Jump to content
Alphadawg7

Does CFB Championship game end the “they can beat a pro team” stuff finally?

Recommended Posts

On 1/7/2019 at 11:47 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

So does the CFB Championship game mean Clemson can beat the Bills?!?!  LMAO

 

Still hilarious at all the Alabama would beat the Bills talk, Bills can’t cover the spread, etc. when they just got whooped by another College team.  

 

I hope this “So and So College team can beat So and So Pro team” stuff finally dies.  It’s a farce.  

 

GO BILLS!  

 

Why does this bother you so much? It's just content for outlets, it happens once every few years.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, mannc said:

Oh, you mean the game where he beat the Bengals on the road?😃 

 

 

Deshaun Watson beat the Bengals? Sorry, but such a thing never happened.

 

What happened was that Watson played quarterback while his team beat the Bengals by a score of 13 - 9.

 

Yeah, his team beat the Bengals on the road, mostly through the defense holding the Bengals to 9 points. Whereas Houston scored 13 points, three of which came on a 12 yard drive from the Cincy 20 to the Cincy 8.

 

Houston's drives that first game for Watson looked like this:

 

4 yards, punt

7 yards, punt

8 yards, punt

12 yards, field goal

13 yards, punt

9 yards, punt

94 yards, big play a 49 yard Watson run, TD

0 yards, end of half

24 yards, punt

7 yards, punt

0 yards, punt

66 yards, field goal

4 yards, punt

 

Actually, not too bad of a game for a rookie QB's first.15 for 24 for 125 yards passing, no TDs, no INTs and a YPA of 5.21. And 67 yards running including a TD.

 

Wins is not a QB stat. It is a team stat. If Watson, a year younger, had had his 2017 college teammates playing with him, this game would have been an absolute laugher. And I like Watson. But it was the defense that was by far the major factor in that win.

Edited by Thurman#1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good teams like Clemson and Alabama have a handful of guys who will enter the NFL in a given season.

 

Even the worst NFL team has 53 guys who are IN the NFL. That ought to end the discussion right there.

 

There is a big difference between a 3rd string NFL RB and a 19 year old kid playing backup RB on a college team.

  • Thanks! (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 5:15 PM, mannc said:

Again, this is not something you can prove simply by stating it over and over.  Clemson, like Alabama, is packed with future NFL players, including probably 10-12 future first round draft picks, more than any NFL team has on its roster.  There is every reason to believe they could compete against a team like Oakland or the Cardinals on a neutral field.  

Competing in the NFL is often more about what you don't have. We could take all 32 draft picks 1st round in any given draft throw in 23 fill-in college role players (Clemson and Alabama have a TON of starters and role players that can't compete and don't belong in the NFL) 

 

Those 23 guys are going to get crushed against an NFL team. Clemson Bama could have an all-pro LT. Cool. Shaq is going to feast on the RT going nowhere. And Hughes is a wash against his tackle at worst. He'll give the guy trouble for sure. They could have a stud RB and 3/5 stud linemen. Those 2 that don't belong are going to be eaten by Phillips every other play. 

 

We see it with Jordan Mills against better rushers in the league. And Mills at least belongs in the NFL. He's still a liability for us. It'd be so easy to game plan for what a college team is weak at. Because every single NFL player on any team would crush that matchup.. a college team couldn't possibly execute plays if they only have a handful of guys that can beat an NFL matchup and too many that can't.

 

If Mills vs Bosa is heading our way, we're devoting a whole offensive game plan around that one matchup. Imagine if we had Mills vs Bosa caliber in 5/11 offensive matchups. That's what a college team is up against. They'd be lucky to get a first down. Their good players are a wash against NFL. Their bad players are losing the game for them no matter what.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Good teams like Clemson and Alabama have a handful of guys who will enter the NFL in a given season.

 

Even the worst NFL team has 53 guys who are IN the NFL. That ought to end the discussion right there.

 

There is a big difference between a 3rd string NFL RB and a 19 year old kid playing backup RB on a college team.

 

 

what are the stakes?

 

it would be a crime to expose college kids to men who have survived two-a-days fighting for a weekly paycheck

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Good teams like Clemson and Alabama have a handful of guys who will enter the NFL in a given season.

 

Even the worst NFL team has 53 guys who are IN the NFL. That ought to end the discussion right there.

 

 

Those programs have way more than “a handful” of guys who will enter the NFL.  Alabama’s entire starting defense from 2016 plays in the NFL, and as of next fall, their entire starting defense from 2017 will, too.  The premise of your post is simply false.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Competing in the NFL is often more about what you don't have. We could take all 32 draft picks 1st round in any given draft throw in 23 fill-in college role players (Clemson and Alabama have a TON of starters and role players that can't compete and don't belong in the NFL) 

 

Those 23 guys are going to get crushed against an NFL team. Clemson Bama could have an all-pro LT. Cool. Shaq is going to feast on the RT going nowhere. And Hughes is a wash against his tackle at worst. He'll give the guy trouble for sure. They could have a stud RB and 3/5 stud linemen. Those 2 that don't belong are going to be eaten by Phillips every other play. 

 

We see it with Jordan Mills against better rushers in the league. And Mills at least belongs in the NFL. He's still a liability for us. It'd be so easy to game plan for what a college team is weak at. Because every single NFL player on any team would crush that matchup.. a college team couldn't possibly execute plays if they only have a handful of guys that can beat an NFL matchup and too many that can't.

 

If Mills vs Bosa is heading our way, we're devoting a whole offensive game plan around that one matchup. Imagine if we had Mills vs Bosa caliber in 5/11 offensive matchups. That's what a college team is up against. They'd be lucky to get a first down. Their good players are a wash against NFL. Their bad players are losing the game for them no matter what.

Again, the bolded is simply wrong.  Pretty much every starter on offense and defense for both those teams will either be drafted or get a legitimate shot at the NFL as an UDFA, like Levi Wallace and Robert Foster did. 

 

Alabama (and now Clemson, apparently) really doesn't have major holes.  Saban doesn't have a limited number of draft picks or a salary cap, like NFL teams do.  He pretty much has his pick of the best players in the country every year at every position. Not one of their starting players would be embarrassed or even out of place in the NFL, and if you think there is huge physical difference between 21-year old scholarship football players who are living, eating and training in the Alabama program and guys a couple years older in the NFL, then you haven't been watching much college football lately.  

 

Edited by mannc
  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, mannc said:

Again, the bolded is simply wrong.  Pretty much every starter on offense and defense for both those teams will either be drafted or get a legitimate shot at the NFL as an UDFA, like Levi Wallace and Robert Foster did. 

 

Alabama (and now Clemson, apparently) really doesn't have major holes.  Saban doesn't have a limited number of draft picks or a salary cap, like NFL teams do.  He pretty much has his pick of the best players in the country every year at every position. Not one of their starting players would be embarrassed or even out of place in the NFL, and if you think there is huge physical difference between 21-year old scholarship football players who are living, eating and training in the Alabama program and guys a couple years older in the NFL, then you haven't watched much college football lately

I don't need to watch college football intensively lol. It's fun but I don't watch much of it because the product is noticeable worse talent wise than any NFL game. That championship game didn't look like an NFL game! It looked like NFL players with ankle weights on early off season all 50-100 pounds underweight. Same reason I have a hard time getting up for Syracuse games watching crappy jump shots.

 

I may be wrong in my exaggeration of how many aren't going to be servicable NFL players. But I seriously doubt their entire starting 22 are going to be career NFL career players. If I spotted you all but the.. C, LG, TE, RE, FS.. literally just 5 players that don't belong. NFL coaches would feast on that. You need DEPTH! Infinitely more important than star power in a 53 man roster.

 

Seriously. Take an old first round draft class and make a team of that. Fill the rest with UDFAs that never latched onto the NFL team and I'll show you a really crappy team. We could have all the available former first rounders you want and we'd be a worse team re-sign Vince Young and Reggie Bush and the rest.. the dream team right? But we don't. Cause we're better off with our guys.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
  • Awesome! (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I don't need to watch college football intensively lol. It's fun but I don't watch much of it because the product is noticeable worse talent wise than any NFL game. That championship game didn't look like an NFL game! It looked like NFL players with ankle weights on early off season all 50-100 pounds underweight. Same reason I have a hard time getting up for Syracuse games watching crappy jump shots.

 

I may be wrong in my exaggeration of how many aren't going to be servicable NFL players. But I seriously doubt their entire starting 22 are going to be career NFL career players. If I spotted you all but the.. C, LG, TE, RE, FS.. literally just 5 players that don't belong. NFL coaches would feast on that. You need DEPTH! 

I have news for you: This year the Bills (and other lousy teams) fielded lots of players who don’t belong in the NFL.  

 

If, as you admit, you don’t watch much college football, what are you doing in this thread?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, mannc said:

I have news for you: This year the Bills (and other lousy teams) fielded lots of players who don’t belong in the NFL.  

 

If, as you admit, you don’t watch much college football, what are you doing in this thread?

Because it doesn't preclude me from saying the best teams in a farm system league that feeds 5% of its top talent into the NFL would face a matchup nightmare.

 

I watch enough college football. And can be objective about how good they are. I'm telling you why I prefer the NFL.

 

This is 2015 Alabama front 7. Give them all the talent you want but this front 7 gets nailed in the NFL. Bad depth

1541726098223643.png

4 years from now you'll see the same picture of this year's Clemson and Alabama teams. Dudes you've never heard of. If Clemson or Alabama went against the best of the rest in college: Defensive Josh Allen, Nick Bosa, Ed Oliver.. they'd get toasted. Take like.. the big 10 and big 12 all star team and they'd wreck those 2 teams. Guess what.. those guys are getting in the NFL too.

 

I watch big 12 football, mostly just Texas games. And the all Big12 team would wreck Clemson and Bama.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Because it doesn't preclude me from saying the best teams in a farm system league that feeds 5% of its top talent into the NFL would face a matchup nightmare.

 

I watch enough college football. And can be objective about how good they are. I'm telling you why I prefer the NFL.

 

Again the 5% might be true as an average across the system. Alabama isn't even close to 5%. It is closer to 75% of its talent going to the NFL. If you are good enough to start for Nick Saban's Alabama Crimson Tide the chances are you will play in the National Football League. Clemson still isn't quite where 'Bama is as a programme despite the NC game but they are pretty close and closing in each year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again the 5% might be true as an average across the system. Alabama isn't even close to 5%. It is closer to 75% of its talent going to the NFL. If you are good enough to start for Nick Saban's Alabama Crimson Tide the chances are you will play in the National Football League. Clemson still isn't quite where 'Bama is as a programme despite the NC game but they are pretty close and closing in each year. 

Cmon that's not the point. If 75% of Bama is NFL talent (it never is 4 years later) then Bama has .05%.. or whatever feeding into the NFL. They're facing.. the other guys not on Bama lol. They're playing teams with 100% NFL talent: NFL teams.

 

Doesn't even matter. If I generously gave you 75% NFL caliber the 25% is going to lose the game! It's what you don't have! Starpower doesn't mean squat if you have 25% matchup nightmares. Underdog NFL teams prep for maybe 2 to game plan. Try 5. They're dead.

 

Imagine.. Tre White on Andre Holmes, Bosa on Mills, Kuechly man on Kieth Ford, Donald on Bodine.. THAT TEAM LOSES. And the talent disparity is absolutely magnified when you take an average NFL player like Mills against some nobody edge setter. I'd run Ivory on that side every play lol.

 

Honestly I think you guys are trolling haha.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 2:19 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Let me correct you on one point because it does matter in the context of what you are saying I argued. While the thread was about whether the Bills would cover the spread I repeatedly said that it wasn't about the Bills from my perspective. Nor was it really about whether the NFL team covered the spread although I, like Kirby, felt that the point spreads for the bottom feeder teams in the NFL were interesting. I also conceded on point 4 when we discussed.

 

The reason I entered that thread was to dispute the argument that Alabama is undertalented to compare to a bottom end NFL team because that argument was being made "there are guys on that team who won't be pros". I don't think they are (at least at the starter level) and still believe that. They ARE different in that regard. Their whole starting 2016 defense is playing in the NFL 7 starters, 3 backups and 1 special teamer. After this year's draft their whole 2017 starting defense will be as well. These are indisputable facts.  There are no grocery baggers starting on those defenses. Their might be one or two on the offense but not on the defense. 

 

Last night they got lit up by a true freshman Quarterback who was phenomenal. The 2016 defense got lit up by Deshaun Watson too. Sometimes great defensive teams get beaten by great Quarterbacks. That happenes in the pros the same as in college. As for how would Trevor Lawrence fare in the NFL.... we will have to wait a couple more years to see - but if he was able to and declared for the 2019 NFL Draft he would be a top 10 pick and the first Quarterback off the board. 

 

So do I downgrade my view on the Alabama defense after last night? No, not really. I think they are still super talented and like their 2016 and 2017 predecessors they will all play in the NFL. Their offensive line and running backs probably will too and the QB will also get drafted. Wide receiver and tight end they are thinner and I never argued otherwise. 

 

What I do think is that people can no longer sleep on the job Dabo has done with Clemson. That programme is now ready to challenge Alabma as the dominant force in college football. 

 

The central point I made 2 months ago stands - This Alabama team and even this Clemson team are different. There are very few grocery baggers. These programmes are absolutely stacked with NFL talent. 

 

I put the over/under on the number of the 44 starters from last night playing in the NFL (and I mean making teams and playing snaps not getting drafted in the 7th and being on practice squads) at 35. Where do you put it? 

This is pretty much where I am. As someone that pays close attention to recruiting we often miss the boat. As an example the backup LT at Clemson was the number 2 OT recruited last year and a top 20 overall player. He may not be playing yet but he’s 8,000,999 times better than the guy starting at a good program like a Northwestern. The talent isn’t spread out anymore. There are a few national recruiting bases that are ONLY bringing in NFL players. 

 

I believed that an elite college team could cover 28.5 against a bad NFL team. I find it ironic that the Bills improved dramatically when they inserted two, undrafted rookies into their starting lineup. Those guys were JAGs at Alabama. I don’t know why people can’t see that they are largely the same guys that they were a year ago. This massive talent gap that people believe exists doesn’t. Before someone talks about the lines, Alabama’s OL is actually bigger than the Bills. The biggest advantage is the mental side. The NFL teams could confuse and disguise against the young QBs. It’s not the weird physical mismatch that some imagine. Look no further than Wallace and Foster. Clemson is in a similar place and was a DOMINANT team once they handed Lawrence the keys.

5 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Good teams like Clemson and Alabama have a handful of guys who will enter the NFL in a given season.

 

Even the worst NFL team has 53 guys who are IN the NFL. That ought to end the discussion right there.

 

There is a big difference between a 3rd string NFL RB and a 19 year old kid playing backup RB on a college team.

This is where the discrepancy is. There are roughly 50 guys from those rosters last week that will be in the NFL and 10+ that will be first round picks. This isn’t a handful situation. This was Northwestern and Pitt.

Edited by Kirby Jackson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again the 5% might be true as an average across the system. Alabama isn't even close to 5%. It is closer to 75% of its talent going to the NFL. If you are good enough to start for Nick Saban's Alabama Crimson Tide the chances are you will play in the National Football League. Clemson still isn't quite where 'Bama is as a programme despite the NC game but they are pretty close and closing in each year. 

 

I'm assuming the 75% number is across a few draft years, we're not getting 75% every year, right?

 

If so, do you think at a given point in time that the 75% that will eventually become NFL players are physically (maybe mentally too) mature enough to compete at an NFL level and beat the worst team in the league?

 

To me, that's the crux of the debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm assuming the 75% number is across a few draft years, we're not getting 75% every year, right?

 

If so, do you think at a given point in time that the 75% that will eventually become NFL players are physically (maybe mentally too) mature enough to compete at an NFL level and beat the worst team in the league?

 

To me, that's the crux of the debate.

There's 25% at best that won't! Against a team with 0% of guys that don't cut it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm assuming the 75% number is across a few draft years, we're not getting 75% every year, right?

 

If so, do you think at a given point in time that the 75% that will eventually become NFL players are physically (maybe mentally too) mature enough to compete at an NFL level and beat the worst team in the league?

 

To me, that's the crux of the debate.

 

Yes it is across multiple draft years. It took 2 drafts to get the whole 2016 starting defense into the league (2016 and 2017) and will have taken two to get the whole 2017 starting D into the league (2017 and 2018). Id have to go back and check the number of cross over guys but let's say it is about half and that is 16 or 17 defensive starters drafted in three drafts (and all but two at most in the first 4 rounds - this is not a batch of day 3 guys). 

 

So the argument was not beat a college team it was beat the spread. Personally I think you have hit on the point where I concede that I have doubts and that is mental maturity. There I honestly don't know. But we are talking about two elite college teams who talent wise and preparation wise could absolutely compete with bottom feeder NFL teams. Whether they would be mentally mature in key situations is a much bigger question. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes it is across multiple draft years. It took 2 drafts to get the whole 2016 starting defense into the league (2016 and 2017) and will have taken two to get the whole 2017 starting D into the league (2017 and 2018). Id have to go back and check the number of cross over guys but let's say it is about half and that is 16 or 17 defensive starters drafted in three drafts (and all but two at most in the first 4 rounds - this is not a batch of day 3 guys). 

 

So the argument was not beat a college team it was beat the spread. Personally I think you have hit on the point where I concede that I have doubts and that is mental maturity. There I honestly don't know. But we are talking about two elite college teams who talent wise and preparation wise could absolutely compete with bottom feeder NFL teams. Whether they would be mentally mature in key situations is a much bigger question. 

 

Not sure when beating the spread entered the conversation, I was going by the thread title. If the conversation is beat the spread I'll tap out. Maybe I missed the boat on where the debate went. Otherwise...

 

My guess is you're underestimating the physical maturity. I think an NFL team would mercilessly attack the physical shortcomings of a college team. 25% of that team is how old? And 25% never make the NFL. IMO the physical mismatches would be overwhelming for the college team. Even worse when the backups come in.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People just need to think of it this way: take the entire group of rookies from a draft and build a team from them. That team would be twice as good as any Alabama team because it includes the best players from all over the country, all seniors and juniors too.

 

This hypothetical rookie team would get destroyed by any NFL team. Alabama would get completely destroyed by an NFL team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, MJS said:

People just need to think of it this way: take the entire group of rookies from a draft and build a team from them. That team would be twice as good as any Alabama team because it includes the best players from all over the country, all seniors and juniors too.

 

This hypothetical rookie team would get destroyed by any NFL team. Alabama would get completely destroyed by an NFL team.

There isn’t a single scap of evidence to support any of these three assertions.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Defense isn't important in modern day football 🏈?  Does it end that too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly...college football is cool. It’s fun. There are cheerleaders and the atmosphere is great. I like it. But it’s not professional level, and it isn’t close. Even a team like Alabama (and now apparently Clemson) looks SIGNIFICANTLY slower, weaker, and smaller than your worst professional team...which is to be expected. 

 

The idea that they could cover a spread of anything less than, say, seven touchdowns is something I’m surprised actual NFL fans would even consider. Neither of those teams would be able to do anything against the Cardinals, let alone the Bills. My prediction would be multiple injuries to the college team, a final score of around 50-0, and the college offense gaining less than 100 yards total.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No college team ever could beat any modern pro team imo. The size / strength / experience difference is just far too great. If any team kept it with 30 would be a surprise. Most games being about 45-0. If you matched up today's powerhouses vs teams from the early 70s and earlier, there could be some close games, when the players sizes and strength would be more evenly matched up. But modern high tempo offenses could really wreak havoc on old school style defenses. But if you went back to the days when wishbone ruled the nfl, that might be hard to prepare for, like a game against a grown ass man Georgia tech squad. It would actually be really interesting to watch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Not sure when beating the spread entered the conversation, I was going by the thread title. If the conversation is beat the spread I'll tap out. Maybe I missed the boat on where the debate went. Otherwise...

 

My guess is you're underestimating the physical maturity. I think an NFL team would mercilessly attack the physical shortcomings of a college team. 25% of that team is how old? And 25% never make the NFL. IMO the physical mismatches would be overwhelming for the college team. Even worse when the backups come in.

 

 

So the thread that the OP so wildly objected to earlier in the season was would Alabama beat the spread of 28.5 points against the Bills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×