BringBackOrton Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Doc said: Yes, really. What did they "blow up"? Must have been a forgettable conversation then. Uh, we traded away several former first and second round picks and replaced them with bargain bin players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: Uh, we traded away several former first and second round picks and replaced them with bargain bin players. That was last year...and they still made the playoffs. This year has been all about the offense struggling because they lost 2 of their best OL, largely through no fault of their own and having a rookie QB, which was always supposed to be the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 hours ago, rochester rob said: Gruden is really going to run that team into the ground. Just like he did Tampa Bay. Gruden has always been overrated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 39 minutes ago, Doc said: That was last year...and they still made the playoffs. This year has been all about the offense struggling because they lost 2 of their best OL, largely through no fault of their own and having a rookie QB, which was always supposed to be the plan. Yeah and partly our offense has struggled this year because of last years moves (Sammy, Gillislee, Woods etc.) Last year, our offense sucked too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Mack, Carr and Cooper was a pretty solid foundation. I guess Carr will find his way out next. Maybe Washington TB or Jacksonville. Only the Raiders could screw that up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 19 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: Yeah and partly our offense has struggled this year because of last years moves (Sammy, Gillislee, Woods etc.) Last year, our offense sucked too. It all starts with the OL. It wasn't great last year and got considerably worse with the departures of Wood and Incognito. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKellyTryouts Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 4 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...ironically, Ralph went into desperation mode and offered Cowher $10 mil/yr who was texting back and forth about it with Brandon......Cowher's late wife wanted no part of living in Buffalo.....if he wanted to coach again, he could have had the Panthers' job right in his NC back yard when Fox was fired............ Is it true that his wife was a factor in turning us down (a la Chris Drury)? I remember she was terminally ill so I assumed he flat out wasn't interested in coaching (like you said with Carolina) because of her and his comfort in the CBS booth. He's regularly spoke highly of our fanbase and the team during the 90s and even smashed a table pregame picking us against the jags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, JimKellyTryouts said: Is it true that his wife was a factor in turning us down (a la Chris Drury)? I remember she was terminally ill so I assumed he flat out wasn't interested in coaching (like you said with Carolina) because of her and his comfort in the CBS booth. He's regularly spoke highly of our fanbase and the team during the 90s and even smashed a table pregame picking us against the jags ....wish I could remember the exact time line, but I think it was after Mularkey resigned in 2005.....Cowher's wife passed away in 2010.........I don't think (probably wrong) she had been diagnosed with terminal skin cancer in 2005...I believe Cowher did recommend Chan Gailey......... Edited December 11, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 11 hours ago, stuvian said: Mack, Carr and Cooper was a pretty solid foundation. I guess Carr will find his way out next. Maybe Washington TB or Jacksonville. Only the Raiders could screw that up Carr's a mediocrity at best.. Cooper had 280 yards in 6 games this year with Carr. 680 last year--that's less than Jared Cook, the TE. Mack was a loss for sure, but this team was 6-10 with all of those players last year. It's not like Gruden destroyed a perennial playoff contender. They had a fluke 12-4 season. In 2016----like the Jags had last season. The Bills got rid of a starting QB not much worse than Carr. They got rid of their 1st round draft pick WR. They got rid of their 1st round DT. I'm not yet going to judge Gruden, who has made similar moves (and has a ton of high draft picks) and has 1 less win than the McD Bills this year. Let's see how he rebuilds with all those 1st round picks. McKenzie produced 2 great picks in 7 seasons, had one winning season, followed by a losing season, after which he fired the HC. Why wouldn't that get you fired as a GM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Yeah McKenzie was a dead man walking. But if they give full personnel control to Gruden, that will be a huge mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Just now, Doc said: Yeah McKenzie was a dead man walking. But if they give full personnel control to Gruden, that will be a huge mistake. He's had it since he walked back in the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Carr's a mediocrity at best.. Cooper had 280 yards in 6 games this year with Carr. 680 last year--that's less than Jared Cook, the TE. Mack was a loss for sure, but this team was 6-10 with all of those players last year. It's not like Gruden destroyed a perennial playoff contender. They had a fluke 12-4 season. In 2016----like the Jags had last season. The Bills got rid of a starting QB not much worse than Carr. They got rid of their 1st round draft pick WR. They got rid of their 1st round DT. I'm not yet going to judge Gruden, who has made similar moves (and has a ton of high draft picks) and has 1 less win than the McD Bills this year. Let's see how he rebuilds with all those 1st round picks. McKenzie produced 2 great picks in 7 seasons, had one winning season, followed by a losing season, after which he fired the HC. Why wouldn't that get you fired as a GM? This is basically where I'm at. I think everything Gruden has done personnel-wise to this point is pretty defensible. I'm not sure I believe in his on-the-field philosophies anymore, but I don't think trading Mack was a bad decision. I think trading Amari was a legitimately good decision. And I think moving on from Carr (if they choose to do so) is a fine decision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: He's had it since he walked back in the door. Kinda figured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 minute ago, DCOrange said: This is basically where I'm at. I think everything Gruden has done personnel-wise to this point is pretty defensible. I'm not sure I believe in his on-the-field philosophies anymore, but I don't think trading Mack was a bad decision. I think trading Amari was a legitimately good decision. And I think moving on from Carr (if they choose to do so) is a fine decision. I have no doubt Gruden looked a lot at Carr last season and said..."nope". He certainly got value for his trades and he will pick his QB in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Carr's a mediocrity at best.. Cooper had 280 yards in 6 games this year with Carr. 680 last year--that's less than Jared Cook, the TE. Mack was a loss for sure, but this team was 6-10 with all of those players last year. It's not like Gruden destroyed a perennial playoff contender. They had a fluke 12-4 season. In 2016----like the Jags had last season. The Bills got rid of a starting QB not much worse than Carr. They got rid of their 1st round draft pick WR. They got rid of their 1st round DT. I'm not yet going to judge Gruden, who has made similar moves (and has a ton of high draft picks) and has 1 less win than the McD Bills this year. Let's see how he rebuilds with all those 1st round picks. McKenzie produced 2 great picks in 7 seasons, had one winning season, followed by a losing season, after which he fired the HC. Why wouldn't that get you fired as a GM? I guess the thought process is you shouldn’t need to trade your two best players to rebuild your roster in today’s NFL. You can say Amari Cooper was underperforming it checked out and I get that. But Mack was not. The dirty little secret is that Mack was traded because the Raiders have a cash flow problem and couldn’t afford him. Intentional or not, Davis chose Gruden over Mack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: I guess the thought process is you shouldn’t need to trade your two best players to rebuild your roster in today’s NFL. You can say Amari Cooper was underperforming it checked out and I get that. But Mack was not. The dirty little secret is that Mack was traded because the Raiders have a cash flow problem and couldn’t afford him. Intentional or not, Davis chose Gruden over Mack. No, Mack was a stud for sure. But you don't build a playoff team around one D player. He had more value to a dying team as a source for high draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: I guess the thought process is you shouldn’t need to trade your two best players to rebuild your roster in today’s NFL. You can say Amari Cooper was underperforming it checked out and I get that. But Mack was not. The dirty little secret is that Mack was traded because the Raiders have a cash flow problem and couldn’t afford him. Intentional or not, Davis chose Gruden over Mack. Even if the Raiders had the money, they were a bottom 5 defense three of the four years they had him and were showing zero signs of improvement. It's hard to justify paying him almost $24 million per year when he's not really making any discernible impact on the field for you. I can't say I blame the Raiders at all for taking multiple first round picks and the cap space instead of paying him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Just now, Mr. WEO said: No, Mack was a stud for sure. But you don't build a playoff team around one D player. He had more value to a dying team as a source for high draft picks. Sure you do. It’s quite honestly the second most important position in the NFL. There’s a reason star pass rushers almost never get traded, even on rebuilding teams. Cam Jordan, Von Miller, Donald, Watt/Clowney, Cam Wake, etc. Hell, even Jerry Hughes is likely the second most untouchable guy on our roster. Now the natural counter argument is “how many rings do those guys have” which is a silly one. There is obviously no position besides HoF QB which directly correlates with rings. But those guys have been key pieces on playoffs teams and more. Now if you want to say that Gruden has a good idea who is the next star QB and that’s who he is aiming for, fine. But I think he’s no better a talent evaluator than anyone else, and he took an unnecessary step back. But if he drafts the next Brady, I’ll be wrong. If he drafts the next Tannehill and mires in .500 land, he’ll be gone before his contract is half up. 2 minutes ago, DCOrange said: Even if the Raiders had the money, they were a bottom 5 defense three of the four years they had him and were showing zero signs of improvement. It's hard to justify paying him almost $24 million per year when he's not really making any discernible impact on the field for you. I can't say I blame the Raiders at all for taking multiple first round picks and the cap space instead of paying him. Yeah no. The two time All-Pro had a huge discernible impact on the field, if you watched him play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: Sure you do. It’s quite honestly the second most important position in the NFL. There’s a reason star pass rushers almost never get traded, even on rebuilding teams. Cam Jordan, Von Miller, Donald, Watt/Clowney, Cam Wake, etc. Hell, even Jerry Hughes is likely the second most untouchable guy on our roster. Now the natural counter argument is “how many rings do those guys have” which is a silly one. There is obviously no position besides HoF QB which directly correlates with rings. But those guys have been key pieces on playoffs teams and more. Now if you want to say that Gruden has a good idea who is the next star QB and that’s who he is aiming for, fine. But I think he’s no better a talent evaluator than anyone else, and he took an unnecessary step back. But if he drafts the next Brady, I’ll be wrong. If he drafts the next Tannehill and mires in .500 land, he’ll be gone before his contract is half up. With Mack still on this team with Carr---hell, throw back in Cooper--this is still a losing team. I think Gruden reasonably felt he could turn a stat-monster like Mack (the Raiders D was bottom half last year) into picks that will develop a scoring offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: Yeah no. The two time All-Pro had a huge discernible impact on the field, if you watched him play. They were literally one of the worst defenses in the league on a consistent basis when he was there. He's clearly an elite player but by no means was he making a significant impact. Last season, the defense was 29th in points allowed per drive and yards allowed per drive. This year, they're 30th and 29th. There's been almost no drop-off without him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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