Is Vander Eshe to Edmunds the same as Juju to Zay

[Bing Bong]

On 12/1/2018 at 11:40 PM, HappyDays said:

 

You're right, but he's also making catches like this:

 

 

I honestly haven't seen a single catch made by Zay Jones that wowed me. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if he turns it around though.

He also knocked Burfict's socks off last year. That's worth something to me..

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Who is saying anything positive or negative? I said "the jury is out." Jones looks alright; Edmunds looks decent. It's too soon to tell. No need to be inquisitorially seeking out critics when criticism isn't the issue.

If you think Beane and McDermott aren't on exactly the same page, you haven't been paying attention. It is also extremely likely that McDermott was aware of the Panthers liked given his extremely tight relationship with Beane in Carolina.  

Sorry Dave....I have you mixed up with other posters on this then.....it usually comes around on the Mahommes issue

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

Yup.  Of course Pittsburgh has drafted much, much, much better than Buffalo for the last several decades so no one should be surprised.

arguably the best of any team really.

[CuddyDark]

16 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

If you think Beane and McDermott aren't on exactly the same page, you haven't been paying attention. It is also extremely likely that McDermott was aware who of the Panthers liked given his extremely tight relationship with Beane in Carolina.  

You believe what you want. I'll go with the facts.

[dave mcbride]

38 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

You believe what you want. I'll go with the facts.

What are the facts? Do you have evidence that Doug Whaley had any say in who the Bills drafted when their turn on the clock came up on that draft day? 

Edited December 11, 2018 by dave mcbride

[SoTier]

On 11/30/2018 at 7:38 AM, ProcessTruster said:

way too early to tell.   Edmunds is like 19.  He'll get stronger in the offseason and smarter next year.   Zay with Ben would be pretty good.   Ben 2 = Josh. 

 

Its all a process.  Trust it.   

 

the media makes everyone on the cowboys a big star so as to improve ratings.  the media desperately needs the cowboys to be relevant for TV ratings, so anyone who even looks the part is made out to be superman

 

What a crock!   All you're doing is attempting to defend a questionable move the Bills FO by dissing another team for being successful, partly because they picked a player who has blossomed as a rookie while the player the Bills traded up to get continues to struggle.

 

The Cowboys made THEMSELVES "relevant" by winning their last five games in a row, and Vander Eshe has become a key player on a dominant defense that has led the Cowboys' resurgence.  Edmunds makes occasional good plays on a statistically good defense that fails to play clutch when it needs to do so -- and some of that is because Edmunds has struggled as the MLB.

 

I have no opinion on whether the Bills should have taken Vander Eshe rather than Edmunds because Vander Eshe may not be suited to play in the Bills defensive system, but the big knock on Edmunds in the draft was that he didn't seem to have the "instincts" to make a great MLB because he wasn't particularly good at anticipating/diagnosing plays.  That's been borne out in his play this this season.  He's still having trouble anticipating/diagnosing plays, and consequently, still making mistakes.  

 

Edmunds' skill set seems better suited to his being an OLB rather than MLB, and maybe both he and the Bills would be better served by switching him to a more natural position for him.  Forcing a square peg into a round hole seldom works out well in the long run, but keep on chanting "trust the process" in your blind allegiance to the current Bills regime.

 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

I have no opinion on whether the Bills should have taken Vander Eshe rather than Edmunds because Vander Eshe may not be suited to play in the Bills defensive system, but the big knock on Edmunds in the draft was that he didn't seem to have the "instincts" to make a great MLB because he wasn't particularly good at anticipating/diagnosing plays.  That's been borne out in his play this this season.  He's still having trouble anticipating/diagnosing plays, and consequently, still making mistakes.  

I'll take a guy that's already a key player in one of the league best defenses rookie year over a guy "THAT'S ONLY 19 AND MIGHT BE AS GOOD AS, AND IF WE'RE LUCKY, BETTER THAN LVE".

 

There's a thing called proven commodities in this league. The faster a rookie picks up the game the better. Who cares about potential when we're looking at someone that's met if not already exceeded potential. Being 19 doesn't mean a hill a beans. It makes you a bigger question mark as to what you're going to turn into.

Edited December 11, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[CuddyDark]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

What are the facts? Do you have evidence that Doug Whaley had any say in who the Bills drafted when their turn on the clock came up on that draft day? 

Facts Beane was not in Buffalo or employed by the Bills at that time.

[Bing Bong]

10 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Facts Beane was not in Buffalo or employed by the Bills at that time.

Fax Beane didn't draft. More fax, our owners had us in a bizarre situation where we have no idea how much or little impact Whaley had on the draft with McDermott and that is such a strange situation all due to the owners indecisiveness.  So this is a silly argument

 

Draft that year turned out pretty darn well on the defensive side of the ball somehow anyway

Edited December 11, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Fax Beane didn't draft. More fax, our owners had us in a bizarre situation where we have no idea how much or little impact Whaley had on the draft with McDermott and that is such a strange situation all due to the owners indecisiveness. 

 

Draft that year turned out pretty darn well on the defensive side of the ball somehow anyway

dave McBride wants to argue Beane vs Whaley because he was just wrong about Beane drafting Jones. I wasn't even talking about Jones I was talking about why it appears LVE is better than Edmunds. Edmunds is an athlete and he will either get much better than LVE as he grows or he will stay what he is because that's who he's always been. Donahoe had the same draft philosophy, draft the best athlete. I see Beane as that type of drafter based on his only draft with the Bills and to some degree the players he's signed as undrafted and low level free agents.

[Bing Bong]

7 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

dave McBride wants to argue Beane vs Whaley because he was just wrong about Beane drafting Jones. I wasn't even talking about Jones I was talking about why it appears LVE is better than Edmunds. Edmunds is an athlete and he will either get much better than LVE as he grows or he will stay what he is because that's who he's always been. Donahoe had the same draft philosophy, draft the best athlete. I see Beane as that type of drafter based on his only draft with the Bills and to some degree the players he's signed as undrafted and low level free agents.

Yeah I've already said it's pretty hard to the hands down better than Leighton Vander esch by this point career-wise. He looks multiple Pro Bowl bound already at the least. Could have had it this year if he played every game like he has the second half of the season. 

 

So basically we're praying on a miracle that Tremaine Edmunds ends his career flat-out better than LVE because that's looking to be perennial All-Pro status. Obviously LVE is more than athletic enough to play the game and is very smart to boot. I see a slightly more athletic linebacker with a lot of catching up to do in every other facet of the game.

Edited December 11, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[corta765]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:03 AM, oldmanfan said:

Guys, come on.  Have we really reached such a stage in society, have we really gotten to a point where our patience is so limited that one game from a player tells you that he is so much better than another guy?  VanderEsche had a good game last night from what I've read.  So Edmunds has shown he's coming along as a 20 year old rookie.

 

It is entirely possible that they both are going to be very good.  We have to stop thinking that everything is an either/or, bad or good choice in life.  Sometimes you can have two good things at once, or two bad things, or whatever.

 

Today's society is beyond impatient and this ^ is spot on.

 

After the first 5 games of Allen people said he was a bust now they say he is progressing nicely and could be a real home run. The truth is judging players take time and you will not see instant gratification with many guys.

 

The last two offseasons people said Goff was a bust and Trubisky was toast. Goff has turned into a very strong starter and Trubisky looks competent to be a potentially good starter for a decade.

[Bing Bong]

30 minutes ago, corta765 said:

After the first 5 games of Allen people said he was a bust now they say he is progressing nicely and could be a real home run. The truth is judging players take time and you will not see instant gratification with many guys.

But Allen did show instant gratification this season. That's fantastic is it not. Albeit a little later but so did LVE. I hate playing the "wish we had XXX players we never drafted" as much as the next guy. But instant returns are great. That's one less season where we find out if our guy can play vs not. Had Edmunds balled out this year we wouldn't be on pins and needles that next year is the year.. and if that doesn't work we're even more nervous year 3 this is the year!

 

So I respect JuJu and LVE's quick returns. They're simply on the fast tracks to great careers. We just have to hope Zay and Edmunds pan out later. The Mahomes miss isn't so bad because we knew day one he was a shut down corner. I'm rooting for Zay and Edmunds to justify their status, and every year they don't is diminishing chances they will. 

 

Knowing someone can play high level football immediately is fantastic. It means not wasting opportunity cost. No one in their right mind wants Zay and Edmunds cut of course we're rooting for them to play top ball ASAP. It's not impatience, we're very likely going to see their contracts out. Felt the same way about Shaq Lawson. But we can acknowledge it'd be great to see them show why we drafted them same way it's great JA is showing it.

 

Would you rather have Allen or Rosen at this point? Why do you pick which one? Because Allen has had a better season rookie year.

 

I'm sure Cardinals fans are preaching patience as they should but don't tell me they're not biting their nails they might have whiffed that one.

Edited December 12, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Misterbluesky]

On 11/30/2018 at 7:30 AM, H2o said:

No. Edmunds and Vander Esch are both the future at MLB in the NFL. Two good with the potential to be great rookies. 

Don't forget...Vander Esch has a reconstructed knee...one wrong twist and he'll be as useful as Kiko is now in Miami.

 

[Rico]

 

"Hee hee! Wheee!

[CommonCents]

17 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

Don't forget...Vander Esch has a reconstructed knee...one wrong twist and he'll be as useful as Kiko is now in Miami.

 

Where did you get that info? He had a grade 1 LCL sprain in 2016. His knee was never reconstructed. A team flagged him for a pinched nerve in his neck but it was cleared and he was never asked to come back for a recheck. He got a 4/5 grade for his total health. 

 

Please show me where he had his knee reconstructed. 

[Bing Bong]

18 minutes ago, Rico said:

 

"Hee hee! Wheee!

WE DIDN'T DRAFT THAD CASTLE FROM BMS?!?!

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

Facts Beane was not in Buffalo or employed by the Bills at that time.

 

Facts are that Sean McDermott ran the 2017 draft.  My guess is that he likely ran the 2018 draft, too.  IOW, McDermott has control of personnel with Beane being the guy who takes care of the details.  I don't think it was Beane who decided that Watkins wasn't a player the Bills needed or that Dareus had to go.

[Misterbluesky]

15 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Where did you get that info? He had a grade 1 LCL sprain in 2016. His knee was never reconstructed. A team flagged him for a pinched nerve in his neck but it was cleared and he was never asked to come back for a recheck. He got a 4/5 grade for his total health. 

 

Please show me where he had his knee reconstructed. 

After doing some digging,you seem to be right CC.Sprain is far different than getting a zipper.His neck was the issue.

[Alphadawg7]

Are people really unhappy with Edmunds?  I mean the kid has show a lot of potential already, his teammates rave about him, he has drawn praise from opposing teams and players, etc etc.  Is LVE having a better rookie season, sure, but he also plays on a better team.  Bills defense was a wreck the first 6 quarters of the year...then Allen got hurt and Pickerman and Company were beyond atrocious putting the D on the field a lot and frequently with short fields.  

 

So is it really fair to compare the two situations?  I mean what if Edmunds went to Dallas and LVE came to Buffalo?  We dont really know if LVE would still be making the same impact here as he is in Dallas in that system.  

 

Its an NFL draft, there are going to be great players found all up and down it.  You cant sit here and now hate on our staff for trading up to get a guy they coveted on draft night.  Especially given he has flashed a lot of that upside many times this year.  He hasn't had a perfect year, but hes a rookie on a 4 win team.  

 

I mean what is the point of this?  Why cant both teams have gotten a player who can be good for a very long time?  This need to try and always prove the Bills made a mistake is foolish.  When I sit back and look at our draft, the first thing that pops out to me is WOW.  We look like we may have a had a monster draft...landing both Allen and Edmunds, to go along with Taron, Phillips, and Teller who all look like they have the potential to be good rotational guys or better.  

 

Two strong drafts = People still complaining.  I mean people act like a GM is supposed to magically identify who the player on the board still is going to have the absolute best career with each pick.  Its insane the way fans nit pick these drafts once they safely have all the data way after the fact.  

 

Bills had a good draft.  Period.  Move on.