say.

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5 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

So new stadiums mean fans won't get drunk?

It would cater to a more upscale demographic, which would likely reduce the amount of drunks attending the game. 

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I like the idea of a multi sport complex. Maybe a design that has moveable seats that can accommodate a hockey arena. 

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5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

It would cater to a more upscale demographic, which would likely reduce the amount of drunks attending the game. 

  A new stadium just means a different kind of drunk.  The absence of tailgating will reduce the most extreme examples of drunkenness but the desire of many here to have a bar district near a new stadium tells me boorish drunks will still be around.  Accidents many even increase as drunken patrons make their way down the street from the bar to the stadium.  I would even guess that the Pegula's in secret are hoping for an incident in another NFL city to bring on the NFL requiring all fans blow into a breathalyzer before making their way through the gates.  Problem is solved and the Pegula's can deflect blame to the more faceless NFL lawyers.

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1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  A new stadium just means a different kind of drunk.  The absence of tailgating will reduce the most extreme examples of drunkenness but the desire of many here to have a bar district near a new stadium tells me boorish drunks will still be around.  Accidents many even increase as drunken patrons make their way down the street from the bar to the stadium.  I would even guess that the Pegula's in secret are hoping for an incident in another NFL city to bring on the NFL requiring all fans blow into a breathalyzer before making their way through the gates.  Problem is solved and the Pegula's can deflect blame to the more faceless NFL lawyers.

Interesting theory, I guess ? However, I’m not buying it. It is reasonable to expect less rowdy drunken behavior as the price of attendance increases. Your assumption that potential attendees are just varying types of drunks is presumptuous to say the least. Breathalyzers at the gates is folly and will not happen. 

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3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Interesting theory, I guess ? However, I’m not buying it. It is reasonable to expect less rowdy drunken behavior as the price of attendance increases. Your assumption that potential attendees are just varying types of drunks is presumptuous to say the least. Breathalyzers at the gates is folly and will not happen. 

  The price increase will have to be very gradual to keep people coming to games.  I don't think that if somebody has to pay an additional 20-30 bucks per seat is going to have that disrupt his drinking plans especially if a group is involved.  Minimum wage just went up from 10.40 to 11.10 per hour so if a drunk works 40 hours per week he probably has the price increase already covered.  Now if you want to talk about the Bills having a prolonged period of success after in the new stadium then they can be more audacious about price increases to the point of weeding out undesirable fans.  But for the foreseeable future I see nothing to deter the extreme drunks new stadium or otherwise.  By the way there are a couple of minimum wage hikes yet to come.  

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1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  The price increase will have to be very gradual to keep people coming to games.  I don't think that if somebody has to pay an additional 20-30 bucks per seat is going to have that disrupt his drinking plans especially if a group is involved.  Minimum wage just went up from 10.40 to 11.10 per hour so if a drunk works 40 hours per week he probably has the price increase already covered.  Now if you want to talk about the Bills having a prolonged period of success after in the new stadium then they can be more audacious about price increases to the point of weeding out undesirable fans.  But for the foreseeable future I see nothing to deter the extreme drunks new stadium or otherwise.  By the way there are a couple of minimum wage hikes yet to come.  

The price increase in a new facility would not be gradual or minimal. The capacity would be reduced significantly to create demand and remove the flood of cheap tickets from the market.  The best seats in the current stadium are wildly underpriced vs the secondary market . Without a significant upgrade in amenities there is no pricing power to charge more for the same seat at NEF. Any price increase there would indeed have to be more modest. A new facility with less seats , better amenities and even climate control would be priced accordingly and much closer to the rest of the NFL. In a nutshell, the welfare ticket prices would be a thing of the past. Increases in the minimum wage will have minimal if any impact on this. 

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Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Interesting theory, I guess ? However, I’m not buying it. It is reasonable to expect less rowdy drunken behavior as the price of attendance increases. Your assumption that potential attendees are just varying types of drunks is presumptuous to say the least. Breathalyzers at the gates is folly and will not happen. 

 

...understand your theory, don't you have to consider the market from which to draw from?....you're assuming a higher price point would force those you may term as "marginally undesireables" out of the picture due to affordability....then I assume a "cleaned up atmosphere" and higher ticket prices would bring more affluent, better behaved clientele.....figure 45,000 season tix holders and average game attendance of 65,000 to make it financially work.....excluding the undesireables (a/k/a drunks) to be replaced by a more affluent crowd (how do you know their drunkedness/tailgating isn't steaks and vodka versus chili and beer with SAME result) is a major marketing undertaking and assessment IMO.....

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47 minutes ago, mattynh said:

wishful thinking

That’s why God invented those little airplane bottles.  Oh wait, I better not say gee-oh-dee on here.  That’s why Hiram Walker invented those little airplane bottles.

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4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The price increase in a new facility would not be gradual or minimal. The capacity would be reduced significantly to create demand and remove the flood of cheap tickets from the market.  The best seats in the current stadium are wildly underpriced vs the secondary market . Without a significant upgrade in amenities there is no pricing power to charge more for the same seat at NEF. Any price increase there would indeed have to be more modest. A new facility with less seats , better amenities and even climate control would be priced accordingly and much closer to the rest of the NFL. In a nutshell, the welfare ticket prices would be a thing of the past. Increases in the minimum wage will have minimal if any impact on this. 

  The team has won very little to this point so if in theory they move into a new stadium within 5 years it would take the kind of success associated with making the conference championship game a couple of times to get people in the upper deck of a new stadium to pay double the normal rate of non-discounted seats.  And that in my mind is somewhat presumptuous in terms of the attitude of potential buyers.  There are decades of skepticism to overcome even with new owners.  Also, I think that in this market the "safety in numbers" approach is best in that high rollers will probably come and go but Joe Fan who may not make 60K per year is there to buoy the revenue.  I still think that the new stadium will hold 65,000 and perhaps 70,000.

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25 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...understand your theory, don't you have to consider the market from which to draw from?....you're assuming a higher price point would force those you may term as "marginally undesireables" out of the picture due to affordability....then I assume a "cleaned up atmosphere" and higher ticket prices would bring more affluent, better behaved clientele.....figure 45,000 season tix holders and average game attendance of 65,000 to make it financially work.....excluding the undesireables (a/k/a drunks) to be replaced by a more affluent crowd (how do you know their drunkedness/tailgating isn't steaks and vodka versus chili and beer with SAME result) is a major marketing undertaking and assessment IMO.....

The choice of liquid to imbibe is irrelevant . Rather it is more about the expected social behavior of said demographic that is consuming the libation of choice. Anyway, the Bills current stadium situation leaves them massively underpriced vs the rest of the NFL. The  way to turn that around is to tap into a ( currently unserved ) market that stays away for 3/4ths of the season or just in general. This can only be achieved by offerening a climate controlled environment, imo. The market exists in the area, but these fans aren’t interested in freezing at most games while surrounded by drunken rowdies. The current situation has a flood of cheap tickets that some fans purchase then resell on the secondary market at higher prices to finance their original seat purchase. The Bills get none of those dollars. We’ll see what they do to change this untenable system around. I’d guess a new, covered facility with lower capacity say 60-65 k at much higher prices for the best seats. More upmarket food and drink choices will cater to a more well heeled fan more interested in the accoutrements to go with the game experience. Not the guy consuming in the parking lot before the game. That fan does nothing to increase the Bills revenue stream. That’s the model in the new NFL that the Bills have yet to join. 

Edited by Boatdrinks

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6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  The team has won very little to this point so if in theory they move into a new stadium within 5 years it would take the kind of success associated with making the conference championship game a couple of times to get people in the upper deck of a new stadium to pay double the normal rate of non-discounted seats.  And that in my mind is somewhat presumptuous in terms of the attitude of potential buyers.  There are decades of skepticism to overcome even with new owners.  Also, I think that in this market the "safety in numbers" approach is best in that high rollers will probably come and go but Joe Fan who may not make 60K per year is there to buoy the revenue.  I still think that the new stadium will hold 65,000 and perhaps 70,000.

Attendance is down across the league, and the new normal would dictate less seats. The less affluent “ Joe Fan” types will probably go to the games in whatever seat they can afford into perpetuity. As you’ve stated, the team hasn’t won in many years, yet those fans go anyway. Winning however is never guaranteed. A new facility would be all about increasing revenue streams to be more in line with the rest of the league. That means providing a certain level of amenities and gameday experience as well as a comfortable climate controlled environment. The market for more expensive seats exists as revealed by the secondary seat websites. Current ticket holders and scalpers profit from this, not the Bills. The secondary market also shows more demand for warm weather games, certain opponents and of course if the team is winning. The current facility, short of a massive upgrade doesn’t give the Pegulas any more pricing power for the same seat in a spartan stadium. This will be an interesting decision for sure. 

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8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The choice of liquid to imbibe is irrelevant . Rather it is more about the expected social behavior of said demographic that is consuming the libation of choice. Anyway, the Bills current stadium situation leaves them massively underpriced vs the rest of the NFL. The only way to turn that around and tap into a ( currently unserved ) market that stays away for 3/4ths of the season or just in general. This can only be achieved by offerening a climate controlled environment, imo. The market exists in the area, but these fans aren’t interested in freezing at most games while surrounded by drunken rowdies. The current situation has a flood of cheap tickets that some fans purchase then resell on the secondary market at higher prices to finance their original seat purchase. The Bills get none of those dollars. We’ll see what they do to change this untenable system around. I’d guess a new, covered facility with lower capacity say 60-65 k at much higher prices for the best seats. More upmarket food and drink choices will cater to a more well heeled fan more interested in the accoutrements to go with the game experience. Not the guy consuming in the parking lot before the game. That fan does nothing to increase the Bills revenue stream. That’s the model in the new NFL that the Bills have yet to join. 

 

...would certainly agree to a domed, multi-purpose facility ala Lucas Oil Field as a far greater drawing card...LOF was built in 2008 at $700 mil which is $843 mil tin 2018 dollars....

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Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...would certainly agree to a domed, multi-purpose facility ala Lucas Oil Field as a far greater drawing card...LOF was built in 2008 at $700 mil which is $843 mil tin 2018 dollars....

Yep, that kind of facility is a model to follow. A massive overhaul of NEF will be expensive and won’t give that kind of pricing power due to the limitations of the design. This is a difficult dilemma to navigate and will be watched with great interest. 

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7 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

So new stadiums mean fans won't get drunk?

The hope is the majority of the idiots who get drunk at New Era won't be able to afford tickets in a new venue. Of corse there are always exceptions, but should be more outlier.

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14 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

All of the stadiums you mention were built with expansion capability to 70,000+.

 

In fact, the smallest you mention, State Farm, held 78,000+ for the 2016 FBS title game.

 

But you are right, Buffalo could never host the Big Game, and here’s why...

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2014/06/09/super-bowl-2018-requirements-minnesota-vikings

 

.

 

Yeah, I understand that. I wasn't trying to disagree with you, I was only elaborating a bit further on the capacity statement. I stated the "regular operating stadium capacity" can be under 70,000. 

If the Bills built a new stadium, it could have a 63k-65k capacity & be just fine to host a Super Bowl (though as we know that won't happen anyway). Every stadium is built with the ability to expand capacity for certain events, it's just they don't operate that way on a regular basis. If a stadium like the Jones AT&T stadium in Dallas has a capacity of 80,000 but can expand to 100k, that doesn't mean that on a regular basis they have 20,000 empty seats just sitting there. And when they expand to 100k for an event like the Super Bowl, they don't build onto the thing, they implement other things to increase capacity (usually by manipulating available space in a more efficient way).

So yeah, if the Bills built a new stadium there's no doubt it would be built with the ability to expand seating capacity if the need arose. But just as your link explains, there's a laundry list of standards the Bills & Buffalo would have to meet in order to host a Super Bowl that at the moment they definitely cannot meet.

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With the UB Football team up and coming I would love to see some collaboration between the Bills and UB in creating a joint stadium.  Unfortunately, I think a water front stadium would be a logistical nightmare at this point.

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