IslandBillsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Hi Friends, Sorry to start a thread without all the details but I was talking in the shout-box and have yet to receive a good answer. In my memory, last week the Bills faced the Lions and had a 4th and 2 at approximately the 12 yard line. If I remember correctly (which is a miracle) the Bills were down 13 to 7. We elected to go for it and ran a play where JA scrambled and eventually ended up short of the first down. Many questions here which have yet to be discussed: 1) For all the folks who say we are not aggressive enough on 4th down situations, here is one we lost. Please explain. 2) One long time poster (sorry I cant remember who) stated that McDermont explained the call was for the development of the team. If that is true... interesting to see Sean McD is more interested in the future, than winning a game. Thoughts Bills fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sven233 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) Just because a play doesn't work, doesn't mean that the decision to go for it was wrong. Two separate things. Teams leave way too many points on the field because they play scared and don't go for 4th and short as much as they should. Be aggressive. With an huge, elite athlete, at QB, picking up 4th and short will happen more often than not. As we add more talent, the ability to convert 4th and short should turn into a weapon for us. Take advantage of it. Edited December 21, 2018 by sven233 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 With short yardage like that and with how Allen typically is scrambling going for it there must of been really tempting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, sven233 said: Just because a play doesn't work, doesn't mean that the decision to go for it was wrong. Two separate things. Teams leave way too many points on the field because they play scared and don't go for 4th and short as much as they should. Be aggressive. Be aggressive when you have an OL that doesn’t suck and WRs that can get open and catch the ball 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsSB2020 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It was the correct call mathematically. The only thing concerning is if McDermott doesn't coach that way in games that matter. Our win percentage skyrockets if we convert and only slightly ticks up if we make the FG. The odds of getting 2 yards outweigh the cost. Even if you fail, you're still down one score with the Lions pinned deep. I hope McDermott coach's that way ALL THE TIME. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sven233 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, NewEra said: Be aggressive when you have an OL that doesn’t suck and WRs that can get open and catch the ball In the grand scheme of things, a win or loss in that game didn't matter. Also, Allen had been playing well. Couple that with the fact that he has run for almost 500 yards this season, it doesn't really matter what the OL and WRs have been like. They are capable of getting 2 yards. They just didn't on that occasion Fact is, whether you get it or not, it is a 1 score game. It's the right call every time (unless it's really late in the game and a FG makes it a 1 score game instead of a 2 score game). Edited December 21, 2018 by sven233 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfaninChicago Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Similar to this discussion. Everyone loves it when teams go for the win with a 2 point conversion instead of an extra point at the end of regulation. I am in the minority and think it is a dumb move over aggressive move. I would think you have a lot more chances to win in OT then if you have a busted play on a 2 point conversion. It worked for Anthony Lynn but was a bust for Mike Vrable this season so I guess based on the data we have in 2018 it is a split verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I fully support the call. Wins and losses don't matter this season. We are practicing to be a "good team" right now, which will hopefully start paying off next season, so I think McD needs to start "stretching his legs" a little and see how the team responds. In other words, he needs to put Josh Allen, and others, in a position to push the boundaries between good and great, and see what the results are. Just my opinion of course, but I hope I'm right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I wanted us to go for it and I kind of expected us to. I also felt like given the chance, Allen was going to play hero ball and try and run for it. I also felt like every other person in the stadium, including the Lions knew that. It went pretty much exactly how I expected. He’s got to try and be a passer first. All day he seemed to get that until the biggest spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 27 minutes ago, sven233 said: Just because a play doesn't work, doesn't mean that the decision to go for it was wrong. Two separate things. Teams leave way too many points on the field because they play scared and don't go for 4th and short as much as they should. Be aggressive. With an huge, elite athlete, at QB, picking up 4th and short will happen more often than not. As we add more talent, the ability to convert 4th and short should turn into a weapon for us. Take advantage of it. Not at all a horribly designed and executed play that did not work cannot hide behind “ it might have worked” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: I wanted us to go for it and I kind of expected us to. I also felt like given the chance, Allen was going to play hero ball and try and run for it. I also felt like every other person in the stadium, including the Lions knew that. It went pretty much exactly how I expected. He’s got to try and be a passer first. All day he seemed to get that until the biggest spots. You must have missed the game winning TD pass to Foster that was the biggest spot of them all. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: You must have missed the game winning TD pass to Foster that was the biggest spot of them all. I saw the first down on a 4th down that sealed the game and the 4th down that they went for and missed. Both runs by Allen. I didn’t say every significant play was a run. I just mean the big time pressure spots (4th down) were runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: I saw the first down on a 4th down that sealed the game and the 4th down that they went for and missed. Both runs by Allen. I didn’t say every significant play was a run. I just mean the big time pressure spots (4th down) were runs. The first was a scramble the second was them using Allen to get the inches they needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeskillitMoorman Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, IslandBillsFan said: Hi Friends, Sorry to start a thread without all the details but I was talking in the shout-box and have yet to receive a good answer. In my memory, last week the Bills faced the Lions and had a 4th and 2 at approximately the 12 yard line. If I remember correctly (which is a miracle) the Bills were down 13 to 7. We elected to go for it and ran a play where JA scrambled and eventually ended up short of the first down. Many questions here which have yet to be discussed: 1) For all the folks who say we are not aggressive enough on 4th down situations, here is one we lost. Please explain. 2) One long time poster (sorry I cant remember who) stated that McDermont explained the call was for the development of the team. If that is true... interesting to see Sean McD is more interested in the future, than winning a game. Thoughts Bills fans? I have been one of the loudest in calling out McDermott for his extreme conservativeness as a coach and decision maker. That being said...I was a little more encouraged by that call on Sunday. It was 100% the right call. As people here have said, just because it didn't work, that doesn't mean it's the wrong call. I go for that 4th and 2 every single time without any hesitation. Field goals are trash, they're great if you like to be bad or mediocre. I hope the call wasn't just for development in the sense that he wanted to give a young QB an extra big play for the sake of it, but rather he'll lean towards going for it more as he develops trust in the QB. Hard to say because he's been so incredibly conservative here, but I'm hoping that was a step in the right direction. 1 hour ago, Leonhart2017 said: Similar to this discussion. Everyone loves it when teams go for the win with a 2 point conversion instead of an extra point at the end of regulation. I am in the minority and think it is a dumb move over aggressive move. I would think you have a lot more chances to win in OT then if you have a busted play on a 2 point conversion. It worked for Anthony Lynn but was a bust for Mike Vrable this season so I guess based on the data we have in 2018 it is a split verdict. I love going for 2 in those spots if your QB is your best, or at least one of your best players. If you have a really good offense, I'd take that shot to win the game over the possibility that your best don't even touch the ball in OT. I'd have to go back to see the play the Titans ran, I don't like their QB so I don't know if I would have been as confident with that one. I know the Colts lost a game like that as well...but I would have no regrets about putting the game on Andrew Luck's shoulders. Sometimes the best decisions don't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 58 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: I saw the first down on a 4th down that sealed the game and the 4th down that they went for and missed. Both runs by Allen. I didn’t say every significant play was a run. I just mean the big time pressure spots (4th down) were runs. 4th and and inch should be a run on a QB sneak. The 4th and 2 play wasn't a run until there was nothing in the passing game with the play breaking down. The 4th and 2 wasn't much in the end as there was plenty of game left to be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Johnson Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, BillsSB2020 said: It was the correct call mathematically. The only thing concerning is if McDermott doesn't coach that way in games that matter. Our win percentage skyrockets if we convert and only slightly ticks up if we make the FG. The odds of getting 2 yards outweigh the cost. Even if you fail, you're still down one score with the Lions pinned deep. I hope McDermott coach's that way ALL THE TIME. Someone who gets it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Liked the decision, didn't like the play call. Loved the decision to go for the 4th down on final drive, Allen looks automatic in 4th & 1 or less. People gotta remember, this is only McDs 2nd year as an NFL HC , he's learning too and finding his groove, I'm encouraged by the aggressiveness last gm. He has been too conservative at times but I think we'll continue to see more aggressiveness as he gains confidence in Allen and this young offense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I said kick the FG at the time. Down 13-7, you make it 13-10 and you can still pin the Lions at the 20 with the ensuing kick-off. Then if the Lions kick a FG on the next drive, it's still just a one-possession game. I think there are two ways of approaching it. Playing the odds or playing the points. What I described above is playing the points. Going for it on 4th down is playing the odds. The biggest problem I have with it is the play call. Everyone is expecting Allen to run it there. The Lions D-line just stayed in their spots, so that he had nowhere to go. You gotta call something a little more creative in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 hours ago, BillsSB2020 said: It was the correct call mathematically. The only thing concerning is if McDermott doesn't coach that way in games that matter. Our win percentage skyrockets if we convert and only slightly ticks up if we make the FG. The odds of getting 2 yards outweigh the cost. Even if you fail, you're still down one score with the Lions pinned deep. I hope McDermott coach's that way ALL THE TIME. I am sure he will when he has a little more confidence in his offense (WHen you are still playing for the marbles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 hours ago, IslandBillsFan said: Hi Friends, Sorry to start a thread without all the details but I was talking in the shout-box and have yet to receive a good answer. In my memory, last week the Bills faced the Lions and had a 4th and 2 at approximately the 12 yard line. If I remember correctly (which is a miracle) the Bills were down 13 to 7. We elected to go for it and ran a play where JA scrambled and eventually ended up short of the first down. Many questions here which have yet to be discussed: 1) For all the folks who say we are not aggressive enough on 4th down situations, here is one we lost. Please explain. 2) One long time poster (sorry I cant remember who) stated that McDermont explained the call was for the development of the team. If that is true... interesting to see Sean McD is more interested in the future, than winning a game. Thoughts Bills fans? So many things wrong with this post, it’s hard to know where to start. 2 hours ago, BillsSB2020 said: It was the correct call mathematically. The only thing concerning is if McDermott doesn't coach that way in games that matter. Our win percentage skyrockets if we convert and only slightly ticks up if we make the FG. The odds of getting 2 yards outweigh the cost. Even if you fail, you're still down one score with the Lions pinned deep. I hope McDermott coach's that way ALL THE TIME. Thank you. The key here is that a FG accomplishes next to nothing in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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