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Build a dominant O-Line!


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6 hours ago, peterpan said:

Everything I said above is well know and was widely reported at the time.  

 

There was also speculation that the bills would be fined a first round pick for tampering, but nothing ever happened with that.

If by speculation you mean on this board, then maybe.  By experts/insiders, then no.

 

If you think I am wrong link please.

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On 1/5/2019 at 6:44 PM, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Use the FA money to build a line of experienced professionals and keep josh safe. Not a bunch of rookies that are learning the pro game. Get just a pack of veteran maulers that have been coached up at the pro level and can come in and fix the run game on day 1. Use the draft for the skill positions. Fa WR/RB class is weak and the college Olineman are not developed. Fix the Oline in March and add the pass catchers and rbs in April.

Yes go find your Langston Walker, mike gandy, tuten Reyes, Melvin Fowler, Derrick dockery, trey Teague, and other experienced professionals and build a dominant oline. 

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Didn't read the entire thread, but the idea is on-point. Build your online, and the QB, the Running backs, and even the deficient WRs all get better. As a matter of fact, signing free agent skill players is a waste of $$ if you don't have a solid O-line. 

 

The offensive line is where FA and draft capital needs to be focused!

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1 hour ago, Tazor Face said:

Yes go find your Langston Walker, mike gandy, tuten Reyes, Melvin Fowler, Derrick dockery, trey Teague, and other experienced professionals and build a dominant oline. 

 

You're correct that it's extremely important to identify good investments, and not part-time players like Walker/Gandy/Reyes/Fowler/Teague.

 

And again, signing 2 starters in FA does not mean that the team shouldn't be drafting OLmen; it means that it's more prudent to address need in FA and allow the draft to come to them.  They have 10 picks, which is more than enough ammo to stock the roster with OL prospects in rounds 3-5, where you routinely find solid starters (especially on the interior).

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12 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Great points. I do think that the reason we have been so reluctant to choose lineman in the first round is becuase we were always picking in the top ten and the value simply wasnt there. 

 

Its more compicated than that. You have to look at each draft individually. In order to draft Eric Moulds they passed on Jermaine Mayberry. In order to draft Antoine Winfield they passed on Aaron Gibson. When they did take a tackle in Mike Williams they took the wrong one. Probably should have drafted Ed Reed that year. Should they have drafted Kwame Harris over Willis McGahee? Probably could have taken Joe Staley instead of Marshawn Lynch, though Staley was considered a big reach that year. They certainly should have taken Ryan Clady or Brendan Albert over Leodis. Hindsight they definitely should have taken Tyron Smith over Dareus and they would have been the laughing stock of the league. EJ Manuel's year they passed on some damn good lineman. Unfortunately they forced themselves into a corner and taking a quarterback. 

 

My point is is that it is kind of up and down. There isn't some kind of organizational philosophy against drafting lineman. Most of the time they made the right call, if you really look back at the drafts since 96. For the most part, the guys they passed on are not good. I think they really drafted BPA for the most part. 

While BPA does make some sense I'm more inclined to believe that the late owner had some significant say on who the team drafted each year he was team president. Which was before he hired Tom Donahoe and allowed him to be the president and then reclaimed that position once he fired Donahoe. Before 2001 and after 2005. 

 

Probably kind of why the team drafted RBs, CBs so often. Then looking at all the defensive players taken in the draft since 2000 you would tend to think that the defense must have been great for many years. This simply didn't happen as each new regime change sought to draft defensive players that fit their scheme. Clearly looking over the last nearly 20 years drafting BPA didn't work.

 

Now fast forward to this past draft and the Bills targeted particular positions and drafted for those. Quarterback was their first priority with LBer, DT right behind and no question this was a huge success. I only hope that Beane targets an offensive center in the first round as that position is just about as important as LT as that player calls line protections. I could also see a skill player taken here at WR if there is a Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins there. 

 

 

Shifting gears a bit here, what bothers me is when this franchise built a top offensive line that usually resulted in great success. The 60's AFL teams with two AFL Championships had great linemen with all five being pro bowlers and the center Billy Shaw as first team all pro.

Those 90's super bowl teams saw some really good players on the lines. First team all pro Kent Hull at center, LT Will Wolford, LG Jim Ritcher among others. Ritcher who played in the NFL for 15 years was an OG first round pick of Chuck Knox in 1980 and the Bills already had a decent starter at center in Will Grant. Funny thing that Ritcher didn't start on the line for a few years. 

 

As good as those 90 offensive lines were I can recall at the end of the 1991 season the Bills line was so beaten up during the AFC championship game with Denver (they won 10-7) that TE Pete Metzelaars was forced to play OT because they had no one else heathy. 

 

Like I said, this years free agent linemen aren't that great as nobody is a 5 star and the top players available will probably be resigned by their teams. Not to mention that so many teams need quality line players. 

 

Some team is going to want to draft a QB in the top ten like buffalo did this year and that #9 spot could lead to a bunch more draft picks. 

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3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

While BPA does make some sense I'm more inclined to believe that the late owner had some significant say on who the team drafted each year he was team president. Which was before he hired Tom Donahoe and allowed him to be the president and then reclaimed that position once he fired Donahoe. Before 2001 and after 2005. 

 

Probably kind of why the team drafted RBs, CBs so often. Then looking at all the defensive players taken in the draft since 2000 you would tend to think that the defense must have been great for many years. This simply didn't happen as each new regime change sought to draft defensive players that fit their scheme. Clearly looking over the last nearly 20 years drafting BPA didn't work.

 

Now fast forward to this past draft and the Bills targeted particular positions and drafted for those. Quarterback was their first priority with LBer, DT right behind and no question this was a huge success. I only hope that Beane targets an offensive center in the first round as that position is just about as important as LT as that player calls line protections. I could also see a skill player taken here at WR if there is a Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins there. 

 

 

I think the problem with targeting certain positions is that you are drafting for need. Was Josh Allen the BPA when we traded up? Probably not, but teh rules for drafting quarterbacks are different. Tremaine was targeted as a position of need, but was the BPA at the time. It really was a case in which need and BPA matched up. Although they left some pretty good players on the table when they drafted Phillips.  

 

I see what you are saying and I do think they will target centers, guards, receivers and tight ends, but those players simply will not be near BPA in the first round this year. Not even close. And that's the issue. If you trade down, fine, but you can't reach on players of need because it is detrimental to your programs as a whole. Again, if you look at their drafts, it hasn't been terrible, but all of the regime changes and a cheap owner kept the organization from keeping their own. 

 

There are no 5 start linemen in free agency and there are no 5 star linemen in the draft. I am willing to overpay for an average player in free agency, but not willing to pass on elite talent in the draft in order to draft for need.  

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I have written this before and will do again: the OLine will only improve if Beane focuses on it AND according to who's available. Good OLinemen are in demand and most signed. There are not stocked somewhere just ready to be signed. And those available will be courted by a dozen teams.

 

The Chiefs have kept on winning without a hitch when Laurent Duvernay-Tardif (RG) went down with a broken leg. I don't think he's been back to playing yet though he should be recovered now. As he's paid 8M a year they could want to trade him if the offer is right and the Bills happen to have cap space.

 

Who else out there could be available?

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On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 7:31 AM, Bill from NYC said:

I have been posting this for 20 years. As much as we need blocking, don't count on it. A first round corner would absolutely not shock me. In fact if my life depended on making the right guess, I would expect  to say hello to the corner from LSU at #9.

 

McClapper passed on Mahomes  and Watson to draft a corner. Why wouldn't he pass on a blocker?

So McDermott was the GM? Interesting.

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10 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

I have written this before and will do again: the OLine will only improve if Beane focuses on it AND according to who's available. Good OLinemen are in demand and most signed. There are not stocked somewhere just ready to be signed. And those available will be courted by a dozen teams.

 

The Chiefs have kept on winning without a hitch when Laurent Duvernay-Tardif (RG) went down with a broken leg. I don't think he's been back to playing yet though he should be recovered now. As he's paid 8M a year they could want to trade him if the offer is right and the Bills happen to have cap space.

 

Who else out there could be available?

 

Im not sure they Wil move Tardif, simply becuase they will have to eat too much cap. They have about 40 million so they are in a pretty good spot. But Tradif is owed a good chunk of change moving forward, so it is possible if they want to get out of that contract already. 

 

I think thye are are more likely to let Mitch Morse walk and try to fill his position with some of the extra guys who have been playing for them this year. 

 

I'm curious if Jacksonville would be willing to move Brandon Linder, as they are seriously strapped for cash and he could fetch an actual return. Jeremy Parnell is definetly going to get cut. But Parnell is 32. There will be other cap casualties, but it's too early to tell at this point. 

 

In terms of trades I think two guards will be available. One is Forrest Lamp of the Chargers. He's a former second round pick who got hurt and is blocked who isn't getting a shot there. The other is guard Alex Lewis who I do think Baltimore will be willing to move becuase they aren't likely to re-sign him.  

 

 

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22 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

You're correct that it's extremely important to identify good investments, and not part-time players like Walker/Gandy/Reyes/Fowler/Teague.

 

And again, signing 2 starters in FA does not mean that the team shouldn't be drafting OLmen; it means that it's more prudent to address need in FA and allow the draft to come to them.  They have 10 picks, which is more than enough ammo to stock the roster with OL prospects in rounds 3-5, where you routinely find solid starters (especially on the interior).

 

Agee! Build an o-line through both FA and draft. That has to be the priority, especially before skill players.

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4 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Im not sure they Wil move Tardif, simply becuase they will have to eat too much cap. They have about 40 million so they are in a pretty good spot. But Tradif is owed a good chunk of change moving forward, so it is possible if they want to get out of that contract already. 

 

I think thye are are more likely to let Mitch Morse walk and try to fill his position with some of the extra guys who have been playing for them this year. 

 

I'm curious if Jacksonville would be willing to move Brandon Linder, as they are seriously strapped for cash and he could fetch an actual return. Jeremy Parnell is definetly going to get cut. But Parnell is 32. There will be other cap casualties, but it's too early to tell at this point. 

 

In terms of trades I think two guards will be available. One is Forrest Lamp of the Chargers. He's a former second round pick who got hurt and is blocked who isn't getting a shot there. The other is guard Alex Lewis who I do think Baltimore will be willing to move becuase they aren't likely to re-sign him.  

 

 

 

I like some of your suggestions, here are my thoughts:

 

- The time to deal for a Chiefs' guard was last pre-season, when they were shopping Parker Ehinger.  Moving LDT saves them no money in 2019, but you're right that their cap crunch probably means that they don't re-sign Morse, who could be the only FA center to hit the market that's worth pursuing.

- Marrone loves Linder; I don't think he goes anywhere.

- LAC are more likely to move on from Schoefield than Lamp IMO.  Lamp saves them less than a half-million against he cap, while Schoefield's release would save $2.5M in 2019.

- Lewis would be a good option if they're willing to move on.  The guy I'd really like to pilfer from Baltimore is Marshal Yanda, who has a $10M cap number. It's probably unlikely given that he's still one of the 5 best guards in football, but he'll be 35 at the start of the 2019 season, and they could slide James Hurst right into his place at RG, so it's possible they'd deal him

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On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:40 PM, peterpan said:

Everything I said above is well know and was widely reported at the time.  

 

There was also speculation that the bills would be fined a first round pick for tampering, but nothing ever happened with that.

Where did you get that information that there was speculation that the Bills were going to lose a first round pick for tampering? Beane wasn't with the Bills when the draft took place. So he wasn't involved with our draft process. McDermott was already hired and empowered at the expense of Whaley. That was not a secret---it was public knowledge. Did McDermott have knowledge of the Panther scouting reports and draft rankings? Probably so because he was with that franchise when their draft evaluations were being formulated. There is nothing nefarious about that because so were the other members of their staff. Did you expect the new clapping HC to erase from his head the knowledge that he previously accrued? 

 

When McDermott was hired it was with the understanding that he was taking over the operation and making the decisions. Whaley knew before the draft that he lost his authority as a GM. And the scouts who are on a year to year contract knew that their contracts were not going to be renewed. That's how that segment of the business is run. 

 

No conspiracy and no nefarious business dealings occurred during that transition. It was one administration taking over for another. The replacing entity wanted to clean house and install their own staff. That's how it works in the NFL and that's what happened here. 

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21 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I think the problem with targeting certain positions is that you are drafting for need. Was Josh Allen the BPA when we traded up? Probably not, but teh rules for drafting quarterbacks are different. Tremaine was targeted as a position of need, but was the BPA at the time. It really was a case in which need and BPA matched up. Although they left some pretty good players on the table when they drafted Phillips.  

 

I see what you are saying and I do think they will target centers, guards, receivers and tight ends, but those players simply will not be near BPA in the first round this year. Not even close. And that's the issue. If you trade down, fine, but you can't reach on players of need because it is detrimental to your programs as a whole. Again, if you look at their drafts, it hasn't been terrible, but all of the regime changes and a cheap owner kept the organization from keeping their own. 

 

There are no 5 start linemen in free agency and there are no 5 star linemen in the draft. I am willing to overpay for an average player in free agency, but not willing to pass on elite talent in the draft in order to draft for need.  

As per the bolded. We don't know that yet as we haven't seen the senior bowl, the combine or the pro days and final grades won't be until April sometime. I take the opposite stance as you do because I don't want some old, tried linemen nearly ready to retire and who knows when they will hit that proverbial wall like we all saw with a few free agent linemen the team brought in the past. 

 

Looking at how Beane managed to find some great undrafted free agent talent like Levi Wallace, Robert Foster among others and later round draft picks like Wyatt Teller  I'd rather see the team build the line through the draft and free agent walkons over those over priced O linemen. 

 

There will be other areas where the team can overspend on high priced free agents like Jadeveon Clowney, Antonio Brown as the team needs a star # 1 WR, pass rusher and others. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/7/2019 at 3:11 PM, Nihilarian said:

High priced free agents that managed to piss off the all pro LT Jason Peters in Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker! Then let's not forget a former 14th overall first round pick brought in by Whaley in OG Chris Williams On March 12, 2014, Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money. The guy lasted an entire 3 games before an injury, and the next year he was cut. 

 

Forgive me, but I don't want to see this team over pay for offensive line players and end up getting the wrong end of the deal like they have in the past. With so many teams needing O line players and so few quality free agents I'd rather see the Bills go big in the draft and not overpay! No real five star linemen this year from what I see. 

 

First thing, if this team is going to overpay for anything ...it's for a top quality line coach who can help choose the players in the draft and undrafted free agents. Next, we all saw what having a pro bowl OG can do in helping the players around him become better players.

 

No reason not to do what the Colts did in the 2018 draft in going OG with the first pick and another OG with their second, second round pick and both offensive guards are starting this year. With two rookie offensive guards the Colts are currently fielding a top five O line and nobody sacks Andrew Luck as the Colts allowed the fewest sacks with only giving up 18 sacks all season.

 

Look at the list of teams with the lowest amount of sacks and 9 of 11 are in the playoffs. A distinct correlation in my view and the majority are pocket QBs. 

 

Colts, 18

Saints, 20

Patriots, 21 

Steelers, 24

Chiefs, 26

Ravens, 32

Panthers, 32

Bears, 33

Rams, 33

Broncos, 34

Chargers, 34

True but draft picks can bust just as easily if an over payed FA.  Probably much less often actually and we have more cap space relative to draft picks.  OL is the center of everything, a solid line improves the WR's, RBS, and most importantly QB.  Id rather overspend on an established lineman thank risk it in the draft. That being said draft all the OL you can anyways 

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On 1/8/2019 at 7:34 PM, Shaw66 said:

One quality free agent and one high draft pick should net two starters.   That should  enough, with some growth from last season's starters.   A third new face starting would be nice, but I think two is enough.  And integrating two is possible; three new guys is like starting over, which is okay if you have to.  

 

I'd guess that among Dawkins, Bodine, Miller, Mills and Teller there are three 2019 starters.  

 

: O   Maybe 2 ?? 

 

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1 hour ago, BillsMafia13 said:

True but draft picks can bust just as easily if an over payed FA.  Probably much less often actually and we have more cap space relative to draft picks.  OL is the center of everything, a solid line improves the WR's, RBS, and most importantly QB.  Id rather overspend on an established lineman thank risk it in the draft. That being said draft all the OL you can anyways 

Solder is the counter-example. Seriously, from the outside, signing a proven star LT and then selecting a freak RB at #2 overall in the draft, while having Eli, Beckham,etc. it sure sounded a great plan to build a top level offense. Talk about backfiring! Well, that RB is for real, but the rest didn't work. You can't fault the intent or plan though. Goes to show how hard it can be to build a great team!

 

Still I too think simply 2 significant improvement at the OLine, with Josh in his 2nd year, Daboll having figured up his roster, all that can lead to instant significant improvements, even it doesn't fix most issues.

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 5:42 PM, Returntoglory said:

Watching the Colts game right now once again they put the graphic up of the offensive ranking from last year of the Colts and then with the addition of their first round pick and additional upgrades, Luck's O-Line is night and day and they are dominant!  This has to be the focus of the draft and free agency. 

 

 

drop down 3 spots in the draft, pick up an extra three 2nd round picks and then select the best LG in the league.....yep, sign me up

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38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I would go after Ja' Wuan James and Darryl Williams at RT. Paradis and Morse at Center. If we can fill those two positions in free agency, it gives us much more flexibility entering the draft.

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