Stephon Gilmore - first team AP All-Pro

[Reader]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are correct........they certainly could have paid Gilmore.    

 

And yes I've also been critical of McBeane for tearing it down.    It wasn't necessary.   Hopefully it works out but the team they inherited wasn't really tear down material.   I thought then and still think they took the easy way out.  Lot's of built-in excuses when tearing it down and the easy part is getting back to mediocrity(which is where they are now).   Hopefully it works out. 

 

Would you have kept Watkins, Darby, Dareus, Gilmore, etc...? I agree that someone like Gilmore could have been kept, though someone liked Dareus seemed like he was not worth keeping. Maybe process guys won't be enough to keep Beane and McD around for a while, however process guys are probably the best bet to try to build around psychologically.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Reader said:

 

Would you have kept Watkins, Darby, Dareus, Gilmore, etc...? I agree that someone like Gilmore could have been kept, though someone liked Dareus seemed like he was not worth keeping. Maybe process guys won't be enough to keep Beane and McD around for a while, however process guys are probably the best bet to try to build around psychologically.

 

Yes.   Would have picked up Watkins option and used the tag threat to get a deal done with Gilmore.   I was all in-on drafting Mahomes and he fell in their lap as well.  Dumping Dareus was dumb........he was playing well in McD's system and the run defense fell to pieces without him.   They basically paid Dareus and Lotulelei this season and Lotulelei was not as good as Dareus had been or nearly as productive as Dareus was in Jacksonville.   Watkins would have had a monster year with Tyrod in 2017 IMO.    He was a big part of LA Rams having best offense in NFL.......Darby was a key part of an Eagles SB win.......Dareus helped transform the Jax run D and get them to the AFC championship game.........and Gilmore was a star player for a NE team that reached the SB.    These guys weren't/aren't turds.    They are talented.

[BringBackOrton]

32 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are correct........they certainly could have paid Gilmore.    

 

And yes I've also been critical of McBeane for tearing it down.    It wasn't necessary.   Hopefully it works out but the team they inherited wasn't really tear down material.   I thought then and still think they took the easy way out.  Lot's of built-in excuses when tearing it down and the easy part is getting back to mediocrity(which is where they are now).   Hopefully it works out. 

If you took the end of the year 2016 roster and compared it position by position to this one, sans QB, it’s at the worst equal.

[BADOLBILZ]

23 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

If you took the end of the year 2016 roster and compared it position by position to this one, sans QB, it’s at the worst equal.

 

 

The entire offense is worse now.........except perhaps Jordan Mills is slightly better than he was then.

 

We are all projecting much better production/efficiency/stats in the future from the young players we have now but I mean c'mon.......thru 15 games that offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring had two runners averaging over 5.4 ypc and had just put up a franchise record for offensive yardage against Miami that week.    They lead the NFL in big plays in both 2015 and 2016.  And had the fewest turnovers thru 15 games by any team in the SB era!   ALL of those players were better then than their counterparts now.   ALL of them.

 

The defense was loaded with talent everywhere except safety.     Let's not forget how good Zach Brown or Lorax were that year too.    

 

That team was just POORLY coached/schemed on defense.    Awful.

 

Nobody at that time was saying the roster needed to be torn down.......it wasn't even a consideration.........but fans just so want to believe and have hope in new regimes that a lot of folks will just buy anything.

Edited January 5, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Whaley sucks.  Too bad Gilmore didn’t smile on draft day!!!

Whaley didn't draft Gilmore, but you are correct.  Whaley sucked as a GM.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

@Rico .... another Whaley gem?

Nope.  Nix.

[Rico]

28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Whaley didn't draft Gilmore, but you are correct.  Whaley sucked as a GM.

As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[4merper4mer]

17 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

The badmouthing of Gilmore when he was on the Bills was insane. He’s always been a very good and often great corner. Yes, he got too many penalties but many of them were unwarranted. 

Once in Foxboro it seemed he stopped getting penalties.

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, Capco said:

 

Are you suggesting that the refs don't miss calls?

 

Obviously I'm not suggesting that.

 

 

That's not what you are arguing or what we are talking about here.  You stated as fact that they miss these calls far more often with NE than other teams---leading to what appears to be better play by Gilmore.  I'm asking you to give the evidence for "missed calls" that backs up this claim.

[Punching Bag]

18 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So Belichick might know more than disgruntled Bills fans? ?

 

Does he know more than you? Yes. But you do not have an Honorary Doctorate in Cheating, Lying and Dirty Tricks, do you?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, napmaster said:

Can't pay Gillmore when you give Dareus $100M.  I sure miss Whaley.

 

The reason Gilmore and Darby were let walk is that they probably didn't fit well with McDermott's scheme.

 

That's the problem when one changes coaches every 2 years.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The entire offense is worse now.........except perhaps Jordan Mills is slightly better than he was then.

 

We are all projecting much better production/efficiency/stats in the future from the young players we have now but I mean c'mon.......thru 15 games that offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring had two runners averaging over 5.4 ypc and had just put up a franchise record for offensive yardage against Miami that week.    They lead the NFL in big plays in both 2015 and 2016.  And had the fewest turnovers thru 15 games by any team in the SB era!   ALL of those players were better then than their counterparts now.   ALL of them.

 

The defense was loaded with talent everywhere except safety.     Let's not forget how good Zach Brown or Lorax were that year too.    

 

That team was just POORLY coached/schemed on defense.    Awful.

 

Nobody at that time was saying the roster needed to be torn down.......it wasn't even a consideration.........but fans just so want to believe and have hope in new regimes that a lot of folks will just buy anything.

 

It's not a popular viewpoint but there's truth here.

 

There's no question the roster has been torn down.  People assert it had to be, for cap reasons, but if one looks carefully a great deal of the cap problem was created by the roster teardown, not the other way around - and this regime's talent e v a l is still an open question especially on offense.

 

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't understand the selective memory that enables fans to be completely uncritical of Beane and McDermott so far.  There is reason to hope but also plenty of reason to go "hmmmm"

 

[CommonCents]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not a popular viewpoint but there's truth here.

 

There's no question the roster has been torn down.  People assert it had to be, for cap reasons, but if one looks carefully a great deal of the cap problem was created by the roster teardown, not the other way around - and this regime's talent e v a l is still an open question especially on offense.

 

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't understand the selective memory that enables fans to be completely uncritical of Beane and McDermott so far.  There is reason to hope but also plenty of reason to go "hmmmm"

 

We are all Bills fans, I’m sure everyone has some level of skepticism. It’s hard to have a decent conversation when Sammy Watkins and Dareus are talked about as being missed. Neither guy is a foundational piece, both are being paid as such. Watkins can’t stay healthy. Dareus was being paid as an impact interior dline player, he has two sacks since leaving Buffalo and 8 sacks in the last 5 seasons. 

 

The acquisition of Star brought out plenty of doubters. It was a signing that for some reason seemed inevitable, just driving slow motion into oncoming traffic. All his numbers and declining rankings were posted here but the same posters that defend the signing now simply use the he is taking up space argument. Taking up space on the salary cap I suppose. Saying Dareus would have been better against the run may not even be true but if it is it STILL doesn’t justify his contract.

 

You don’t pay a space eating non impact DT 100 million dollars, you don’t pay a WR with bad feet. Is Watkins better than what the Bills have, if healthy? There is no less than 100 WRs I’d rather see out there than Zay Jones. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by CommonCents

[BringBackOrton]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The entire offense is worse now.........except perhaps Jordan Mills is slightly better than he was then.

 

We are all projecting much better production/efficiency/stats in the future from the young players we have now but I mean c'mon.......thru 15 games that offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring had two runners averaging over 5.4 ypc and had just put up a franchise record for offensive yardage against Miami that week.    They lead the NFL in big plays in both 2015 and 2016.  And had the fewest turnovers thru 15 games by any team in the SB era!   ALL of those players were better then than their counterparts now.   ALL of them.

 

The defense was loaded with talent everywhere except safety.     Let's not forget how good Zach Brown or Lorax were that year too.    

 

That team was just POORLY coached/schemed on defense.    Awful.

 

Nobody at that time was saying the roster needed to be torn down.......it wasn't even a consideration.........but fans just so want to believe and have hope in new regimes that a lot of folks will just buy anything.

Well that's an interesting point.  I think there's no denying that McD/Beane had a few players on a list who had a short leash.  After the year ZB had, Pro Bowl-caliber, they barely wanted him at the vet min.  Now, I have to believe that was mostly because of his business decisions at the tail end of 16.  Likewise to Dareus, and Watkins, they were short leash players.

 

It wasn't the talent that made McD want to blow them up.  It was the character.  

[dave mcbride]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's much maligned because he didn't do his most important job..........which was to draft and develop a QB.

 

Nix failure to do so is the reason for the most recent tear down.

 

Like him or not Whaley was like the ball in the pinball machine........lead into harms way by the outgoing Nix and left to draft the best available QB in a wing-and-prayer class of QB's........and then batted around between 3 head coaches orders and a new owner's ignorance(Dareus' contract was on Terry Pegula).

 

What Buddy didn't understand is that in the modern NFL you get the QB first.........they can play 15-18 years..........and then you build around them.

 

Since then teams like the Seahawks have made this into a league-wide model for how to handle your business.

 

 

Apropis of your point above about qbs, I thought you might be interested in this piece:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/a-cheap-qb-is-a-quick-route-to-nfl-playoffs-but-sustained-success-costs-big-money/2019/01/03/c014f9ba-0f9a-11e9-84fc-d58c33d6c8c7_story.html?utm_term=.dad9be59b542

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't understand the selective memory that enables fans to be completely uncritical of Beane and McDermott so far.  There is reason to hope but also plenty of reason to go "hmmmm"
 

 

The reason is simple and it’s what Badol said - fans (humans generally?) want so badly to be able to maintain optimism that they suspend disbelief and ignore evidence that undercuts that optimism.  “There must be a plan” - a “process” - a “Divine Intent” - something that explains the unexplainable and ascribes a positive, moral order to chaos and negativity.

[BADOLBILZ]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

He was always a very good corner. He had a rough stretch of 5 games his final year some of which was on him but a lot of which was on breakdowns in Rex's laughable scheme. He wad bordering top 10 when he was here, he had a slow first month in New England and has been all but elite ever since. 

 

Bills fans never warmed to him. I have always believed it was the draft day thing. But he was one of the best players on the team throughout his time here. 

 

Gilmore ran hot and cold his first few seasons.

 

1) He always had a tendency to have his issues early in the season.........then finish the second half of the season great........which lead to disappointment/dismay when he started slower again the next season. 

 

2)  He had an issue with letting his guard down when he thought he had a receiver covered and thought the ball wasn't going to come that way.    Where a top veteran CB would use that time to take a peek back at the ball.....Gilmore would rarely look for the ball.   So QB's would put up some surprising 50/50 balls at him to guys you wouldn't expect and he never got his head around and got hit for some big plays and TD's that way.   I think at one point he had a string where the last 3 TD passes he gave up to were all to rookies.    One was the immortal Stephen Hill.    It happened in preseason too........I remember a Carolina game with him being all over Kelvin Benjamin in coverage....easing up and KB taking him to the house.   The failure to look back for the ball hurt wrt interceptions as well obviously.   Popular CB's get interceptions.

 

3) Gilmore also was not an aggressive tackler and....Rex era aside......he had some really bad and costly poor efforts early in his career at a time when he wasn't nearly as consistent in coverage.   Can't recall the game but there was one where defeat was sealed by a Gilmore phantom tackle effort.   After the criticism from that game he again went on to have an outstanding season.    

 

Issues 2 & 3 made it look like his head and heart weren't totally in the game until he received criticism.

 

Factor in the high expectations and he wasn't the most popular guy going into seasons 4 and 5 with Buffalo.............but then he really turned it on.

 

Tre White........by contrast.........really came out firing as a rookie.    That has helped his popularity with fans.   Helps that the scheme is a great fit for him but he was just a more finished product than Gilmore entering the league.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Wrong. They could have paid him.  They could have tagged him.  They could have extended his deal the year prior.

Bad decision by Whaley not to extend.  Worse decision by McD to not bring him back.

McD is the one who chose not to bring back Gilmore, Woods, and gave up on Dareus and Watkins.  So he is as much to blame as anyone.  I wanted Gilmore and was upset Whaley didn't extend him after his fourth year.  There was no reason to give TT the money he got.  They could have signed Gilmore instead and made TT prove it another year. Same mistake with Fitz earlier.  As for Woods, they were priced out of the market for him.  I have no revisionist history on that move. LA paid him like a star and he was at best a complimentary piece in Buffalo.  

 

Good post.

 

I disagree with you a bit on Woods.  The overall number and duration of his contract sounded big - $39M with $15M guaranteed - but his actual cap number in 2017 was only $7M, and the actual guarantee was $10M, with additional injury guarantee of $5M if he was on the 2018 roster.  After 2018, they were not (until the 2017 season finished) really committed if he hadn't worked out.

 

When you get into the details, that's really not star WR money - the guaranteed money puts Wood at #39 or so currently and maybe #34? when he signed. Fundamentally, the Rams paid him like a high-quality #2, which was totally fair for his 2016 performance on the Bills - not the overall yards, but the catch % and the abilities he showed.   He led us in yards and in WR/TE catch %, he was only a few yards less YPG than Sammy, and Woods played 13 games.

 

When you add up what the Bills spent on other WR in the aggregate in 2017 and certainly 2018, it's really kind of hard to argue the Bills couldn't have paid Woods.

 

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Apropis of your point above about qbs, I thought you might be interested in this piece:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/a-cheap-qb-is-a-quick-route-to-nfl-playoffs-but-sustained-success-costs-big-money/2019/01/03/c014f9ba-0f9a-11e9-84fc-d58c33d6c8c7_story.html?utm_term=.dad9be59b542

 

And then there's this

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/2/18164980/nfl-playoffs-quarterbacks-salary-cap-kirk-cousins-patrick-mahomes

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

If you took the end of the year 2016 roster and compared it position by position to this one, sans QB, it’s at the worst equal.

 

Ohmygoodness, I don't see how you can make that argument at all.

 

OL?

WR?

clearly not

anywhere else?  match it up and marshal your argument

 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ohmygoodness, I don't see how you can make that argument at all.

 

OL?

WR?

clearly not

anywhere else?  match it up and marshal your argument

 

Richie, Wood, Glenn > Dawkins, who and who? 

Sammy, Woods, Goodwin > Foster, who and who?

 

Silly argument.