Offensive Line Struggles

[DC Tom]

18 minutes ago, Ittakestime said:

Bodine was underrated.

 

When he was in, there was definitely an improvement.

 

Dawkins also isn't a franchise LT.  Would love to draft one in top 5 this year.

 

 

 

Was thinking about that in regards to my observation about schemes above...it's the first time in a while that Groy started at center.  Although the line is short on talent, and I question the schemes, it could just as easily be that with Bodine out, Groy wasn't calling the blocking assignments well or properly.  The mass confusion in the video in the first post is easily as consistent with that as with poor schemes.  

[ctk232]

16 hours ago, NewEra said:

Dawkins IS sloppy.  He leads the team in penalties and has given up 6+ sacks.  Move him to guard, get 2 new tackles and a center and call it a day.

I've been wondering this the whole season...I like Dawkins and think he's been great for us. He was never initially meant to be a tackle, nor did he ever really spend much time there. Especially at LT. For a guard asked to cover the rookie's blindside through PAP concepts and Allen's own knack at times to hold onto the ball, I think he's done a great job. But I also wonder how much of his play at LT has stood out within the context of a rather piss poor OL, and that he's simply a big fish in a small pond. 

 

Now the part that I've wondered was whether we really want Dawkins at LT moving forward - or if we actually might help ourselves by moving him inside and getting a strong LT/RT? I like the idea of Dawkins/Center/Teller as both Dawkins and Teller are mobile enough to swing and get to the second level on pulls and screens. They both bring the physical aspect to that dimension as well. 

 

For the immediate future, I believe the way FA falls will determine this. It will certainly determine how we approach the draft, and while Beane looks to be going BPA there, who knows, maybe we end up with Jonah Williams or Greg Little. But it might be the case Dawkins stays at LT given what might potentially fall our way this offseason.

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

Was thinking about that in regards to my observation about schemes above...it's the first time in a while that Groy started at center.  Although the line is short on talent, and I question the schemes, it could just as easily be that with Bodine out, Groy wasn't calling the blocking assignments well or properly.  The mass confusion in the video in the first post is easily as consistent with that as with poor schemes.  

This was, in fact, the issue early in the season when he was the starter, no? Could very well be the case yesterday. Anytime a Center goes down you see a change in the OL play and coordination to varying extents for obvious reasons. As the QB of the OL you're going to see more issues.

 

While Bodine isn't anything to write home about, it could just be Groy is that much of a step down at the Center position.

Edited December 10, 2018 by ctk232

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

I've been wondering this the whole season...I like Dawkins and think he's been great for us. He was never initially meant to be a tackle, nor did he ever really spend much time there. Especially at LT. For a guard asked to cover the rookie's blindside through PAP concepts and Allen's own knack at times to hold onto the ball, I think he's done a great job. But I also wonder how much of his play at LT has stood out within the context of a rather piss poor OL, and that he's simply a big fish in a small pond. 

 

Now the part that I've wondered was whether we really want Dawkins at LT moving forward - or if we actually might help ourselves by moving him inside and getting a strong LT/RT? I like the idea of Dawkins/Center/Teller as both Dawkins and Teller are mobile enough to swing and get to the second level on pulls and screens. They both bring the physical aspect to that dimension as well. 

 

For the immediate future, I believe the way FA falls will determine this. It will certainly determine how we approach the draft, and while Beane looks to be going BPA there, who knows, maybe we end up with Jonah Williams or Greg Little. But it might be the case Dawkins stays at LT given what might potentially fall our way this offseason.

This was, in fact, the issue early in the season when he was the starter, no? Could very well be the case yesterday. Anytime a Center goes down you see a change in the OL play and coordination to varying extents. While Bodine isn't anything to write home about, it could just be Groy is that much of a step down at the Center position.

Gives up lots of pressure/sacks/penalties.  We can’t run at all.  I’m sure he’d be better playing next to a stud like Ritchie but I think we should move him to guard or at least RT unless his play improves a lot

[wppete]

 

[Coach Tuesday]

9 minutes ago, wppete said:

 

 

I do not understand what John Miller's problem is.  He is better than that - something is wrong with him.  Could be mental.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 12/10/2018 at 7:05 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

On that plan Mills and Miller both do a decent job of keeping their guys wide and creating the lane. Teller really needs to drive his guy back though and Murphy needs to attack the line aggressively. If Teller wins his 1v1 then with Thomas and Thompson already engaged on the 2nd level guys that could easily be a 10 yard gain and a first down. That is another example of individual execution letting a play down.

 

...certainly understand what you're saying, but wasn't this Teller's fourth start as a 5th round rook?.......I'll go back to an old Cowher quote that I still remember (surprisingly)..."the OL is THE most important UNIT on the football field....if they are not in sync, all else fails".....that unit cohesiveness and continuity has to grow over time to jell IMO.....

Edited December 11, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...certainly understand what you're saying, but wasn't this Teller's fourth start as a 5th round rook?.......I'll go back to an old Cowher quote that I still remember (surprisingly)..."the OL is THE most important UNIT on the football field....if they are not in sync, all else fails".....that unit cohesiveness and continuity has to grow over time to jell IMO.....

 

I am not writing Teller off by any means. But that play he was the breakdown on the OL. 

[frostbitmic]

A group of 70 year old women would overwhelm this O-line.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not writing Teller off by any means. But that play he was the breakdown on the OL. 

 

 

....given time and plenty of work though, do you think he could develop either as a starter or as a formidable back up?.....see any tendencies you like GB?............

[3rdand12]

On 12/9/2018 at 11:04 PM, DC Tom said:

That play looks to be as much a scheme problem as a personnel problem.

expand please.

 excuse me if you already have. i just started reading.

some one mentioned about our inability to properly cut block etc in regard to the brou haha with Dawkins second Offensive play in. I felt it was just poor execution nd not a dirty play

On 12/10/2018 at 11:13 AM, T master said:

 

If McD is half the coach we hope he is he will see where the problem lies like he did in letting his previous Offensive coordinator go after bad offensive production that actually took the team to the play offs !

 

He got rid of part of the problem being Rick Dennison now if he can take off the blinders & realize that Juan Castillo has a SB ring for no real apparent reason other than he was hired at a opportune time that season than he will be the guy we thought to be !!

 

Andy Reid saw it in Philly when he fired him now i just hope all that McD learned under Reid & his other coaches comes tot he top & he gets a different O line coach as well to complete the purge of less than elite coaching talent on offense !! 

One would hope he has long had his eye on a couple guys. and has been using Daboll's input as a more qualified evaluator than Mr Dennison , who was surely just passing through : )

[PolishPrince]

1 hour ago, wppete said:

 

Damn Allen needs to go through his progressions in the pocket (sarcasm)

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

....given time and plenty of work though, do you think he could develop either as a starter or as a formidable back up?.....see any tendencies you like GB?............

 

I think he is a potentially a good run blocker and an average pass blocker. He has been inconsistent in the run game and bad in the pass game so far. 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I do not understand what John Miller's problem is.  He is better than that - something is wrong with him.  Could be mental.  

I have seen him move men back and around.  is it lack of study, lack of teaching, or just lack of ability in mind or body. I was a fan of him. now i question my thinking on John. They did sit him awhile for Vlad. and Vlad is no world beater , bless his heart !

[LABILLBACKER]

On 12/9/2018 at 8:05 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Pathetic today.  Even Dawkins was sloppy.  Going to have to pay some major attention to this position group in the offseason.

What's sad is the only decent lineman we have is probably Dawkins and he's more of a RT then left.  Everyone else could easily be released or reevaluated as a backup. The draft + $90M may not be enough to revamp this OL in 1 year.

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

expand please.

 excuse me if you already have. i just started reading.

 

Watch the center and LG.  Run's over center, Jets showing a 5-man front, ultimately with one dropping back.  At the snap, the RG and RT block their defenders out of position to make a play.  TE on the right side is going to the next level to engage an LB.  The DT hits the gap between C and LG.  Center doesn't engage, but goes to engage the LBs at the next level as well.  LG engages the DL is coming between C and LG, the guard blocks him in to the hole opened by the RG and RT, which, even if the DT doesn't shed the block and blow up the play, still forces the RB to run laterally.

 

If the C blocks that same lineman, he at least ties him up, and probably seals him from the RB's running lane, because he'd be blocking the lineman in the exact opposite direction from where the LG blocks him.  C takes the DT, pull the LG around C as a lead blocker, or just double-team the lineman and let the TE take care of the linebacker, and that's four yards.  Have the guard engage the lineman behind the center, and he's right in the middle of the running lane.  The execution was no great shakes on that play, but it was a lousy scheme or the C botched the line call as well.

[oldmanfan]

I have a feeling we'll have 5 starters at new positions next year Dawkins to G, maybe Teller moving to the right side), being coached by a new O line coach.  Beane and McD have to know they need to protect their potential franchise QB.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

18 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have a feeling we'll have 5 starters at new positions next year Dawkins to G, maybe Teller moving to the right side), being coached by a new O line coach.  Beane and McD have to know they need to protect their potential franchise QB.

 

Teller played RG for a lot of training camp.  I wonder if playing on the right side comes more naturally to him?

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Watch the center and LG.  Run's over center, Jets showing a 5-man front, ultimately with one dropping back.  At the snap, the RG and RT block their defenders out of position to make a play.  TE on the right side is going to the next level to engage an LB.  The DT hits the gap between C and LG.  Center doesn't engage, but goes to engage the LBs at the next level as well.  LG engages the DL is coming between C and LG, the guard blocks him in to the hole opened by the RG and RT, which, even if the DT doesn't shed the block and blow up the play, still forces the RB to run laterally.

 

If the C blocks that same lineman, he at least ties him up, and probably seals him from the RB's running lane, because he'd be blocking the lineman in the exact opposite direction from where the LG blocks him.  C takes the DT, pull the LG around C as a lead blocker, or just double-team the lineman and let the TE take care of the linebacker, and that's four yards.  Have the guard engage the lineman behind the center, and he's right in the middle of the running lane.  The execution was no great shakes on that play, but it was a lousy scheme or the C botched the line call as well.

What i have seen this year is play adjustments at the line have been less than stellar. Bodine as well.

But he did improve as games came and went.

Groy is a different animal in his physical ability than Bodine.
 Groy is making mental errors and or his boys aside of him are not used to his call outs.

as mentioned. and so often under valued.
Center is the lynchpin.

 He also needs to be tuned into the QB. How he drops is s simple thing means so much.
 For me Tom , i find it hard to evaluate this line. Especially since plugging in Teller and the Sirles and then Miller and then Boetgeer (sp)
maybe i am too old school.

but and  O line need to follow a drummer. and they need to practice timing incessantly with the same  players.
 

which brings me back to one of my gripes about OTAs and such.

No group needs more reps together as one than the O line and  and their QB.  You change one piece and it could make a huge difference while adjusting. and you changes center midstream, and now twice ? yikes
 

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I have a feeling we'll have 5 starters at new positions next year Dawkins to G, maybe Teller moving to the right side), being coached by a new O line coach.  Beane and McD have to know they need to protect their potential franchise QB.

just give me a new line Coach first. i expect it honestly.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

What i have seen this year is play adjustments at the line have been less than stellar. Bodine as well.

But he did improve as games came and went.

Groy is a different animal in his physical ability than Bodine.
 Groy is making mental errors and or his boys aside of him are not used to his call outs.

as mentioned. and so often under valued.
Center is the lynchpin.

 He also needs to be tuned into the QB. How he drops is s simple thing means so much.
 For me Tom , i find it hard to evaluate this line. Especially since plugging in Teller and the Sirles and then Miller and then Boetgeer (sp)
maybe i am too old school.

but and  O line need to follow a drummer. and they need to practice timing incessantly with the same  players.
 

which brings me back to one of my gripes about OTAs and such.

No group needs more reps together as one than the O line and  and their QB.  You change one piece and it could make a huge difference while adjusting. and you changes center midstream, and now twice ? yikes
 

just give me a new line Coach first. i expect it honestly.

If that's not the second decision in the offseason I'll be surprised.  The first of course being Crossman.

[GreggTX]

We need a stud at LT and move Dawkins to RT. We need a starting C and throw another G into the mix and let him compete with Teller, Miller and Ducasse for the 2 starting spots. I'd say get a stud G, but we also need studs at CB, DT and WR. That's asking a lot for 1 offseason even with $90 million in cap space. We have 10 picks, but all the extras are on day 3. This offseason will be anything but boring.