Zebra Watch: 1st year refs may be a problem for Bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

So TBN had an interesting article on refereeing in the NFL. (caveat: subscription, but I'll try to hit the key points)

https://buffalonews.com/2019/01/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-penalties-shawn-hochuli/

 

Bottom line: first year referees penalized teams at a higher than normal rate. " Officiating crews assessed 3,447 penalties in 2018, the most ever. First-year referees Shawn Hochuli and Shawn Smith called the most penalties, with Hochuli’s crew handing out an NFL-record 253 and Smith’s crew assessing 228. For comparison, Bill Vinovich’s crew called the fewest penalties at 169. "

 

Almost half - 7 out of 16 Bills games - were refereed by 1st year officials.  "The team was penalized 61 times in those games, an average of 8.7 per game, as opposed to an average of 6.1 in games called by veteran officials."  Basically, almost another 3 penalties.

 

The NFL has GOT to do something to standardize refereeing and bring it in line.  It simply should NOT make that much difference who the referee is.  And for those who aren't fond of Hochuli jr - maybe you've got a reason.

 

That said, the Bills aren't living by Marv Levy's precept "Don't be Dumb, Don't be Dirty": " Of the 13 penalties that cost the Bills 120 yards that day, six of them came before or after the whistle".

 

That's simply unacceptable and IMO does not represent good coaching.

 

 

 

[mead107]

Thought it was real bad this year.  I wonder sometimes what the refs are looking at.  Just call it the same for both teams. 

[aceman_16]

I TOTALLY agree! I cringe, at times, when I see which officiating crew we drew. I wonder what the % of new crews New England got.

[Moulds_80]

With our games aside( which i think were for the most part awful)....  this has been an issue league wide and is taking away from the game.

 

something absolutely needs to be done

[formerlyofCtown]

43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So TBN had an interesting article on refereeing in the NFL. (caveat: subscription, but I'll try to hit the key points)

https://buffalonews.com/2019/01/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-penalties-shawn-hochuli/

 

Bottom line: first year referees penalized teams at a higher than normal rate. " Officiating crews assessed 3,447 penalties in 2018, the most ever. First-year referees Shawn Hochuli and Shawn Smith called the most penalties, with Hochuli’s crew handing out an NFL-record 253 and Smith’s crew assessing 228. For comparison, Bill Vinovich’s crew called the fewest penalties at 169. "

 

Almost half - 7 out of 16 Bills games - were refereed by 1st year officials.  "The team was penalized 61 times in those games, an average of 8.7 per game, as opposed to an average of 6.1 in games called by veteran officials."  Basically, almost another 3 penalties.

 

The NFL has GOT to do something to standardize refereeing and bring it in line.  It simply should NOT make that much difference who the referee is.  And for those who aren't fond of Hochuli jr - maybe you've got a reason.

 

That said, the Bills aren't living by Marv Levy's precept "Don't be Dumb, Don't be Dirty": " Of the 13 penalties that cost the Bills 120 yards that day, six of them came before or after the whistle".

 

That's simply unacceptable and IMO does not represent good coaching.

 

 

 

That is probably why we are getting a new coordinator.

Edited January 9, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, formerlyofCtown said:

That is probably why we are getting new coordinators.

 

?!!

only one?   or am I missing some news?

 

[formerlyofCtown]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

?!!

only one?   or am I missing some news?

 

Thanks.

[Coach Tuesday]

With gambling legalized the problem is now DIRE.

[LSHMEAB]

I hate getting into conspiracy nonsense, but I truly believe we get screwed by the refs because the Bills being good is perceived as bad for the league financially. Outside of the rabid fanbase, we're largely viewed as a team that doesn't interest people. Of course that could change if we develop some stars, but that's the way I see it for now.

 

Conversely, as a Michigan fan, I feel like they get the benefit of officiating because Michigan is good for business. 

 

This is obviously not the case across the board and officials can't even necessarily cost us games, but it's a small factor IMO. 

 

As to standardization of officiating, I think it's almost impossible. I'm all in favor of replay for certain penalties as well as enhanced use of technology, but I doubt that would be a popular proposition as the league probably doesn't want to expand average game length.

[17years&waiting]

Just out of curiosity: a full ref crew is 7 or 8 officials.  The head ref is 1st year, but are the entire crews new, also?  My understanding is that new officials are plugged into the various referee crews, as needed.  So, for this to be an interesting statistical analysis, I would be interested in seeing how many flags the new actual head referees threw versus the veteran head referees.  Otherwise, we are comparing the amount of Pass Interference penalties that the Back Judge is throwing between two different ref crews, although the Back Judge may be a veteran official in both cases.

 

It does seem that the ref crews seem to take the personality of the head official, to a certain extent.  It seemed like Ed Hochuli's crew always was very ticky-tack with penalties and Jerome Boger's crew doesn't ever seem to know what's going on.  I'm not sure why that is.

[IgotBILLStopay]

While this article makes a fair point about 1st year Refs, it still does not address the core issue of disparity. Bills, being a small market team, always get penalized more (unfairly) whether by veterans or by 1st year Refs.

Edited January 9, 2019 by IgotBILLStopay

[WideNine]

I think there is even a problem with the replays that go back to their league office, as they have overruled some on the field calls (like the KB touchdown in our 1st game against NE) where there was no video evidence to the contrary. Then alleged video review upheld a rushing TD (our 2nd game in NE) where it was clear that the NE RB was down and the ball did not cross the goal line.

 

It boggles the mind and even retired referees who are now commentators have lamented that they are ruining the game.

 

It also does not help that they police themselves and tell all the fans that they are awesome and get most all the calls they make correct. They do not even touch the fact that sure you can call a hold and it can be enough to be the correct call, but are you balanced and calling it the same for both teams. If not, it is not a good call, it is a call that should not be made.

 

The league officiating website has a web page devoted to "these-officials-are-really-good" - they are just so professional....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by WideNine

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Nice find. I thought there was something fishy about son of hochuli.

[The Wiz]

Add in old man Coleman for week 12 against the Jags as there were 13 penalties called against the bills that game.  I get the younger guys calling more because of inexperience but when you have a vet calling that many it's just as fishy.

[SoCal Deek]

It seems like penalties are way down in the playoffs. Is that because the teams are committing them? Or is it because the refs aren’t calling them? The NFL has become way too impacted by ‘judgement’ calls. 

[Big Turk]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So TBN had an interesting article on refereeing in the NFL. (caveat: subscription, but I'll try to hit the key points)

https://buffalonews.com/2019/01/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-penalties-shawn-hochuli/

 

Bottom line: first year referees penalized teams at a higher than normal rate. " Officiating crews assessed 3,447 penalties in 2018, the most ever. First-year referees Shawn Hochuli and Shawn Smith called the most penalties, with Hochuli’s crew handing out an NFL-record 253 and Smith’s crew assessing 228. For comparison, Bill Vinovich’s crew called the fewest penalties at 169. "

 

Almost half - 7 out of 16 Bills games - were refereed by 1st year officials.  "The team was penalized 61 times in those games, an average of 8.7 per game, as opposed to an average of 6.1 in games called by veteran officials."  Basically, almost another 3 penalties.

 

The NFL has GOT to do something to standardize refereeing and bring it in line.  It simply should NOT make that much difference who the referee is.  And for those who aren't fond of Hochuli jr - maybe you've got a reason.

 

That said, the Bills aren't living by Marv Levy's precept "Don't be Dumb, Don't be Dirty": " Of the 13 penalties that cost the Bills 120 yards that day, six of them came before or after the whistle".

 

That's simply unacceptable and IMO does not represent good coaching.

 

 

 

You know how it is when you are new on the job...you do everything "by the book"...as you gain experience you start using your judgement better through experiences you have had and potential meetings and review sessions with the NFL. Nothing more than normal human behavior here that takes place no matter where you work.

Edited January 9, 2019 by matter2003

[mjt328]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So TBN had an interesting article on refereeing in the NFL. (caveat: subscription, but I'll try to hit the key points)

https://buffalonews.com/2019/01/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-penalties-shawn-hochuli/

 

Bottom line: first year referees penalized teams at a higher than normal rate. " Officiating crews assessed 3,447 penalties in 2018, the most ever. First-year referees Shawn Hochuli and Shawn Smith called the most penalties, with Hochuli’s crew handing out an NFL-record 253 and Smith’s crew assessing 228. For comparison, Bill Vinovich’s crew called the fewest penalties at 169. "

 

Almost half - 7 out of 16 Bills games - were refereed by 1st year officials.  "The team was penalized 61 times in those games, an average of 8.7 per game, as opposed to an average of 6.1 in games called by veteran officials."  Basically, almost another 3 penalties.

 

The NFL has GOT to do something to standardize refereeing and bring it in line.  It simply should NOT make that much difference who the referee is.  And for those who aren't fond of Hochuli jr - maybe you've got a reason.

 

That said, the Bills aren't living by Marv Levy's precept "Don't be Dumb, Don't be Dirty": " Of the 13 penalties that cost the Bills 120 yards that day, six of them came before or after the whistle".

 

That's simply unacceptable and IMO does not represent good coaching.

 

 

I'm curious how penalties are a reflection of good/bad coaching.

 

Pretty sure every line coach in the NFL teaches their OL and DL players not to jump before the snap. 

Pretty sure every coach teaches proper blocking techniques, and how to not get called for holding.

Pretty sure every DBs coach wants his corners to be aggressive in coverage without committing pass interference.

Pretty sure every player is taught to be smart and not commit stupid personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.

 

I recall when Rex Ryan was here, the fans BLASTED him because of the high number of penalties.  They said his relaxed and undisciplined culture was being reflected on the field -- even though Ryan's prior NY Jets teams were historically very low in penalties.  So now we hire a very disciplined methodical coach in Sean McDermott, and the problem of high penalties has continued.  Despite (at least) half of the players being different than during Ryan's tenure, the problem of high penalties has continued.

 

My opinion is that penalties aren't a coaching thing.  They aren't even a team culture thing. 

It's a player-by-player thing, and some guys are just sloppy, unfocused, undisciplined, overly aggressive, have poor technique, etc.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

You know how it is when you are new on the job...you do everything "by the book"...as you gain experience you start using your judgement better through experiences you have had and potential meetings and review sessions with the NFL. Nothing more than normal human behavior here that takes place no matter where you work.

 

That's valid, Matter.  But it begs the point: do all teams have the same % of games with 1st year officials?

Because that seems like a significant difference in number of penalties - and we all know that penalties can influence the outcome of a drive or even a game.

So if Team A has only 2 games with 1st year refs while Team B has 7 games, that would be "competitive advantage Team A"

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's valid, Matter.  But it begs the point: do all teams have the same % of games with 1st year officials?

Because that seems like a significant difference in number of penalties - and we all know that penalties can influence the outcome of a drive or even a game.

So if Team A has only 2 games with 1st year refs while Team B has 7 games, that would be "competitive advantage Team A"

 

But this begs the question more as to if 1st year refs throw more flags and we had a large percentage of games with them, how is it that Jerry Hughes was getting mugged on almost every pass play and almost never had holding called against the LT??

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

I'm curious how penalties are a reflection of good/bad coaching.

 

Pretty sure every line coach in the NFL teaches their OL and DL players not to jump before the snap. 

Pretty sure every coach teaches proper blocking techniques, and how to not get called for holding.

Pretty sure every DBs coach wants his corners to be aggressive in coverage without committing pass interference.

Pretty sure every player is taught to be smart and not commit stupid personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.

 

I recall when Rex Ryan was here, the fans BLASTED him because of the high number of penalties.  They said his relaxed and undisciplined culture was being reflected on the field -- even though Ryan's prior NY Jets teams were historically very low in penalties.  So now we hire a very disciplined methodical coach in Sean McDermott, and the problem of high penalties has continued.  Despite (at least) half of the players being different than during Ryan's tenure, the problem of high penalties has continued.

 

My opinion is that penalties aren't a coaching thing.  They aren't even a team culture thing. 

It's a player-by-player thing, and some guys are just sloppy, unfocused, undisciplined, overly aggressive, have poor technique, etc.

 

It's a fair point that certain players tend to be hot-heads.

But don't you think the specifics of coaching, especially by the assistants in charge of each room, influence focus, discipline, and technique?

Most people seem to think so

 

As for Rex, you could make the same point about how his prior NY Jets teams were historically stout on defense - therefore he should have been a great defensive coach for us.

I think the problem with Rex is that he had "checked out" and his head wasn't 100% in it when he was here.